Jump to content


Monogram Classics

Anyone remember these?

  • You cannot reply to this topic
110 replies to this topic

#41 Jim Gibbons

Jim Gibbons

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 762 posts
  • Location:Poughkeepsie, NY
  • Full Name:Jim Gibbons

Posted 22 August 2011 - 12:49 PM

The new issue of Hemmings Classic Car has a great article (a reprint from Special Interest Auto mag from '76) on the history of supercharging. The main difference was that MB originally put the charged air through a pressure carburetor. This is clearly seen on the 500K engine pic Skip provided; the large tubing runs from the supercharger unit to the air intake. In 1937 (the 540K was first introduced in '36), MB changed the plumbing to compress the mixture after the carb into the intake manifold, which was a more common (and likely less expensive and more efficient) way of doing it.

#42 imatt88

imatt88

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 758 posts
  • Location:Hubbell, Michigan, USA
  • Full Name:Ian Matthews

Posted 22 August 2011 - 01:13 PM

Guys, this is great stuff! Great pics and lots of info ^_^

I never realized there was such an interest in the old "Classics"

I would like to see more builds here in the forum

I do have a question...the old Pyro car kits...how are they? Whats the quality like? I've never built one. They're all over eBay. Are they worht picking up?

Is it true that Lindberg reissued a lot of these cars? Are these kits worth picking up?

Inquiring minds what to know B)

Cheers, Ian

Edited by imatt88, 22 August 2011 - 01:14 PM.


#43 sjordan2

sjordan2

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,810 posts
  • Location:Knoxville, TN
  • Full Name:Skip Jordan

Posted 22 August 2011 - 01:21 PM

Guys, this is great stuff! Great pics and lots of info ^_^

I never realized there was such an interest in the old "Classics"

I would like to see more builds here in the forum

I do have a question...the old Pyro car kits...how are they? Whats the quality like? I've never built one. They're all over eBay. Are they worht picking up?

Is it true that Lindberg reissued a lot of these cars? Are these kits worth picking up?

Inquiring minds what to know B)

Cheers, Ian


In general, the Pyro cars are regarded as something of a joke, though they often represent the only versions available of certain cars. If you look at the Auburn Speedster above, you will see that the door panels are not scribed, but in relief. You have to sand them down and scribe. The hoods do not fit fit, so you have to do a tremendous amount of sanding. The only Lindberg reissue version that I can speak to is the Auburn, which indeed has chrome, but needs the same amount of "accurizing" as the original You have to do your homework.

#44 Art Anderson

Art Anderson

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,035 posts

Posted 22 August 2011 - 01:46 PM

Guys, this is great stuff! Great pics and lots of info ^_^

I never realized there was such an interest in the old "Classics"

I would like to see more builds here in the forum

I do have a question...the old Pyro car kits...how are they? Whats the quality like? I've never built one. They're all over eBay. Are they worht picking up?

Is it true that Lindberg reissued a lot of these cars? Are these kits worth picking up?

Inquiring minds what to know B)

Cheers, Ian


Ian, to be fair here: The old Pyro Classic car kits were tooled in the very earliest days of plastic model car kits--first released in 1954-55. In that era, model cars were perhaps best regarded as little more than toys, for young hands (even the promotional models of the time weren't the best for accuracy either). Couple that with industrial pattern makers who, while well versed in their craft, weren't necessarily miniaturists in the sense of those whose work we often see today.

In addition, Pyro wasn't started as a plastic model company, but rather a manufacturer of pyrometers (temperature measuring instruments for manufacturers and the restaurant industry., so plastic model kits were a new thing for them as well. But, for perhaps 8-10 years or so, their model kits stood the test, actually sold pretty well, before the more sophisticated multi-slide core molds came about to produce one piece body shells and the like (yeah, multi-slide mold tooling was out there--one piece promo and diecast tooling was being done of course, but still I suspect a "black art" for most injection molders.

Had the interest in Classic Era cars taken off back in the 60's, and stayed up there on a high plane, I have no doubt that there would have been even better, more sophisticated kits of these cars than actually came about--witness what progress has been made in other areas of model cars in the past 50+ years.

Art

#45 Art Anderson

Art Anderson

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,035 posts

Posted 22 August 2011 - 02:07 PM

Scott,

To begin with, the "number" used in the model name callout on those cars refers to the engine displacement. This concept of fast (or fast looking!) touring cars from Mercedes Benz started, I believe with the 380K (3.8 liter), an example of which lived here in Lafayette for a number of years in the 1950's and 60's, almost exactly the same styling and coachwork as the first Classic Car kit from Italeri--their 500K Cabriolet (which can be more accurately described as a convertible phaeton or convertible victoria, due to its having a rear seat).

About 1935, M-B came out with a considerably larger straight 8, that being the 500K, and within a year or so, the even larger 540K. Now, the styling was anything but "fixed"--rather, on these cars, given their low production numbers, the rolling chassis was constructed at Stuttgart, with M-B supplying the "identifiers" such as radiator shell, perhaps fenders (or perhaps only dictating the styling cues there), dashboards and instrumentation (just as with other "top end" classic-era carmakers of the likes of say, Duesenberg, Rolls Royce, Minerva, Marmon, Hispano-Suiza, even Bugatti.). The bodywork (coachwork) on those swoopy, powerful M-B roadsters, coupes and cabriolets was done largely by known coachbuilders trusted by Mercedes Benz to produce finished cars that enhanced their marque.

So, it's not at all surprising that there were variations, although I do believe that there were some of these cars built, in different years, with identical lines, the only differences being their engines. Addtionally, the individual coachbuilders generally had their own in-house stylist or stylists, so naturally, there was some evolution of lines and shapes. But in any event, only a couple hundred of those cars were built, 1935-39.

Art

#46 my66s55

my66s55

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 513 posts
  • Location:DeBary, Florida

Posted 22 August 2011 - 05:27 PM

I have the Entex 1936 Mercedes 540K in the larger scale. The supercharger on this model is the revised one. Ian, I think I know where your coming from with the "Works of art, nonetheless." I build a model sometimes because of the subject matter, not for its accuracy.

#47 Junkman

Junkman

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,320 posts
  • Location:England
  • Full Name:Christian Pamp

Posted 22 August 2011 - 11:46 PM


No kidding. But as I have read it from my references, the engine-turned finishes were not from the factory. Both of the examples I posted above were from cars that have been criticized as "over-restored."


The colour is also wrong, and is often done wrong in restorations. Black was only used on show cars. Production cars had their engines painted Resedagrün RAL 6011.

Here is an overview of the RAL colours:

https://www.ral-farb...sic-farben.html

#48 Art Anderson

Art Anderson

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,035 posts

Posted 23 August 2011 - 02:24 AM

No kidding. But as I have read it from my references, the engine-turned finishes were not from the factory. Both of the examples I posted above were from cars that have been criticized as "over-restored."


I believe though, that it was not unusual for the original buyers of cars such as these to have "extra" finishing work done on them, perhaps not at the factory, but by the sales branch with whom they dealt.

In the case of Bugatti, "damascening" or engine-turning of engine blocks, cylinder heads, aluminum firewalls was almost standard factory practice though, it it was not an uncommon thing.

Art

#49 sjordan2

sjordan2

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,810 posts
  • Location:Knoxville, TN
  • Full Name:Skip Jordan

Posted 23 August 2011 - 07:07 AM

Here's a Monogram Classic I never saw before.

Posted Image

One additional note: Most of the 540K coachwork was created at the Sindelfingen factory and allowed a great deal of owner customization, and only 70 chassis were bodied by independent coachbuilders. Regarding the 540K Spezial-Roadster, all 26 were designed at Sindelfingen and featured unique body lines and the raked split windscreen.

Edited by sjordan2, 23 August 2011 - 07:26 AM.


#50 Harry P.

Harry P.

    MCM Ohana

  • Administrators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,647 posts
  • Location:NW suburban Chicago
  • Full Name:A mere layman...

Posted 23 August 2011 - 07:31 AM

500K and 540K were both available bodied by the factory (Sindelfingen) or as rolling chassis, bodied by custom coachbuilders. And they were also offered from the factory in several different chassis lengths... so between all the possible combinations of chassis lengths, factory or custom coachwork, there is a lot of variation from one car to the other.

#51 charlie8575

charlie8575

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,628 posts
  • Location:Marlborough, Ma.
  • Full Name:Charlie

Posted 23 August 2011 - 09:58 AM


The colour is also wrong, and is often done wrong in restorations. Black was only used on show cars. Production cars had their engines painted Resedagrün RAL 6011.

Here is an overview of the RAL colours:

https://www.ral-farb...sic-farben.html


Looks like that could be simulated with olive green mixed with white and maybe a little gray or light blue.

Any other ideas for color-matching?

Charlie Larkin

#52 Junkman

Junkman

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,320 posts
  • Location:England
  • Full Name:Christian Pamp

Posted 23 August 2011 - 11:27 AM


Looks like that could be simulated with olive green mixed with white and maybe a little gray or light blue.

Any other ideas for color-matching?

Charlie Larkin


Most paint shops should be able to mix you a tin of RAL 6011. Here it is available ready-made off the shelf from most DIYs.

Edited by Junkman, 23 August 2011 - 11:28 AM.


#53 sjordan2

sjordan2

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,810 posts
  • Location:Knoxville, TN
  • Full Name:Skip Jordan

Posted 23 August 2011 - 11:50 AM

Meanwhile, since we're on this subject, I have often suggested Pocher manuals, which can be downloaded free, as an excellent reference for detailing smaller scale versions like the Monogram and other classics. But I have recently discovered some evidence of Pocher scamming their customers. As we've seen above, there are significant differences between the engine layout of the Mercedes 500K and the 540K. Yet it seems that Pocher did not change the engines between the two models. All Pocher Mercedes models have a 500K engine. This would have been easier to discover if these kits had been produced in the era of the Internet.

Below, to the left, the Pocher 540K, Model K85.
To the right, the Pocher 500K, Model K74.

Posted Image

Edited by sjordan2, 23 August 2011 - 11:56 AM.


#54 Harry P.

Harry P.

    MCM Ohana

  • Administrators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,647 posts
  • Location:NW suburban Chicago
  • Full Name:A mere layman...

Posted 23 August 2011 - 12:06 PM

Meanwhile, since we're on this subject, I have often suggested Pocher manuals, which can be downloaded free, as an excellent reference for detailing smaller scale versions like the Monogram and other classics. But I have recently discovered some evidence of Pocher scamming their customers. As we've seen above, there are significant differences between the engine layout of the Mercedes 500K and the 540K. Yet it seems that Pocher did not change the engines between the two models. All Pocher Mercedes models have a 500K engine. This would have been easier to discover if these kits had been produced in the era of the Internet


All the Pocher Mercedes models have the same identical chassis and engine, only the bodywork and interiors are different.

#55 sjordan2

sjordan2

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,810 posts
  • Location:Knoxville, TN
  • Full Name:Skip Jordan

Posted 23 August 2011 - 12:32 PM

I just contacted Marvin at modelmotorcars.com and he said they have the vertical air cleaner.

#56 Junkman

Junkman

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,320 posts
  • Location:England
  • Full Name:Christian Pamp

Posted 23 August 2011 - 12:37 PM


Hey, Christian, I have tons of material on these cars but I've never seen one of those engines with green paint. Do you have a shot to look at?


They are extremely hard to come by. Original photos are black and white and by now most if not almost all remaining engines have been painted black. It's just nicer at the concourse, since Resedagrün is not exactly an attractive colour. But luckily, I found a photo of an unrestored engine:

Posted Image

#57 sjordan2

sjordan2

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,810 posts
  • Location:Knoxville, TN
  • Full Name:Skip Jordan

Posted 23 August 2011 - 12:56 PM

Interesting how some kit makers take shortcuts and others don't. For example, my Jo-Han Mercedes 500K Special Coupe came with the same chrome and clear sprues as their 500K Special Roadster, with A pillar spotlights and bumper-mounted fog lights, which aren't present on the 1:1 coupe.

On the other hand, I don't know if Monogram ever made a British-based Phantom II Rolls with right-hand drive, but they got it right on the left-hand drive American-made Henley Roadster, which is nearly a mirror image of the engine and chassis layout of the right-hand drive British version.

Posted Image

Edited by sjordan2, 23 August 2011 - 12:59 PM.


#58 imatt88

imatt88

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 758 posts
  • Location:Hubbell, Michigan, USA
  • Full Name:Ian Matthews

Posted 23 August 2011 - 01:07 PM

Awesome stuff....Keep it coming :blink:

#59 Junkman

Junkman

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,320 posts
  • Location:England
  • Full Name:Christian Pamp

Posted 23 August 2011 - 01:12 PM

On the other hand, I don't know if Monogram ever made a British-based Phantom II Rolls with right-hand drive, but they got it right on the left-hand drive American-made Henley Roadster, which is nearly a mirror image of the engine and chassis layout of the right-hand drive British version.



Both Rolls Royces by Monogram were of American prototypes.

#60 sjordan2

sjordan2

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,810 posts
  • Location:Knoxville, TN
  • Full Name:Skip Jordan

Posted 23 August 2011 - 01:23 PM


They are extremely hard to come by. Original photos are black and white and by now most if not almost all remaining engines have been painted black. It's just nicer at the concourse, since Resedagrün is not exactly an attractive colour. But luckily, I found a photo of an unrestored engine:

Posted Image


Thanks. Now I know why everybody repainted the cylinder heads black, though I've seen some in a gunmetal grey.