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In box pictures of new Tamiya 1:12 Enzo......


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#41 Dr. Cranky

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:59 AM

Looks like a great kit and all, but I've tried to build a couple of Enzo's and have ended up pulling out my hair each time, so I would be completely bald and out of 300 bucks on this one. :D :( :lol:

#42 Harry P.

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 05:04 AM

The question then becomes are there enough of us who are willing to buy these to make them a good value for Tamiya. Tamiya knows it's costs and how many they have to sell world wide to make it profitable for them. If is is, we are likely to see more large scale kits. Only the market and time will answer that question.


Yep, that sums it up exactly.

The kit has no inherent value... at least not yet (maybe in the future when it's out of production and hard to find, it'll have a certain "collector value")... it's not made of gold or silver or some material that has a value in and of itself. It's just (mostly) plastic, so any "value" the kit has is a function of how bad the buyer wants it.

In my opinion, $600 is too high an asking price. But that's just me. There are probably people out there who think that the kit is a bargain at $600.

Everyone has to make their own "value judgement."

And one final comment on Pochers and their "value:" At the time they were being produced, Pocher kits were unique. There was no other kit on the market that could compare with the sheer size, complexity and detail of a Pocher (especially the "classic" kits, less so for the "modern" kit-Porsches and Ferraris). Yes, they were hard to build, some of the parts fit was less than spectacular... but the challenge of building a Pocher was pretty much a unique experience in the model car world. There just wasn't anything out there quite like it. And the prices they retailed for gave a pretty good bang for the buck, IMO.

Of course, Pocher prices these days are inflated due to the fact that they aren't produced anymore, there are only a fixed number of them still out there, and unbuilt, complete kits are getting harder and harder to find. So comparing current Pocher prices (which are fluid and not set by the manufacturer) with this Enzo kit's price doesn't work. Only when the Enzo is long out of production and available only from resellers, like Pochers currently are, will we ultimately see how the Enzo stacks up as far as "value" goes.

#43 Chuck Kourouklis

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 05:50 AM

I understand the attraction of a Pocher classic, Harry, to such a degree that I anticipated that factor when I mentioned the typical Pocher Classic's "rewards" earlier. But I have shown you a perspective from which cost comparisons absolutely like-it-or-not DO work, and you haven't exactly refuted that. I made no bones about it being MY perspective, and as you and others have suggested, maybe it's not a perspective shared by many others, but history is irrelevant to an appraisal in absolute terms:

by the same mechanism I could justify spending $280 on the Mercedes 500K/AK in 1986 ($581 in 2012 terms), $300 1989 on the Testors/Pocher Ferrari (550 2012 dollars), and most especially the collector prices o o p kits now command, $600 for a kit that's not quite as imposing but obviously far advanced in its engineering is NOT such a big step. Drop that price to 300, and it's not ANY kind of step.

Explorer, I think I've seen some of those semi-assembled die cast Enzos tickle the $400 range, but only in the same context as the assembly kit is $300 - full MSRP for those was as much as $700. And that Fujimi die cast is an ASSEMBLY KIT - so it doesn't matter if the body medium is die cast or plastic, it's not so easily dismissed from the discussion.

Now as for Italeri releases, I've got their 1/16 F40 which I actually rather like. But I'm having a hard time digging up anything on a 1/12 F40 from them - you got any documentation on that? If they've done one, I'd guess the odds are pretty fair it's the Protar kit - if so, Italeri's own 1/16 kit is far superior overall. Revell AG's release is likely a re-box of the Monogram 1/12 F40 - not terrible, but it recycles the Testarossa's tires to sad, comical effect. If the Protar kit has any use, maybe it's as a wheel and tire donor to the Revell/Monogram kit.

Edited by Chuck Kourouklis, 06 April 2012 - 08:46 AM.


#44 Harry P.

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 06:27 AM

by the same mechanism I could justify spending $280 on the Mercedes 500K/AK in 1986 ($581 in 2012 terms)...


Where are getting that "adjusted for inflation" number? Seems a little exaggerated to me. Is it accurate?

#45 Chuck Kourouklis

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 07:30 AM

Hereya go:

http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

Just for grins, tried this one too:

http://146.142.4.24/...1986&year2=2012

This one says $578:

http://www.dollartim...s/inflation.htm

Edited by Chuck Kourouklis, 06 April 2012 - 07:33 AM.


#46 Harry P.

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 07:35 AM

Man, that's scary.

#47 Chuck Kourouklis

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 07:40 AM

HEH. No argument there...

#48 Ghostmech

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 10:59 AM

I always get at bit of a charge out of these discussions about price/value of a given kit. Having spent a lot of time sales I understand the argument, but see it from a differant persective. Cost is hard dollars. Value is "what is it worth to me?" There are some people that don't like the subject matter and wouldn't pay $5 for it. It has no value to them what so ever. Others love the car and have the budget to accomidate it at almost any price. All the rest of us fall in between. I think(and correct me if I'm wrong) as a magazine editor Harry has the responsablity to devine the relative worth of the kit compared to the quality of the parts and the potential that a buyer is getting a reasonable kit for the money. I believe that his estimation is that compared to other $600 kits, this one might be lacking a little, but compaired to $300 kits it is on the mark.

The rest of us are deciding if our desire to own this kit is met by the price. A lot of us have voted yes and a lot have voted no. Personal value is either there or it is not. For me, yes. I have been waiting for this kit for 10 years and am excited to have it on the work bench. Nobody can question the value to me because it is my opinion and my money. If you don't see the personal value/money in the kit, nobody can argue with that for the same reason.

Is it a good quality Tamiya kit? Yes, no argument. Will they sell out of them quickly? I hope so. The question then becomes are there enough of us who are willing to buy these to make them a good value for Tamiya. Tamiya knows it's costs and how many they have to sell world wide to make it profitable for them. If is is, we are likely to see more large scale kits. Only the market and time will answer that question. Personally, I want to see Tamiya back into making new large scale kits on a regular basis.



I'm right there with you.....I have one already and may buy another for a stash queen. It's all a matter of taste and desire. I have also thought (hoped) that Tamiya would eventually do this as a 1:12 kit since they had so much research available in their archives and having done the beautiful 1:24 kits, as well as the 1:12 semi-finished versions.

Being an owner of a Pocher Bugatti 50T (and previous owner of Rolls, Tessi and F-40) along with many Tamiya 1:12 kits, I don't believe there are any other kits is as well detailed or engineered to the standard this one is (except maybe the Caterham or those Hiro kits.....and how much are those puppies going for nowadays, if you can find them).

Too many who are against this kit are saying it costs $600 and they would never pay that kind of money are not really being honest. I bought this kit at an exchange rate of $288.00US and I suspect when the dust settles, you will find it in the low 300 dollar range at the bigger online hobby outlets in the US. Anyone paying $600.00 for this kit are a bit foolish.... though it may be worth it as a personal assessment to some, there is no need to pay that unless money is no object.

Like I said, I was hoping Tamiya would do this in kit form, and now they have....I got what I had hoped for and the money is well spent in my opinion. If this kit is done right, will be the star of any model contest to be sure.

BTW, still waiting for SMS or others to announce a detail set or FXX conversion....which will make it all the more sweeter!

Edited by Ghostmech, 06 April 2012 - 11:01 AM.


#49 Chuck Kourouklis

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 11:13 AM

I have it on fair authority that SMS is at least working up a CF template set for this kit. B)

It really is a bit overwhelming in your hands. I got mine 'round $360 with shipping, and looking it over, I couldn't help imagining I would not have been upset to drop full retail on it.

There are certain distinctions - for six bills, I would have hoped for something akin to the CF decals Tamiya eventually put in their 1/24 Enzos, pre-tinted taillights and signal lamps, and some gearing reduction on the steering rather than the straight dogleg shaft-to-tierod arrangement that they have; but again, I wouldn't have felt cheated.

At $360, though, I find it worth every penny and beyond.

#50 Harry P.

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 11:23 AM

Is this the same thing as the model we're talking about here?

http://www.tamiya.co...5enzo/index.htm

#51 Chuck Kourouklis

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 11:49 AM

It's based on that, Harry, but no - this is a full assembly kit with all the parts separate, as opposed to that pre-finished, mostly assembled model in the link.

That is the "semi-assembled" model Creative Explorer, Ghostmech, and I were talking about earlier.

Edited by Chuck Kourouklis, 06 April 2012 - 11:55 AM.


#52 Harry P.

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:06 PM

Right, I understand that it's mostly assembled. But is it a "semi-assembled" version of the kit? Or a completely different item?

#53 Chuck Kourouklis

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:28 PM

Actually rather the same, from the looks. The monocoque and the suspension bits look identical to what we get in the kit

I'm guessing that the model in your link had diecast components like the floor pan and engine, and ABS body panels, that are now standard polystyrene in the kit. I think the kit's photoetched components are new too.

Beyond that, we may have very much the same model. The sprues for many of the components aren't quite so "prettied up" as we're used to seeing in Tamiya models conceived from the start as assembly kits, for example.

Edited by Chuck Kourouklis, 06 April 2012 - 12:29 PM.


#54 Scott - Elm City Hobbies

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:58 PM

Too many who are against this kit are saying it costs $600 and they would never pay that kind of money are not really being honest. I bought this kit at an exchange rate of $288.00US and I suspect when the dust settles, you will find it in the low 300 dollar range at the bigger online hobby outlets in the US. Anyone paying $600.00 for this kit are a bit foolish.



Problem is, Tamiya has set the price for the US, MSRP is $600, and dealer cost on them from US suppliers are in the $360 range, so if US mail order is buying them from US suppliers, they won't be anywhere near the $300 range selling them, probably bottom line would be $399, and even then they aren't making much on.

I want one....badly, but even at a $360US dealer cost, I can still buy it "retail" from HLJ with the shipping and it comes in cheaper (mind you not much) than getting it from my suppliers. Might have to "activate" my dealer account with HLJ that they offered me and see if I can get it even cheaper....although I see that they are now sold out!

Edited by Scott - Elm City Hobbies, 06 April 2012 - 12:59 PM.


#55 Harry P.

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 01:45 PM

Actually rather the same, from the looks. The monocoque and the suspension bits look identical to what we get in the kit

I'm guessing that the model in your link had diecast components like the floor pan and engine, and ABS body panels, that are now standard polystyrene in the kit. I think the kit's photoetched components are new too.

Beyond that, we may have very much the same model. The sprues for many of the components aren't quite so "prettied up" as we're used to seeing in Tamiya models conceived from the start as assembly kits, for example.


I would assume these two items (the "semi-assembled" version and the kit) were conceived and engineered as part of the same process, but I find it odd that there are significant differences between the two. Actually I find it odd that the "semi assembled" version is being marketed at all, but whatever. I'm sure they had their reasons.

Interesting. Thanks, Chuck.

#56 Chuck Kourouklis

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:53 PM

Sure thing, Harry. All I can tell you is that the semi-assembled version in that link has been on the market for a few years now, and their diecast F50, some time before that.

It would seem to me that any measure of foresight would have had them planning a kit version from the start. But I halfway wonder if this kit didn't come about after the fact - maybe as a result of popular demand - based on the comparatively jagged tree layout for the dirty bits, and the eight years elapsed since the built model was introduced.

Edited by Chuck Kourouklis, 06 April 2012 - 02:53 PM.


#57 deja-view

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 12:34 AM

The Tamiya Enzo looks like a nice, challenging kit, but I can't understand why Tamiya would put all that into a car with no "history". There are numerous Ferrari subjects that are historically significant and would be far more desireable...especially in that price range. Good resin 1/12 Ferraris with race history are in that price range, but have disappointing detail (except for the wire wheels). Even the F40 is not exactly a high interest car compared to the really amazing Ferraris that were raced or marketed as GT supercars. Same with Porsches.

As far as the comparison with the Pocher F40 and TR....not really any there. The TR that I spent countless hours cutting out the vents and other "should-have-been-open" areas is a nice subject, and now that there are many aftermarket parts available, is a mediocre kit at best. I had an F40 and sold it because it was just too much work to get it up to a fully detailed model. The only worse attempt at newer cars by Pocher was the Porsche 993. I hope the Tamiya Enso doesn't require all the scratchbuilding and extra aftermarket parts that those Pochers do.

And, the Pocher "classics"? Not so much. I have had several, but only built the Mercedes 500k(?) all the way through. I had to add real leather because that seat vinyl krap was....krap. The radiator shell and other stainless metal parts were horrible..should have been chromed from the start. Pocher paid me to build the Mercedes for the Blackhawk Museum back in the '90's, and I had to constantly bug them for replacement parts. The one I really liked was the Alfa racer in white and blue. But,,,much like the others...the plastic body parts were warped and just didn't fit without a lot of dickering. I sold it (them) after getting disgusted. Too bad because I really like the look of the car. It would have made a really cool street rod!

To me, there are too many better kits of better subjects out there in that price range...and less. The Enzo? Eh! :P

Oh...someone mentioned the Protar F40. I had both the solid body and the clearbody. Neither were worth the effort or the cost ($100+).

Edited by deja-view, 07 April 2012 - 12:46 AM.


#58 Ghostmech

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 04:31 AM

The Tamiya Enzo looks like a nice, challenging kit, but I can't understand why Tamiya would put all that into a car with no "history". There are numerous Ferrari subjects that are historically significant and would be far more desireable...especially in that price range. Good resin 1/12 Ferraris with race history are in that price range, but have disappointing detail (except for the wire wheels). Even the F40 is not exactly a high interest car compared to the really amazing Ferraris that were raced or marketed as GT supercars. Same with Porsches.

As far as the comparison with the Pocher F40 and TR....not really any there. The TR that I spent countless hours cutting out the vents and other "should-have-been-open" areas is a nice subject, and now that there are many aftermarket parts available, is a mediocre kit at best. I had an F40 and sold it because it was just too much work to get it up to a fully detailed model. The only worse attempt at newer cars by Pocher was the Porsche 993. I hope the Tamiya Enso doesn't require all the scratchbuilding and extra aftermarket parts that those Pochers do.

And, the Pocher "classics"? Not so much. I have had several, but only built the Mercedes 500k(?) all the way through. I had to add real leather because that seat vinyl krap was....krap. The radiator shell and other stainless metal parts were horrible..should have been chromed from the start. Pocher paid me to build the Mercedes for the Blackhawk Museum back in the '90's, and I had to constantly bug them for replacement parts. The one I really liked was the Alfa racer in white and blue. But,,,much like the others...the plastic body parts were warped and just didn't fit without a lot of dickering. I sold it (them) after getting disgusted. Too bad because I really like the look of the car. It would have made a really cool street rod!

To me, there are too many better kits of better subjects out there in that price range...and less. The Enzo? Eh! :P

Oh...someone mentioned the Protar F40. I had both the solid body and the clearbody. Neither were worth the effort or the cost ($100+).


No History?? How about the fact that when it was introduced, it was the first Ferrari to be directly taken from their F1 programs.....the F1 influence is obvious...unlike other cars which took some queues and technical bits from them....this thing looks like an F1 car if an F1 car was morphed into a passenger street car.

Another fact is that it's the only car named after the founder himself...in fact it was (at the time) the ultimate supercar and Ferrari felt it fitting enough to name it Enzo. With a storied past like Ferrari has, for them to design the ultimate Ferrari and name it in honor of the man himself is history in itself. Even though the Enzo is starting to show it's age and will soon be superseded with a new, more powerful supercar, it still ranks as one of the world's most impressive cars ever built.

I agree with your assessments on the Pocher TR and F40....even though they were big and had a lot of parts, they were also crude in some areas and toylike despite the parts count....and that is why I sold mine many years ago (Even though I wish I hadn't now since they have really appreciated in value.) I still have a Bugatti 50T in the box though :)

I suspect, depending on how well this one sells, we may see their other semi-finished models in full kit form in the future. It makes a lot of sense since they are already invested in the drawings & molds. I realize they had to probably redesign some areas and make a few new molds (or at least adjust them) but much of the overall effort is there already, it just needs repackaging.

Edited by Ghostmech, 07 April 2012 - 05:32 AM.


#59 Chuck Most

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 07:12 AM

There are some people that don't like the subject matter and wouldn't pay $5 for it..

I'm not wild about the subject myself, but if I could find one for five bucks, I'd jump on it even if I HATED the subject matter. :lol: Think about it, I could turn around and flip it to someone who does like the subject matter, and even if I sold it for 25% of its retail, I'd be making off like a bandit. ;)

But you do have a good point- it all boils down to the subject matter, perceived value, and of course how bad you wanna land one on your workbench.

#60 Chuck Kourouklis

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 03:19 PM

I'm good with the subject - but I'd be better still with the same treatment of Tamiya's semi-assembled 288GTO.

PLEEEEAASE, Tamiya-san.