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Lucky 13-The 30Sumt'n Rod


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#21 torinobradley

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 11:25 AM

You are too welcome! Thanks for the kudos! I've been wanting to do something like this for a while. I gots an idea of a rig rat type truck with a huge turbo V16 made out of big block fords.

I love the progress so far! Keep it up. I can't wait to see how it looks sitting in that bay.

#22 mrm

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 03:48 PM

I love the progress so far! Keep it up. I can't wait to see how it looks sitting in that bay.


Thank you. It may be a while before you see this puppy with the engine installed. There is a lot of work that needs to be done to it.
Meanwhile, I did some more on the engine (which by the way I absolutely love now).
first I wanted to make a different air filter. So using the original one from the Ferrari engine as a base I built upon it. It is just from styrene plastic, but I made little lips on the inside, so photoetched mesh could be fitted around it later. I also did not like how plain it looks, so I started scratching my head for ideas how to make it look better. I wanted something custom and not found on any other car, just like the engine.

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I was born on Friday the 13th and it is my lucky number. Long time ago I made a design to be tattooed on my arm.

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So I thought it would be cool to put it on the air filter somehow. So I took the above picture, loaded it on my computer and then printed it in a size where just the 13 was the size I needed. Then I changed the blade on my knife and cut out the 13 and with a piece of scotch tape I put it on top of a very thin sheet styrene. Then I traced again the design with my knife. Needless to say this took a bit of time and a few deep breaths :lol: . But then I had a perfect copy from thin plastic.

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Next I glued the design and some really thin strips on top of the filter to create my personalized engine piece. The added strips still need to have their edges sanded lightly. And I have not decided yet if the filter and the valve covers will be chromed or color coded to the rest of the model.

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Now back to the drawing board to figure out the headers.
Thank you for looking.

Edited by mrm, 23 October 2012 - 03:52 PM.


#23 mrm

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 09:27 PM

So, I played with different exhaust ideas. I was thinking that I should go the regular solder route, but then decided, that instead of making my life complicated, I could adapt two sets of the stock exhaust. So I did and I am very happy with the result. Besides I like how the whole thing will make people take a second look because of how easy it is to miss how much bigger the engine is once installed. It still needs a lot of work on the manifolds to "blend" them together, but nothing I expect to give me trouble.

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I also did a little bit of body work on the body. I cut out the sides, so now the hood sides follow the the door jamb lines. Then I filled with sheet styrene the holes on each side and puttied everything.
This is how it looks when it is mocked up with a frame/body/engine.

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Note that the intake is now not positioned correctly, because the filter hits the firewall. If I had left the stock filter, I would not have this problem. But on the bright side, now I have a good reason to modify the firewall, so it curves around the filter on top. It will be quite a bit of work, but all worth it at the end I hope.

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#24 Droppedgmc

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 10:36 PM

looking Great!

#25 torinobradley

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 03:22 AM

That motor does fill up that engine bay nicely. And it's exotic and detroit! Terrific execution!

Your header solution is great. I just spent the whole evening creating headers on my USRRC 289 Cobra so I know what a pain building them for such a tight space is.

Have you thought about any other design elements for this V12 beast? Some wide wire wheels with knock-offs might be in order to hint at what lies beneath. Tan interior with red or blue seats? Quad exhaust tips out the tail? Wood-grained steering wheel?

#26 mrm

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 07:57 AM

Thank you guys.
Andrew, I have not thought about these things yet. I have a really spontaneous style of building models. I start with an idea and then make it. Then the next step is done around it etc., etc.. This way the model evolves as it goes and it is not planned ahead. The engine is the perfect example. The other thing is that the details you mentioned are all Ferrari clues and this model at this point has no Ferrari connection at all. See, this model did not start with the idea of making a Ferrari rod. It just started as a "what-if" mixing the 32 with a 34.
The only thing I know so far is that it will have a quick change solid axle with an unconventional suspension set up. I have not decided on the front yet. Figuring out the mounting of the engine has a lot to do with that, as it would determine if I can achieve the stance and look with a solid axle or I would need an independent set up. I may have to reradius the rear wheel wells too, in order to make its butt sit lower and still have the rears tucked a little. Now this is a mod I am definitely NOT looking forward to.


#27 Ace-Garageguy

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 08:30 AM

What you're doing looks great, and I like your idea of building a pushrod V-12 from a Ford smallblock V8.

There is one little problem however, if this were a 1:1 project. Due to things like firing order, static and dynamic balance, and vibration, most all V8s have 90degrees between cylinder banks, and V12s (and V6s) typically have 60degrees. A 90degree V12 made from V8s would be inherently out of balance and would require, at least, a very special crankshaft with offset rod-bearing journals (like the even-fire 90degree V6 engines) to run smoothly. Just thought you'd like to know, in case you didn't, and in case someone knowledgeable in engine design notices. Always good to have a story prepared in advance.

PS. Ford did make a 60degree V6 in many displacements and head configurations. Sometimes called the Cologne engine, some versions have a visual similarity to the little pushrod V8s, but with various port spacings. Two of these could conceivably be the real-world basis for a 60degree V-12.

#28 mrm

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 09:56 AM

What you're doing looks great, and I like your idea of building a pushrod V-12 from a Ford smallblock V8.

There is one little problem however, if this were a 1:1 project. Due to things like firing order, static and dynamic balance, and vibration, most all V8s have 90degrees between cylinder banks, and V12s (and V6s) typically have 60degrees. A 90degree V12 made from V8s would be inherently out of balance and would require, at least, a very special crankshaft with offset rod-bearing journals (like the even-fire 90degree V6 engines) to run smoothly. Just thought you'd like to know, in case you didn't, and in case someone knowledgeable in engine design notices. Always good to have a story prepared in advance.

PS. Ford did make a 60degree V6 in many displacements and head configurations. Sometimes called the Cologne engine, some versions have a visual similarity to the little pushrod V8s, but with various port spacings. Two of these could conceivably be the real-world basis for a 60degree V-12.


Thanks Bill. I honestly did not know these things. But this is exactly what I love about building scale models. Our imagination is the only limit. I am sure that if I was to build the thing in 1:1 it would have taken considerable amount of money, but it would be achievable to build an engine like this. It reminds me of the Cizeta Moroder with its V16 engine it was engineered from the ground up as two flat planeV8s sharing a single block, mounted transversely, with gearing between the two providing a single output from the center of the engine assembly to the longitudinaltransmission. Things like this are definitely possible if one has the financial backing needed. And having seen what sort of things are coming out in the street rod world lately, I would definitely not rule out the possibility of creation of such a rod.

#29 mrm

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 11:53 AM

I found the info Ace-Garageguy provided very interesting, so I decided to do some reading about it. Me being me, I wanted to see could an engine like the one I build be made and has anything like that been done before. Two engines popped up right away.
The Ciseta 16V, which is best described as weird. Basically it is two Ferrari V8 engines put together. But it has one solid 90 degree block with one enormous crank, four separate heads and four distributors, but timing and firing order as one single 16 cylinder engine. I am not even going into the (amazing) transmission part as it is irrelevant. Their website is still up and running and claims that for about $600K they can still build you a brand new one.

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Then comes the Callaway Cyclone V16
4.0-liter 16 cylinder 90° V angle, 5 valve / cylinder DOHC

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Apparently, engines like this not only could be build, but have been made in the past and in more than one piece.
Now that I have my doubts about the authenticity of such a concept engine, I can get back to the chassis of this thing. There are quite few things I need to figure out, which is the hard part for me. In order to fit better in the chassis and under the floor, I may have to change the transmission too. For the rear suspension I want to make a set up like the one used in Boyd Coddington's Alumatub. It will be fun.

#30 Ace-Garageguy

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 12:50 PM

It's really great to see you taking an interest in how an engine like you've put together for your model could be made in 1:1. As you've found out, it can, but it's expensive.

Another interesting engine project was Franco Sbarro's 1982 one-off V-12 made from two Kawasaki Z1300 inline six-cylinder engines, supposedly on a common crankshaft with a specially cast block, though I've never actually seen the engine itself. It was built to power his Super 12, which kinda looked like a cross of a VW Golf and a Renault R5.

The 3 liter BRM H-16 F1 engine of '66 was essentially two BRM flat-eights geared together on a common output shaft.

And there are many more even stranger ones out there.

#31 mrm

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 09:39 PM

Thank you Bill.
I knew quite a bit about the Cizeta (I saw it shown in Geneva in '91), but I had never heard of that Colloway before. Sbarro is a nutcase. He created that Design Academy in Switzerland I believe, that makes some insane cars. Most of them are pretty crappy tho. He was at the top of his game back in the late '80s - early '90s IMHO. His Super 12 is way cool tho.

#32 tubbs

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:53 AM

The steelies are the regular wheels from the 32 5 window kit, but the rears are fitted in a custom aluminum sleeve and then wrapped in an Alumacoupe tires.


thanks for the info. helps out. this is turning out very cool. great work!

#33 Duntov

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 02:50 PM

Nice wheels and engines..... lots of decisions to make!!!

#34 mrm

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:19 PM

Nice wheels and engines..... lots of decisions to make!!!


Thank you. The engine is decided. The rear suspension and frame set up are decided too. I just opened up the trunk too and made the new windshield frame. Just changed the transmission too and started making a new oil pan.
Pictures coming soon.
I am still on the fence about the front end and interior. I really want a solid axle look, but with a modern twist. There are two different set ups on real cars that I really like, but I don't know if I can pull it off with the space I have in the front. One involves torsion bars and the other air bags. The idea of both is to eliminate any visible shocks and to make like the front axle is just like there by itself.
Here is the first one, which is on the Allumatub. No visible shocks at all, just a solid axle and radius rods.

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The one from Rob Lowe's Deuce I can't find good pictures of, but basically it has a Z-d frame in the front and air bags under the grille shell instead of spring and two pairs of radius rods - one on the outside and one on the inside of the frame rails.

#35 bryan_m

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:30 PM

great reference pic! thank you........

cheers
bryan

#36 mrm

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 07:08 PM

No problem Bryan.
Here is what is going to be at the rear for sure.

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#37 bryan_m

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 02:10 AM

nice! any more pics of that frame.......i have such a huge collection of reference pics, and diagrams its insane!

bryan

#38 crazyrichard

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 03:20 AM

i love this build very very cool to watch

#39 mrm

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 05:36 AM

Thank you Richard.

Bryan, I have many pictures of the car, but of the frame this one is the only other picture I have

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It is a very simple and plain chassis. That is the beauty of it. Also it allows for a very, very low ride without any fancy work on the rails.

#40 mrm

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:59 AM

I have been making steady but slow progress on this build while fighting a nasty cold.
I did quite a bit of body work on the coupe. The most notable being the modified firewall which now curves around the air filter.

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Then I started playing with the chassis. The frame now has all its cross members relocated, it is quite short at the rear end (ends before the rear axle) and has new cross members made at the rear.

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Next I had to make the rear axle with a quick change. The quick change came from the parts box and then received styrene rod axle with some aluminum tubing sleeves. Then I cut four identical flanges from thin styrene sheet. Both the radius rods and the coil over shocks will be mounted to those.

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Here they are attached to the axle

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And this is how the rear end should look like when put together.

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Now I need to make the radius rods themselves and two shorter ones for the top of the diff to triangulate the whole thing.

Thanks for looking.