New kits with flaws.

[Art Anderson]

David said it all in words I could never improve on! So take it to the bank guys--the man knows whereof he speaks!

Art

[Ace-Garageguy]

When all is said and done, marketing peoples' arbitrary deadlines notwithstanding, it's MUCH better to wait a little while and get the big bugs worked out BEFORE going to production. All anyone has to do to see the truth of this is to look at GM's little ignition switch fiasco. Why is this simple and obvious fact so hard to grasp?

I'll continue to BUY WITHOUT COMPLAINING anything Moebius puts out if it's up to the level they've achieved so far. I don't care if it misses a projected release date.

Get it close to right but "late", I'll buy several. Get it badly wrong but on-time, I won't buy any at all, EVER.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[Atmobil]

What amazes me the most is that someone that acctually work on designing kits are on a modelfoum and taking feedback from potential buyers. That must be a truly unique situation. So thank you very much Dave!!

I don't have to many Moebius kits yet, only the 53 Hudson and 55 Chrysler (and I have not built them yet) but what I have seen from looking in the boxes are pleasing me. Lots of crisp details and it looks like it got good partsfit aswell.

For me, crisp details and partsfit are the most importent things on a new kit. That is NEW as in new tool and not reissue of an old kit. I have plenty of old kits that do not have great partsfit and crisp details and are just as happy to build them aswell but It's great to open up a brand new kit and look at all the parts and see all the little details that are there.

If it's a 100% accurate or not is not that important as I can always rectify things if I want to when building (after all, I am a modelBUILDER and not a modelASSEMBLER). I sure hope that Moebius are making good enough money on the kits to keep releasing new stuff. From what I have seen so far, things are looking very good.

As for the prices of kits, I can't complain as kits have always been quite expensive here in Norway compared to the U.S. and in my eyes quality always costs money. A Rolls Royce was always a lot more expensive to buy than a everyday Ford because it was a much better car. The same goes for everything else in life aswell, you can't expect quality for bottom dollar.

And the modelkit hobby is lot cheaper than other "hobbies" like Golf or 1:1 motorsport...I guess there are guys on this forum that may have been trying their luck on a racetrack at some point....."Did you blow up that brand new 20 000$ engine this weekend?"

And, as a suggestion to Dave. How about a kit of the second generation Ford Econoline (68-74)?

[DanR]

Excellent insight into your process, Dave. I can't speak for everyone here, but I'm just happy to have a kit of a car that I really like. I can overlook flaws if the finished product captures the overall look and feel of the vehicle.

[keyser]

I hear you on blowing up the motor thing. Still, preferable to getting punted into the wall by someone using my door as an apex

And more often than not brand new it was the builders issue if it blew up. I have a nice expensive paperweight on my desk showing miracle of hurrying when putting in valve retainers. Offered a "free" motor build once we pointed out the issues. Do it right the first time,

I'm a builder too, not an assembler (or finisher lol), but I don't like redoing parts that the manufacturer should get right. I have a ton of Hiro kits, and even they have issues at times, but rarely basic things. I also have very high end resin that is wrong. Which promptly gets sold, and not bought again.

Plastic kits are cheap hobbies, but it still has to be accurate. Proportional that's hard to fix, like a roof, or DLO, or even a windowsill that doesn't taper enough, which necessitates fixing body, both sides, and interior with reconstruction, probably 30-40' just to fix something that should have been correct on a brand new tool. Really? Why do I need to fix someone else's screwup? People say be happy we even have a kit, or form your own company. Idiotic.

Nice work Mr. Metzger, you rendered Art speechless. Been waiting decades to see that

[Bennyg]

Thank you so much Dave. Thanks for taking the time to explain how things happen. I'm thankful that a modelling company is producing new stuff that I'm interested in. As soon as I seen the Lonestar in development I knew I would get a couple. Picking those lonestars up from the post office and cracking the box open was just awesome. I can't wait to see what's in store for truck (& car) modelers in the future. Cheers.

Ben

[1930fordpickup]

Dave thank you for the awesome post.

[1930fordpickup]

I've been impressed favorably across the board with the quality and accuracy of Moebius' offerings.

I also think it's incredibly funny that the new-improved-oh-so-much-better digital and outsourcing means of producing models is being blamed for the delays in production and poor accuracy (I assume in your competitors' products), as all of this new-improved stuff was SUPPOSED to speed and simplify production and lower costs. Interesting how that has all played out in reality, eh?

I'm also fully aware of what IS and is NOT possible in working in CAD, and how long it takes to perform "corrections". Again, CAD was SUPPOSED to SPEED the development of product and streamline the correction process, and the fact that digital "drawings" can be transmitted instantly to just about anywhere on the globe, corrected in a matter of minutes or hours at most, and re-transmitted for approval (we used to have to wait for our drawing corrections and revisions to be physically mailed, AFTER they were drawn by hand and THEN turned into blueprints... if you recall) would make one wonder where, why and HOW the bottlenecks are occurring.

Sorry for deleting some of your post ACE , I did this because this is my thoughts to this part of your post. The delays are caused because every shop has many customers. If it takes me two or three days,minutes or months to relay a change you have to work on something else to make money. The longer I wait the farther I go back in line. That is what happens anymore. The distance between all the parties also increases the delay.

[PatRedmond]

Well said, Dave.

[checkmate]

Very interesting read, thanks Dave for taking the time to outline the process involved in developing and producing a kit.

[W-409]

Thank You, Dave! That was an excellent and informative post for everyone.

Personally, I've very rarely complained about the flaws that a model kit "has". Maybe it's because usually the "flaws" are very minimal and it's the modelers that make the flaws much bigger than they really are by complaining on different forums for 30 pages or something like that (Yep, I'm referring to the Revell LX Mustang thread). I know I have a bad eye for those problems, but I can see nothing wrong with almost any of these new kits. The Mustang's top looked spot on to me until I saw the correct resin body that was done. Still the difference is very small between them and I can't see nothing really wrong with that Mustang. The grille on that new '67 Camaro is a bit off, but it should be an easy fix. Starsky & Hutch Torino's rear side window is a bit off as well, but not so much that it would be worth skipping building the kit. To me the shots of those Moebius Pontiacs, for example, look perfect.

But don't worry Dave, even if a perfect kit was produced, the guys in the internet will find problems with it!

[tim boyd]

Dave...thanks for the excellent explanation of the model development process. This post should become a "must read" for anyone who wishes to critique a newly-developed model kit.

For the rest of us: Dave's explanation is a good summary of the issues faced by most model car kit development organizations, at least the ones I have dealt with. It also helps to remember that these companies are all businesses - they have to generate a financial return on the investment they make in these kits, otherwise they will no longer be in business.

Sometimes, that is the most difficult issue faced by model company development personnel - who in many cases, are also model builders themselves. Most that I have dealt with over the years are much like Dave is - a highly enthusiastic ambassador for our wants, who is dedicated to trying to do the right thing for us. Many times, the most difficult decisions they face are over when to stop refining/correcting and "push the button and publish". The economics involved are also a huge issue to manage. As is the issue of asking the dedicated artisans in China (and they are artisans), to recreate a miniature replica of an artifact that they have never seen in real life. You can always keep correcting and refining, but if the kit never comes out at all, then nobody wins.

So big thanks again, Dave, for taking the time to educate this audience on some of the challenges involved in producing model kits.

TIM

[Guest]

What amazes me is after Dave's lesson, some here still want to take task with little issues. I just don't get it.

[Jeff Johnston]

Very informative post and nice to see the top guy weigh in on some details that we may not be aware of. We'll all complain sometimes, and that will never change. Personally I think the stuff I've seen form Mobius shows the amount of scrutiny that goes into these kits. Very accurate and well engineered kits.

Now how about whipping up a nice 67 Galaxie Dave ? (sorry I can't resist saying that at least once a month...anyone who knows me for more than 10 minutes knows my love of the 67 Galaxie !)

[Ace-Garageguy]

What amazes me is after Dave's lesson, some here still want to take task with little issues. I just don't get it.

BIG issues.

Rooflines 2" wrong, that spoil the look of the car (to anyone who has any concept of what the REAL one looks like). A 1/32 scale engine in a 1/24 scale kit. Inexcusable. 2 Dodge Hemis, current production engines for which factory drawings DO EXIST, EASILY ACCESSED, that SHOULD BE IDENTICAL IN TWO KITS FROM THE SAME MANUFACTURER, but are in actuality 1/4 inch different in length.

Gross errors ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE. People are PAID TO GET THIS STUFF RIGHT. WE PAY FOR IT every time we buy a model.

Small errors, no problem. Fix it or ignore it. GROSS ERRORS...may as well buy Palmer kits.

[Guest]

Yes, the a Revell 70 AAR Cuda was inexcusable, but the grille on the 67 Camaro is easily fixed, and 1/4" difference in length? Not worth complaining about.

Edited December 21, 2014 by midnightprowler

[unclescott58]

Dave thank you for the awesome post.

I agree with Andy and most others here. Dave I always appreciate the fact that you keep us informed. I love Moebuis kits. I'm very happy with the recent Revell releases. I enjoy the old reissues Round 2 keeps offering us. I understand the prices and inflation over time. And enjoying this hobby more than ever. It's a great time to be collecting and/or building models. I've said it before. We are living in a Golden Age of modeling. And this form of communication is one of the reasons it is that Golden Age.

Keep up the good work. And thanks Dave. Oh.... And I forgive you for any mistakes you might make. For what ever that's worth.

Scott

Edited December 21, 2014 by unclescott58

[Jordan White]

Yes, the a Revell 70 AAR Cuda was inexcusable, but the grille on the 67 Camaro is easily fixed, and 1/4" difference in length? Not worth complaining about.

[Ace-Garageguy]

I think it's worth complaining about since, as he said, it's the same engine from the same model company, yet for some reason there's a discrepancy that shouldn't be there. Plus in the 1/24 & 1/25 scale world, a quarter inch is a pretty large amount. That's roughly 6 inches in 1:1.

Exactly. Thank you.

AND...EXACTLY the SAME drawings and tooling COULD HAVE BEEN USED IN BOTH KITS...SAVING MONEY.

That's why all the cost-control excuses just don't wash.

Again, Moebius is doing a GREAT job in spite of the difficulties. The other guys need to watch how it's done.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[Guest]

Each to their own. I don't get out a ruler and measure every stupid part.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Each to their own. I don't get out a ruler and measure every stupid part.

Neither do I. But I don't build every model out of the box, either.

You CAN'T swap the ridiculous WAY TOO LARGE late-model Hemi engine into anything and have it fit like it would in reality. NOR can you use the ridiculously TOO SMALL AMT Hemi from the Ala Kart. It's a tiny little joke of a thing.

I build REAL CARS. I build MODELS LIKE I BUILD REAL CARS. These things matter. I KNOW what's right, and I NOTICE immediately.

I DON'T GET PAID TO DO CRAPP WORK. WHY SHOULD I EXCUSE IT IN THE MODELS I SPEND MY HARD-EARNED MONEY ON ???

If I made a 6" or a 2" or EVEN A 1/4" MISTAKE, I WOULDN'T BE EMPLOYED VERY LONG.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

This headlight looks like the first-time effort of someone trying to learn...NOT the output of a supposedly world-class model company. Real car on right. Do you consider this to be acceptable??

[1930fordpickup]

I understand where ACE is coming from but like he has said this is not a Moebius issue so it needs to be posted elsewear on the forum.

[Ace-Garageguy]

I understand where ACE is coming from but like he has said this is not a Moebius issue so it needs to be posted elsewear on the forum.

I think it's good to be able to compare and contrast the excellent work Moebius has been consistently doing in SPITE of the difficulties that Mr. Metzner has cited, with the less-than stellar work some other companies have been content to let slide, and that many seem to want to excuse as "too hard", "doesn't matter", etc.

Moebius models look right, they look like what they're supposed to be, they don't need excuses for being oddly proportioned or too big or too little, and they fit together quite well.

If Moebius can do it this well every time, excuses from or for the other guys just don't fly.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[Guest]

I think it's good to be able to compare and contrast the excellent work Moebius has been consistently doing in SPITE of the difficulties that Mr. Metzner has cited, with the less-than stellar work some other companies have been content to let slide, and that many seem to want to excuse as "too hard", "doesn't matter", etc.

Moebius models look right, they look like what they're supposed to be, they don't need excuses for being oddly proportioned or too big or too little, and they fit together quite well.

If Moebius can do it this well every time, excuses from or for the other guys just don't fly.

This we agree on!