In box pictures of new Tamiya 1:12 Enzo......

[Harry P.]

And if I'm gonna drop fifteen hunnert on a Pocher or 3 bills on a Monogram eighth-scaler, there's no way to judge this kit by those standards as anything but a bargain at six bucks and a gold-plated STEAL at 360.

$600 MSRP? A little over the top, IMO.

"Street price" around $300? That's more like it. If I had an interest in the subject, I'd feel fine at $300.

[Chuck Kourouklis]

To each they's own, Harry - but if there's any currently produced car model on the market that can justify 600, this is the one, far as I can see. It gathers the collective wisdom of Tamiya's forty years in 1/12, and their recent foray into big-scale diecast, and combines them into arguably the most jaw-dropping plastic automotive kit they've ever done.

[The Creative Explorer]

I'm sorry, but I still don't see the 300/600 dollar value of this kit. It might be nice, but next to be a little to late (the succesor of the Enzo will be anounced next year) it should have way more detail than I can see on the pictures.

Even tough the other Tamiya 1/12 kits are quite old, they have a similar level of detail. Take for example the Porsche 934 or 935. True, it doesn't come with white-metal, but it comes with PE and cost half of the Enzo.

Different subject: but where do you pay 1500 for a Pocher? I bought my Testarossa for 75 and my Mercedes for 350-ish. And the Mercedes has 2600 parts, although not as good engineered as a Tamiya (<----Understatement!)

[Chuck Kourouklis]

Wow - I'd LOVE to see where you can get an unassembled TR for 75 any more - if you're really lucky, you may be able to snatch one up in a blue moon for about $400 or so from the right auctioneer. Got my 500 K/AK for around $280 - but that was in 1986. Now that the factory's burned down, figure $700 on up for the Alfas 'n Mercedes kits, and four figures minimum for something like the Roller Ambassador or any of the Bugattis unassembled. Heck, the F40 and 911 kits now routinely scrape the $1000 ceiling in new condition.

Now honestly, I don't know how much more detail anybody could want from this Enzo kit even from the pictures; it has three times the plastic parts count and LOOKS that way to anyone paying attention. And still, once you have the kit in your hands, you'll perceive a whole lot that you don't see in photos. There's a complete plumbing scheme for fuel and brakes that you might miss from the pics, hinge-dampers for the doors, and an operational pushrod/bellcrank suspension. But more than any of this, there's tooling refinement to the plastic parts that no 934-5 (or even Renault RE20) can match.

Only the Caterham kits approach this same league - but heck, maybe you gotta examine one of these personally to see how.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Chuck Kourouklis

[Harry P.]

Different subject: but where do you pay 1500 for a Pocher? I bought my Testarossa for 75 and my Mercedes for 350-ish. And the Mercedes has 2600 parts, although not as good engineered as a Tamiya (<----Understatement!)

When was that? And were the kits complete and unstarted? Or old build-ups?

Typical Pocher prices for complete, unbuilt kits these days range from roughly $400-500 on the low end (the 1907 Fiat) to near $3,000 for the Bugattis. But you can't compare prices between rare kits that haven't been manufactured in decades with a brand-new, currently available kit... it's apples and oranges. You have to judge the "value" of the Enzo on it's own merits, regardless of what Pochers go for. I agree $600 MSRP is pushing it, but like I said, if the subject interested me I'd definitely spring for $300 or so.

[Chuck Kourouklis]

But you CAN look back to when those kits were available and make adjustments.

Case in point: The Pocher 1/8 Ferrari F40, which we'll round down to $500 new, 1992 MSRP - that's over 800 dollars in 2012 terms.

Now with the Pocher kit, you get painted diecast panels that might slide by without refinishing if you're not feeling too critical, a more imposing mass, and a roughly similar parts count and number of operating features.

But detail has been held as the comparative standard here, and you need another couple hundred dollars aftermarket to match what the Tamiya Enzo gives you in the box. Let's make a rough adjustment for scale and imagine a 1/12 F40 (one doesn't need to imagine actually, 'cause there WAS a Fujimi kit like this), for 2/3 the cost at 2/3 the scale. It's a bogus line of reasoning, because it's probably not a lot cheaper to tool up a 1/12 kit with the same design and parts count, but let's just suppose - still, around $530 for rather less than what Tamiya gives you in terms of precision and, in all likelihood, buildability.

And actually, from another perspective as a consumer, oh yes you can compare currently available to o o p - they're all car model kits, and thus all apples, just a different variety of apple from one to the next. You can be of a mindset that NOTHING justifies a price beyond X dollars - or, you can hold the opinion that a perverse, diabolical-to-build Pocher kit justifies four figures in its rarity and rewards. And it's a VERY short trip from that perspective to figure that a new kit justifies 600 dollars for the superiority of its engineering. At least in my mind.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Chuck Kourouklis

[The Creative Explorer]

When was that? And were the kits complete and unstarted? Or old build-ups?

Typical Pocher prices for complete, unbuilt kits these days range from roughly $400-500 on the low end (the 1907 Fiat) to near $3,000 for the Bugattis. But you can't compare prices between rare kits that haven't been manufactured in decades with a brand-new, currently available kit... it's apples and oranges. You have to judge the "value" of the Enzo on it's own merits, regardless of what Pochers go for. I agree $600 MSRP is pushing it, but like I said, if the subject interested me I'd definitely spring for $300 or so.

That is why I said: different subject. ;-). I know it is not in comparising

I bought the TR in '07. But truth be told it was a complete, but started kit. The Mercedes was bought less than 3 weeks ago, new & unbuilt. It even had the metal wirewheels.

@Chuck; best is to compare the Enzo with the Revell Mustang. They are both brand-new toolings.

Enzo: 300 $

Mustang: 40 $

Yes, the Mustang is a whole lot less detailled, Yes, the Mustang is crude in some aspects.

But

The Mustang is a brand-new car and it cost almost 8 times less!

But, where my point leads to: a 1/24 Mustang from Revell is about 20 dollars, a 1/24 Tamiya Enzo around 50-60. That is less then 3 times more expensive.

2 notes to your previous post: Revell and Italeri had the 1/12 F40, Fujimi had a 1/16. And the Pochers were not prepainted, except for TR and F40, the classic-line wasn't diecast or prepainted.

Edited April 5, 2012 by The Creative Explorer

[Chuck Kourouklis]

Sorry if I somehow came across that way, but I never meant to imply that the classics or even the Volvo truck were pre-painted diecast. "The Pocher kit" in that sentence above referred specifically to the example I brought up in the F40.

As for 1/12 F40s, check your resources again - Fujimi also did a 1/12 painted diecast kit F40 that was available just before the Pocher F40. Enter it in a google search and you'll find it existed, though info on it is scarce:

Were you aware of Protar's 1/12 F40? If not, you didn't miss much there; that thing was a wreck.

Yeah, I know a thing or two about Revell's GT500, and anyone who's reasonably deft can make that kit look much more complex than it actually is, with paint alone. I wouldn't even call it crude, just simplified, and it's one of my favorites in a long time.

As for your 1/25-24 examples, if we're going to reduce it to the kind of math you appear to suggest, let's fix the Enzo price at $50. You get about 70% more parts, opening doors, and a great deal of extra tooling precision for 2 - 2.5 times the cost of a 1/25 Revell Mustang, and that's just in the case of the Enzo and the LF-A - most of the time, the design and parts count of a $50-70 Tamiya kit is directly comparable to that of a $25 Revell kit.

For 8 times the cost of a 1/12 GT500, using your numbers, Tamiya's Enzo gives you 300% more of the major parts (to say nothing of the roughly 100% on TOP of that with fasteners), a lot more detail, and many more operating features. So the value ratio with design factors mixed in is roughly the same - if not actually favorable to the 1/12 Enzo in the final analysis.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Chuck Kourouklis

[Chuck Most]

I think the price is pretty well in line with what you are getting. Think about it- parts count, level of detail, sheer size... and let's drag out that 'typically Tamiya' quaility cliche one more time. In my experience, I've never once had a Tamiya kit fight me during the process. If anything, Pocher kits should require a bit of a discount, being as how you'll need to to a considerable amount of fitting and re-engeering just to build one OOB. And no, I've never build a Pocher myself, but after seeing countless online build chronicles, and seeing a handful of in-progress Pochers and speaking with the builders... don't expect Tamiya parts fit quailty from one of those.

[Craig Irwin]

At that money I'm glad I don't like the subject car.

[Pete J.]

I always get at bit of a charge out of these discussions about price/value of a given kit. Having spent a lot of time sales I understand the argument, but see it from a differant persective. Cost is hard dollars. Value is "what is it worth to me?" There are some people that don't like the subject matter and wouldn't pay $5 for it. It has no value to them what so ever. Others love the car and have the budget to accomidate it at almost any price. All the rest of us fall in between. I think(and correct me if I'm wrong) as a magazine editor Harry has the responsablity to devine the relative worth of the kit compared to the quality of the parts and the potential that a buyer is getting a reasonable kit for the money. I believe that his estimation is that compared to other $600 kits, this one might be lacking a little, but compaired to $300 kits it is on the mark.

The rest of us are deciding if our desire to own this kit is met by the price. A lot of us have voted yes and a lot have voted no. Personal value is either there or it is not. For me, yes. I have been waiting for this kit for 10 years and am excited to have it on the work bench. Nobody can question the value to me because it is my opinion and my money. If you don't see the personal value/money in the kit, nobody can argue with that for the same reason.

Is it a good quality Tamiya kit? Yes, no argument. Will they sell out of them quickly? I hope so. The question then becomes are there enough of us who are willing to buy these to make them a good value for Tamiya. Tamiya knows it's costs and how many they have to sell world wide to make it profitable for them. If is is, we are likely to see more large scale kits. Only the market and time will answer that question. Personally, I want to see Tamiya back into making new large scale kits on a regular basis.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Pete J.

[martinfan5]

No way would I spend that much for this kit, but I really dont like the Enzo, even if I did, I wouldn't, I would rather take that money and go on a kit shopping spree. I built the Revell version, and was not all that impressed, I know this one even in 1/24th is better then the Revell version, but still. I will watch the WIP's on this one, just to see it. But I also dont build that big of scale

[Dave]

Geex, now I want one. I'd have some reservations about getting a top notch paint job on a large boddy like that, but to me to me it's looks worthy of the price.

[The Creative Explorer]

Sorry if I somehow came across that way, but I never meant to imply that the classics or even the Volvo truck were pre-painted diecast. "The Pocher kit" in that sentence above referred specifically to the example I brought up in the F40.

As for 1/12 F40s, check your resources again - Fujimi also did a 1/12 painted diecast kit F40 that was available just before the Pocher F40. Enter it in a google search and you'll find it existed, though info on it is scarce:

Were you aware of Protar's 1/12 F40? If not, you didn't miss much there; that thing was a wreck.

Yeah, I know a thing or two about Revell's GT500, and anyone who's reasonably deft can make that kit look much more complex than it actually is, with paint alone. I wouldn't even call it crude, just simplified, and it's one of my favorites in a long time.

As for your 1/25-24 examples, if we're going to reduce it to the kind of math you appear to suggest, let's fix the Enzo price at $50. You get about 70% more parts, opening doors, and a great deal of extra tooling precision for 2 - 2.5 times the cost of a 1/25 Revell Mustang, and that's just in the case of the Enzo and the LF-A - most of the time, the design and parts count of a $50-70 Tamiya kit is directly comparable to that of a $25 Revell kit.

For 8 times the cost of a 1/12 GT500, using your numbers, Tamiya's Enzo gives you 300% more of the major parts (to say nothing of the roughly 100% on TOP of that with fasteners), a lot more detail, and many more operating features. So the value ratio with design factors mixed in is roughly the same - if not actually favorable to the 1/12 Enzo in the final analysis.

I did not know about the Protar, but knowing RoG's and Italeri's history, I am not going to be suprised if the Italeri F40 is the old Protar F40. The Revell F40 is newer, better and less detailed.

I also didn't know about the Fujimi 1/12, but since it is diecast, I wouldn't have taken it into the equasion, since it is a diecast-kit. If it would've been, then the Semi-Diecast Tamiya Enzo needs to join to, which is/was 200$ cheaper MSRP and basically the same kit, with a few differences.

But I think we will never be able to settle this discussion haha. Like said before, it is a personal thing. For me, the Enzo doesn't have the value it should. I believe it should be 100$ less. Therefore, I will not buy it. No biggie, I have more than enough big scale kits to survive me, till I am dead, if I build 1 per year.

Good thing we're all diverse, makes modelling a whole lot more interesting haha.

[Bennyg]

I'm currently downsizing my kit collection as I'm about to commit to more studies, but this kit looks awesome. I was going to get rid of all of my unbuilt stuff except the Mack trucks. I really am considering this kit as my holiday project.

Ben

[Dr. Cranky]

Looks like a great kit and all, but I've tried to build a couple of Enzo's and have ended up pulling out my hair each time, so I would be completely bald and out of 300 bucks on this one.

[Harry P.]

The question then becomes are there enough of us who are willing to buy these to make them a good value for Tamiya. Tamiya knows it's costs and how many they have to sell world wide to make it profitable for them. If is is, we are likely to see more large scale kits. Only the market and time will answer that question.

Yep, that sums it up exactly.

The kit has no inherent value... at least not yet (maybe in the future when it's out of production and hard to find, it'll have a certain "collector value")... it's not made of gold or silver or some material that has a value in and of itself. It's just (mostly) plastic, so any "value" the kit has is a function of how bad the buyer wants it.

In my opinion, $600 is too high an asking price. But that's just me. There are probably people out there who think that the kit is a bargain at $600.

Everyone has to make their own "value judgement."

And one final comment on Pochers and their "value:" At the time they were being produced, Pocher kits were unique. There was no other kit on the market that could compare with the sheer size, complexity and detail of a Pocher (especially the "classic" kits, less so for the "modern" kit-Porsches and Ferraris). Yes, they were hard to build, some of the parts fit was less than spectacular... but the challenge of building a Pocher was pretty much a unique experience in the model car world. There just wasn't anything out there quite like it. And the prices they retailed for gave a pretty good bang for the buck, IMO.

Of course, Pocher prices these days are inflated due to the fact that they aren't produced anymore, there are only a fixed number of them still out there, and unbuilt, complete kits are getting harder and harder to find. So comparing current Pocher prices (which are fluid and not set by the manufacturer) with this Enzo kit's price doesn't work. Only when the Enzo is long out of production and available only from resellers, like Pochers currently are, will we ultimately see how the Enzo stacks up as far as "value" goes.

[Chuck Kourouklis]

I understand the attraction of a Pocher classic, Harry, to such a degree that I anticipated that factor when I mentioned the typical Pocher Classic's "rewards" earlier. But I have shown you a perspective from which cost comparisons absolutely like-it-or-not DO work, and you haven't exactly refuted that. I made no bones about it being MY perspective, and as you and others have suggested, maybe it's not a perspective shared by many others, but history is irrelevant to an appraisal in absolute terms:

by the same mechanism I could justify spending $280 on the Mercedes 500K/AK in 1986 ($581 in 2012 terms), $300 1989 on the Testors/Pocher Ferrari (550 2012 dollars), and most especially the collector prices o o p kits now command, $600 for a kit that's not quite as imposing but obviously far advanced in its engineering is NOT such a big step. Drop that price to 300, and it's not ANY kind of step.

Explorer, I think I've seen some of those semi-assembled die cast Enzos tickle the $400 range, but only in the same context as the assembly kit is $300 - full MSRP for those was as much as $700. And that Fujimi die cast is an ASSEMBLY KIT - so it doesn't matter if the body medium is die cast or plastic, it's not so easily dismissed from the discussion.

Now as for Italeri releases, I've got their 1/16 F40 which I actually rather like. But I'm having a hard time digging up anything on a 1/12 F40 from them - you got any documentation on that? If they've done one, I'd guess the odds are pretty fair it's the Protar kit - if so, Italeri's own 1/16 kit is far superior overall. Revell AG's release is likely a re-box of the Monogram 1/12 F40 - not terrible, but it recycles the Testarossa's tires to sad, comical effect. If the Protar kit has any use, maybe it's as a wheel and tire donor to the Revell/Monogram kit.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Chuck Kourouklis

[Harry P.]

by the same mechanism I could justify spending $280 on the Mercedes 500K/AK in 1986 ($581 in 2012 terms)...

Where are getting that "adjusted for inflation" number? Seems a little exaggerated to me. Is it accurate?

[Chuck Kourouklis]

Hereya go:

http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

Just for grins, tried this one too:

http://146.142.4.24/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=280&year1=1986&year2=2012

This one says $578:

http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm

Edited April 6, 2012 by Chuck Kourouklis

[Harry P.]

Man, that's scary.

[Chuck Kourouklis]

HEH. No argument there...

[Ghostmech]

I always get at bit of a charge out of these discussions about price/value of a given kit. Having spent a lot of time sales I understand the argument, but see it from a differant persective. Cost is hard dollars. Value is "what is it worth to me?" There are some people that don't like the subject matter and wouldn't pay $5 for it. It has no value to them what so ever. Others love the car and have the budget to accomidate it at almost any price. All the rest of us fall in between. I think(and correct me if I'm wrong) as a magazine editor Harry has the responsablity to devine the relative worth of the kit compared to the quality of the parts and the potential that a buyer is getting a reasonable kit for the money. I believe that his estimation is that compared to other $600 kits, this one might be lacking a little, but compaired to $300 kits it is on the mark.

The rest of us are deciding if our desire to own this kit is met by the price. A lot of us have voted yes and a lot have voted no. Personal value is either there or it is not. For me, yes. I have been waiting for this kit for 10 years and am excited to have it on the work bench. Nobody can question the value to me because it is my opinion and my money. If you don't see the personal value/money in the kit, nobody can argue with that for the same reason.

Is it a good quality Tamiya kit? Yes, no argument. Will they sell out of them quickly? I hope so. The question then becomes are there enough of us who are willing to buy these to make them a good value for Tamiya. Tamiya knows it's costs and how many they have to sell world wide to make it profitable for them. If is is, we are likely to see more large scale kits. Only the market and time will answer that question. Personally, I want to see Tamiya back into making new large scale kits on a regular basis.

I'm right there with you.....I have one already and may buy another for a stash queen. It's all a matter of taste and desire. I have also thought (hoped) that Tamiya would eventually do this as a 1:12 kit since they had so much research available in their archives and having done the beautiful 1:24 kits, as well as the 1:12 semi-finished versions.

Being an owner of a Pocher Bugatti 50T (and previous owner of Rolls, Tessi and F-40) along with many Tamiya 1:12 kits, I don't believe there are any other kits is as well detailed or engineered to the standard this one is (except maybe the Caterham or those Hiro kits.....and how much are those puppies going for nowadays, if you can find them).

Too many who are against this kit are saying it costs $600 and they would never pay that kind of money are not really being honest. I bought this kit at an exchange rate of $288.00US and I suspect when the dust settles, you will find it in the low 300 dollar range at the bigger online hobby outlets in the US. Anyone paying $600.00 for this kit are a bit foolish.... though it may be worth it as a personal assessment to some, there is no need to pay that unless money is no object.

Like I said, I was hoping Tamiya would do this in kit form, and now they have....I got what I had hoped for and the money is well spent in my opinion. If this kit is done right, will be the star of any model contest to be sure.

BTW, still waiting for SMS or others to announce a detail set or FXX conversion....which will make it all the more sweeter!

Edited April 6, 2012 by Ghostmech

[Chuck Kourouklis]

I have it on fair authority that SMS is at least working up a CF template set for this kit.

It really is a bit overwhelming in your hands. I got mine 'round $360 with shipping, and looking it over, I couldn't help imagining I would not have been upset to drop full retail on it.

There are certain distinctions - for six bills, I would have hoped for something akin to the CF decals Tamiya eventually put in their 1/24 Enzos, pre-tinted taillights and signal lamps, and some gearing reduction on the steering rather than the straight dogleg shaft-to-tierod arrangement that they have; but again, I wouldn't have felt cheated.

At $360, though, I find it worth every penny and beyond.

[Harry P.]

Is this the same thing as the model we're talking about here?

http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/23205enzo/index.htm