hedotwo Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I've attached a pic of a Revell twin fuel pump manifold for a top fuel dragster circa 2000. I've already drilled out all 5 fittings and am ready to run fuel lines but have a question as to which go where. I'm assuming A and B go to the barrel valve. Is this right? How about C, D, and E? Thanks, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace-Garageguy Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Hmmm...these don't look at all like the old-school Hilborn, Enderle or Crower engine-driven fuel pumps I'm familiar with, and they don't look to me much like the pumps on contemporary fuel dragsters either (but in this case that means little, because I've been away from drag racing for many many years). if I'm identifying the model parts you posted correctly, it looks to me like the two pump housings are side-by-side, rather than end to end as seems to be common recently. Do you have a shot of how these mount on the engine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace-Garageguy Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 This doesn't really look like what you've got, but it's about the closest I could find... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hedotwo Posted June 13, 2015 Author Share Posted June 13, 2015 It's from the Revell Bud dragster kit. My RM Pennzoil dragster kit has the same pump setup so I'm guessing they were on most of the kits of then current kits from the late 90's and early 2000's. I won't be at home for a few days to be able to show you another view unfortunately. What you're looking at is the dead on front view and this is the two pump covers and associated fittings. The two pump bodies run off a common drive shaft that mounts to the block between the blower belts. I've spent a fair amount of time searching Google images (it's an art to come up with good search terms) and will continue, but I thought I'd give some of the forum experts a shot at identifying for me. I have the schematic you posted and will use that if I don't find better. It obviously shows the two main fuel lines going to the barrel valve, but the others somewhat confused me. I'm guessing they'll end up at a fuel distribution block of sorts. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10thumbs Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 I don't have a clue about plumbing up a blown fuel motor, that's saved for the next altered model I'll make. Bill's diagram though looks good to me and that's what I'm using. Bill, just a question please: on the right of the diagram, where would the fuel valves be located? On the motor block up front, or the frame? I have no idea. Thanks Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace-Garageguy Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) Bill, just a question please: on the right of the diagram, where would the fuel valves be located? On the motor block up front, or the frame? I have no idea. Thanks Michael In all honesty, I'm just not familiar with plumbing on fairly recent top-fuel cars. Here is what seems to me to be a good intro into the function of fuel systems as they now are, or were fairly recently. http://www.competitionplus.com/featured-stories/10631-mike-kloebers-nitro-university-course-4-fuel-management-systems Edited June 13, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace-Garageguy Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) The link I posted is essentialy what you need. Can't seem to come up with a Enderle double metering valve though. That diagram is pretty old-school, though. Still running pills for mixture adjustment, and basically the same setup as cars of the '60s (with the addition of the port distribution block). Edited June 13, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10thumbs Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Bill, thanks for the link, that's info that will have to be really studied. Paul, I can't see adapting all of that to a 1:25 motor, wow! I think I'll fake it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hedotwo Posted June 13, 2015 Author Share Posted June 13, 2015 you wanted the information.... what you do with it is up to you. Paul I was basically looking for just the main fuel pump lines on the Revell part. I've already made my barrel valve very similar to the dual inlet one you posted a pic of. It may or may not be period correct for the Bud car, but it's what it's going to be in this case. I'm not going to stress over the exact routing of the fuel pump lines but was hoping to make an effort at doing it somewhat correctly. The beauty of detailing dragster stuff is that it's always visible. No having to put a hood on only to end up covering up your hard work. Thanks for the replies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hedotwo Posted June 13, 2015 Author Share Posted June 13, 2015 Ok, one last one. This roughly shows the fuel pump setup a bit on the Bud car that Revell may have used in making the part. Not sure which of the Bud cars it is though. The hat is different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W-31 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Look like Watermann pumps. Think thats what they use now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneyzs Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Well I know the pics I am about to show are a little different than what you are showing but I took these shots of this Dragster that was at a Big Boys and There Toys event in Scottsdale Arizona back in 2007. Not sure if they are a help but I will also post the link of all 29 pics of this dragster LINK: http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Mooneyzs/library/Plastic%20Models/Drag%20Racing%20Reference/Top%20Fuel%20Dragster?sort=3&page=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Force Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) Back in the day when the new style TF kits were originally made most nitro racers used dual Enderle gerotor fuel pumps and that's what Revell duplicated on their TF kits back in 1989-90 so back then they were correct. Back then most teams used 2 barrel valves to get enough fuel into the engines, one on each side of the injector hat as the fuel flow wasn't enough in the old Enderle barrel valves to just use 1, one barrel valve was for feeding fuel to the lines under the injector hat and under the blower, and the other for the lines feeding fuel to the nozzles located in the intake port just behind the intake valves in the heads where most of the fuel are injected in a nitro engine so there were more lines distributing fuel back then than it is now. Today they use only one larger metering valve (Pete Jackson) and the fuel systems has changed some since then and looks a bit different, still the same number of nozzles but less valves and fuel lines, and the newer fuel management setup can't easily be adapted to these older pump setups. These Enderle fuel pumps was still there when Revell did the last updated TF dragster kits from 2002 with the Army and Bud King kits but all racers had changed to Sid Waterman "Bertha" series style dual spur gear pumps in the mid 90's as they gave more fuel flow per minute and higher fuel pressure than the Enderle pumps did, and that style pumps are still in use today on nitro engines. If you look at the schematic picture above there are fuel valves on the return lines, that's correct and it's not a fuel log as they used several valves to regulate how much fuel is returned to the tank as they enrich the engine as the clutch engages and the engine RPM goes down, all this is actuated by timers and pneumatics. Today most have replaced the multiple jet/timer system with a slide valve regulating the fuel curve. Here is some good information explaining the fuel system on a Nitro engine. http://www.darkside.ca/node/95 Revell never did enough updates to keep their Top Fuel Dragster kits up to current state over the years they were made. It's not only the fuel pumps that has changed since these TF kits were developed, back in 1990 mostly all who raced Nitro engines used dual Mallory Super Mags and that's what's in the Revell TF kits, but in the mid to late 90's when most of the development of the Nitro cars took place all nitro teams changed to the larger better MSD Pro Mag 44's as they came available but they did never appear on the kits. The blowers are larger 14-71's and set back, larger carbon fibre injector hats (often called big and ugly), 3 element rear wings, full width front wing and a some other things that Revell never did to their kits when they updated them (last was in 2002)....if they had they would still be pretty much up to date 13 years later as the cars looks nearly the same today as they did then. Edited June 14, 2015 by Force Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hedotwo Posted June 14, 2015 Author Share Posted June 14, 2015 Thanks to all for this discussion and the link to the great closeup pics. I'd often wondered what really had changed since Revell made their last TF kits and what it might take to get them more up to date, if not somewhat current for today's cars. I'd been toying with the idea of starting my next TF Revell kit (Eddie Hill's) and scratching a canopy which is very common today, but after reading Force's comment I now have more knowledge of other things that would need to be changed. I record all the NHRA races each week on my dvr and love pausing the playback when there are closeups of the engines and related. I wish I could do screen captures of some of those views! Great job guys Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Force Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 (edited) The Canopy developed by DSR a couple of years ago are used by the 3 DSR TF teams Tony Schumacher, Antron Brown and Spencer Massey, and the JFR team for Brittany Force...I don't think anyone else uses them right now...at least not in NHRA competition. To make a current TF dragster from the latest developments of the Revell kits you need to change to a larger set back 14-71 blower, if your kit doesn't have the "big and ugly" carbon fibre injector hat (the Army and Bud King kits do) you'll have to change to one, then change or modify the valve covers to resemble the Titanium pieces with spark plug covers they use now, add a blower bag and hold down straps, change the fuel pumps to dual spur gear pumps, change the magnetos to MSD Pro Mag 44's, add a titanium shield to the roll cage behind the drivers head, update the oil catch can system, add a belly pan, change the rear wing to a 3 element, change the front wings to a full width in front of the nose cone, change the windshield to a larger one (or canopy), and change the wheels to a more current style. Edited June 14, 2015 by Force Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneyzs Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Hakan... Jenna Haddock is driving a former Antron Brown Dragster that has the Canopy as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Force Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 (edited) Oh forgot about her...well she isn't really a regular so that's maybe why I didn't think of her. I'm looking at live streaming of the Epping race right now as it's my only chance to follow NHRA drag racing nowadays. To go back to the old Enderle dual fuel pump plumbing here is a link to a build of Gary Ormsby's Dragster I did back in 1994. http://www.modelcarsmag.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=91764&hl= Edited June 14, 2015 by Force Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hedotwo Posted June 15, 2015 Author Share Posted June 15, 2015 Great build! Thanks for sharing and thanks for more added info on mods needed for a current build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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