The Moebius Lonestar

[chuckyr]

I believe that the shell of the cab and sleeper will be one-piece units, as that is pretty much the expected standard in the US market and it's far easier when one does not have to align cab sides, ends, cowling and roof all the while being careful to get those parts together cleanly; but the pics of the mockup do show a "platform" interior, that is separate floors and side panels, which of course are much easier to detail, in addition to making it possible to have scale-appearing high-relief surface details molded in. This has become the expected standard for model car kits, no reason it shouldn't be done in a truck kit as well.

As for 1/24 vs 1/25 scale: This kit is being done primarily for consumption in the US, and 1/25 scale is by far and away the most popular scale of the two, for street vehicles of all types. 1/24 scale, oddly enough, seems to be the standard in Europe and the Far East, for reasons which escape me, given that 1/25 is much easier with which to work in both English (feet & inches) and in metrics, as a scale inch equals both .040" AND 1mm, great interchangeability. But more than 50 years ago, Monogram Models sort of popularized 1/24 scale, and given their penetration into the markets in Europe and Japan, that scale was adopted wholesale in both regions of the World. However, IF one has a 1/24 scale model, done to exact 1/24 scale, and a 1/25 scale model done exactly in that scale, the dimensional difference is less than 4%, hardly noticeable unless you compare the same part from each kit, side-by-side.

I don’t agree with many of your assessments. There are many modelers who have as many years as you do on this board building and scratch building big rig kits. Notice I said big rigs and not trucks. There is a difference between building big rigs and pick ups, SUV models. Conduct a side by side comparison of a Revel or an AMT Peterbilt of any era and the Italeri 378 or 377. The Italeri looks more in scale by far than the Revell. Cutting out the door panels is much easier with a separate panel then a tub. 1/24th scale, being slightly larger allows for that much more detail and since Italeri has been the only manufacture over the last 10 to 15 years or so to offer any new North American big rig subjects as Tim pointed out, the old 1/25th scale is no longer considered the standard for big rig subjects. It may be for cars, but not for big rigs. The scale difference is discernible particularly with tires and wheels and with van trailers.

However, I am thrilled and appreciative of a new big rig subject coming to market and hope there will be many more as well as accurate modern semi trailer subjects to mate to the tractor to come.

[Danno]

Hey, Art. I can't wait for this kit; it sounds great!

Here's a suggestion/idea/thought, if it is not already planned or already discarded as an option. Since Moebius already (no doubt) has tons of references (photos and plans) of the 1:1 on hand, perhaps they could include in the instructions some detailed information about the wiring and the air and hydraulic plumbing so that modelers who want to build a fair to great representation of the Lonestar would have some good, accurate reference material in the box ... kind of like detailed paint color call-outs included in some kits.

I know the guys who specialize in big rigs know all about the wiring & plumbing and can detail a model without this info, but I think this feature would add a great deal of value for those of us who would consider buying/building it but who don't have access to or the means of determining the proper vehicle-specific appearances and routing, etc., of the components and lines and hoses, etc., etc., of the systems involved.

And, again, as I mentioned ... Moebius already has the research material on hand no doubt so there really wouldn't be much added expense other than the layout and printing.

Just a thought for consideration ~~ a simple little enhancement of the modelling experience that shouldn't cost them much ... and, as always, the consumer can build to his/her own preferred level, but the value of the kit would be universally increased by the inclusion of the detailing information.

(They don't even have to mold all the fittings and valves and brackets and such, as long as they could show us what they're supposed to look like and where they're supposed to go.)

IMHO ~ for whatever it's worth. Anybody else agree?

[MICHAEL COLE]

yes, that imfo will be good to have. and a paint guide to show how the real truck looks like.

[highway]

As for 1/24 vs 1/25 scale: This kit is being done primarily for consumption in the US, and 1/25 scale is by far and away the most popular scale of the two, for street vehicles of all types. 1/24 scale, oddly enough, seems to be the standard in Europe and the Far East, for reasons which escape me, given that 1/25 is much easier with which to work in both English (feet & inches) and in metrics, as a scale inch equals both .040" AND 1mm, great interchangeability. But more than 50 years ago, Monogram Models sort of popularized 1/24 scale, and given their penetration into the markets in Europe and Japan, that scale was adopted wholesale in both regions of the World. However, IF one has a 1/24 scale model, done to exact 1/24 scale, and a 1/25 scale model done exactly in that scale, the dimensional difference is less than 4%, hardly noticeable unless you compare the same part from each kit, side-by-side.

I don’t agree with many of your assessments. There are many modelers who have as many years as you do on this board building and scratch building big rig kits. Notice I said big rigs and not trucks. There is a difference between building big rigs and pick ups, SUV models. Conduct a side by side comparison of a Revel or an AMT Peterbilt of any era and the Italeri 378 or 377. The Italeri looks more in scale by far than the Revell. Cutting out the door panels is much easier with a separate panel then a tub. 1/24th scale, being slightly larger allows for that much more detail and since Italeri has been the only manufacture over the last 10 to 15 years or so to offer any new North American big rig subjects as Tim pointed out, the old 1/25th scale is no longer considered the standard for big rig subjects. It may be for cars, but not for big rigs. The scale difference is discernible particularly with tires and wheels and with van trailers.

However, I am thrilled and appreciative of a new big rig subject coming to market and hope there will be many more as well as accurate modern semi trailer subjects to mate to the tractor to come.

Chucky, I do have to agree I'm thrilled and appreciative to have a new big rig subject coming to the shevles, but the scale MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO ME!! It is hardly noticeable, as Art said, and here are some pictures to prove it. They are of my latest project, an Italeri 1:24 scale Ford LTL 9000 with AMT's 1:25 scale Wilson Livestock Trailer.

The view from above with the livestock trailer:

The right side drive tires with livestock trailer:

The left side drive tires with livestock trailer:

The next set of pictures are of the same Italeri 1:24 scale Ford LTL 9000 with Italeri's 1:24 scale Container trailer.

The truck and container trailer from above:

The right side drive tires with container trailer:

The left side drive tires with container trailer:

As you can see, the photos of the 1:25 AMT Livestock trailer and the 1:24 Italeri Container trailer are VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL!!! I have know idea how familiar you are with trucks, as I do not know you personally, but I am a Class A CDL licenced driver with over 12 years experience. I have driven most everything with 18 wheels, and know most of the older trailers AMT offers are 60's and 70's technology, in which industry standards the largest trailers were 40 feet long and 96 inches wide, container trailers also fit this standard. Todays standards are 53 feet long and 102 inches wide, and one modern 1:1 scale trucks, the edge of the drive tires line up with the edge of the trailer. I have hauled older 96 inch wide trailers with modern tractors, and the tractor tires hang out from the edge of the trailer just like the scale pictures here. I also, by the way, used my scale rulers on the trailers, my 1:24 scale ruler scales the Italeri 1:24 scale container at exactly 8 feet, or 96 inches wide. I also measured the 1:25 scale AMT Livestock trailer with my 1:25 scale ruler, it also scales in at exactly 96 inches wide. I hope this proves Art's statement, in my opinion, THERE IS VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCEBETWEEN THE TWO SCALES!!!!!

[MICHAEL COLE]

thats true, i mix my trucks to, 1/24 tractors and 1/25 trailers and u cant tell it.

[crispy]

Keep bantering guys. I'm learning a lot. I don't build much for trucks although I have a few in the collection.

I do prefer 1/24 scale as my builds favor that anyway. It's a very limited base of models that you can see the difference in scale.

Basically, I don't care, just let me have the Lonestar!

Chris

[Wagoneer81]

First, let me repeat that I am tickled pink and jumping up and down with glee about the prospect of a truly modern tractor in 1 24/25 scale. It's been a long time coming. The only thing that I want to add to this conversation is to expand on Highway's excellent dissertation on Prototype trailer dimensions by saying that a great follow-on model for the Lonestar would be a 53' x 102" wide van trailer, Great Dane, Freuhauf, Wabash National, any manufacturer. When I drove freight in '06 and'07, our company didn't have anything smaller than 53'-102", most companies wouldn't even talk to us about moving their stuff with a smaller trailer. 90-95% of what's on the road today is 53-102. When I was an Show Driver for the Gaither Vocal Band, I hauled concert lighting equipment in a 53'-102" dropdeck van. So a modern 53' footer would be an excellent addition to this excellent modern truck. Moebius, just a suggestion... You'd sell a boatload of them! I know I'd buy an entire case, myself.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Wagoneer81

[Art Anderson]

Hey, Art. I can't wait for this kit; it sounds great!

Here's a suggestion/idea/thought, if it is not already planned or already discarded as an option. Since Moebius already (no doubt) has tons of references (photos and plans) of the 1:1 on hand, perhaps they could include in the instructions some detailed information about the wiring and the air and hydraulic plumbing so that modelers who want to build a fair to great representation of the Lonestar would have some good, accurate reference material in the box ... kind of like detailed paint color call-outs included in some kits.

I know the guys who specialize in big rigs know all about the wiring & plumbing and can detail a model without this info, but I think this feature would add a great deal of value for those of us who would consider buying/building it but who don't have access to or the means of determining the proper vehicle-specific appearances and routing, etc., of the components and lines and hoses, etc., etc., of the systems involved.

And, again, as I mentioned ... Moebius already has the research material on hand no doubt so there really wouldn't be much added expense other than the layout and printing.

Just a thought for consideration ~~ a simple little enhancement of the modelling experience that shouldn't cost them much ... and, as always, the consumer can build to his/her own preferred level, but the value of the kit would be universally increased by the inclusion of the detailing information.

(They don't even have to mold all the fittings and valves and brackets and such, as long as they could show us what they're supposed to look like and where they're supposed to go.)

IMHO ~ for whatever it's worth. Anybody else agree?

All well and good, of course, but I do see some difficulties. With a project of not only this magnitude, but also a most modern subject, I imagine that it's doubtful that the CAD files provided by a manufacturer will show much of the layout of the various systems--not exactly the purpose of such drawings and photographs unfortunately. Additionally, while it might seem strange, or "penny-pinching" almost always, bringing a new kit to market is very much a game of counting pennies, and that gets done wherever surplus pennies can be found in the equation (I know, a very simplified example). This sort of careful accounting is simply necessary, due to the very narrow margins that model companies often operate with. It can truly be a matter of "A cent or two here, a cent or two there (multiplied by a production run figure) and pretty soon you are talking about some real money".

With this in mind, sometimes it's perhaps better in the long run to leave advanced detailing info acquisition to the builder him(her)self at times. Service manual references may be a bit tough to find, but the trucks themselves won't be, and with a digital camera you can often gather much more information than can be had from a booklet full of drawings, and I suspect that with any modern vehicle, car, pickup, SUV or big truck, there is literally a plethora of details that could be added. Don't get me wrong, I've been researching detailing information for more than 4 decades now, even referred to factory assembly manuals when available, and my findings are that generally, the best information I have found has often come from my own observation, my own photographs, and that includes the half-dozen or so big rigs I built and superdetailed back in the mid-1970's.

I doubt this is what you want to hear, but I'm likely fairly close to the mark.

Art

[Art Anderson]

First, let me repeat that I am tickled pink and jumping up and down with glee about the prospect of a truly modern tractor in 1 24/25 scale. It's been a long time coming. The only thing that I want to add to this conversation is to expand on Highway's excellent dissertation on Prototype trailer dimensions by saying that a great follow-on model for the Lonestar would be a 53' x 102" wide van trailer, Great Dane, Freuhauf, Wabash National, any manufacturer. When I drove freight in '06 and'07, our company didn't have anything smaller than 53'-102", most companies wouldn't even talk to us about moving their stuff with a smaller trailer. 90-95% of what's on the road today is 53-102. When I was an Show Driver for the Gaither Vocal Band, I hauled concert lighting equipment in a 53'-102" dropdeck van. So a modern 53' footer would be an excellent addition to this excellent modern truck. Moebius, just a suggestion... You'd sell a boatload of them! I know I'd buy an entire case, myself.

I understand, but while I am definitely not the one calling the shots here, my 30 years or so in the retail hobby business taught me that even in the heyday of big rig model kit popularity, trailers in general sold in very low numbers compared to tractors. I suspect that it is more a matter of size, where would most modelers (and we on boards such as this are but a small but dedicated minority in the overall marketplace for model vehicle kits) put them on display? From personal experience, I can only say, that "where would I display a trailer, itself perhaps 26.5" long, on my shelf"? has been pretty much the reason why more modelers don't build trailers to go along with the tractors. Now, perhaps if you brought along say, 9,999 of your closest friends??? (assuming each would buy a caselot, of course).

Art

[highway]

The only thing that I want to add to this conversation is to expand on Highway's excellent dissertation on Prototype trailer dimensions by saying that a great follow-on model for the Lonestar would be a 53' x 102" wide van trailer, Great Dane, Freuhauf, Wabash National, any manufacturer.

Thanks, Wagoneer, and I also think a modern 53 footer would be a get follow up as well, but give us guys who hauled reefer (the trailers, not the herb!! ) some love, too. They could even offer it as a 2 in 1 kit with the option of dry or reefer. I'd buy two or three cases of those!

[Wagoneer81]

I understand, but while I am definitely not the one calling the shots here, my 30 years or so in the retail hobby business taught me that even in the heyday of big rig model kit popularity, trailers in general sold in very low numbers compared to tractors. I suspect that it is more a matter of size, where would most modelers (and we on boards such as this are but a small but dedicated minority in the overall marketplace for model vehicle kits) put them on display? From personal experience, I can only say, that "where would I display a trailer, itself perhaps 26.5" long, on my shelf"? has been pretty much the reason why more modelers don't build trailers to go along with the tractors. Now, perhaps if you brought along say, 9,999 of your closest friends??? (assuming each would buy a caselot, of course).

Art

Yeah, I've thought about the display issues... I can still dream, can't I??? I see your point, but I also see the other side of the coin with Lindberg releasing a 1/72 scale WWII Japanese sub that scales out to roughly 56". Also, Revell has released a Type VIIc U-boat that is 36" long and a Gato Class sub that is 52" long, both in 1/72 scale. I built the VIIc for a friend (Who displays it on his fireplace mantle) and have the Gato on display in my living room with several 1/72 scale torpedo boats. How large of a "small but dedicated minority" do those kits attract? By no means am I disagreeing with you, I'm just pointing out that I see a little hope here because a 26" trailer and an overall 34-38" tractor-trailer combo would be smaller than some of the kits currently on the market. If size is the primary deciding factor... of course, I'll concede the point that a submarine can make a more exciting display subject than a semi trailer, to some people ... My only criticism of this hobby, and it is a very minor one, is that nobody has tooled up a MODERN dry-goods trailer. We have a plethora of older 40' offerings, flatbeds, vans, tankers, livestock trailers, etc... but if someone wants a 53'-102", they have to kitbash or scratchbuild, which right now is what I'm doing. I may be in the minority here, but having room to display, for me is not an issue. True, I'm not going to hold my breath or get my knickers in a knot if one is not forthcoming, but I can dream...

Edited April 30, 2010 by Wagoneer81

[mackinac359]

Thus why I have a bunch of trailer kits unbuilt and only a handful built. Where would I display them?

Tim

I understand, but while I am definitely not the one calling the shots here, my 30 years or so in the retail hobby business taught me that even in the heyday of big rig model kit popularity, trailers in general sold in very low numbers compared to tractors. I suspect that it is more a matter of size, where would most modelers (and we on boards such as this are but a small but dedicated minority in the overall marketplace for model vehicle kits) put them on display? From personal experience, I can only say, that "where would I display a trailer, itself perhaps 26.5" long, on my shelf"? has been pretty much the reason why more modelers don't build trailers to go along with the tractors. Now, perhaps if you brought along say, 9,999 of your closest friends??? (assuming each would buy a caselot, of course).

Art

[highway]

Thus why I have a bunch of trailer kits unbuilt and only a handful built. Where would I display them?

Tim

What do you have? You could send them my way, I'll build them and figure out where to put them later!

[chuckyr]

First, let me repeat that I am tickled pink and jumping up and down with glee about the prospect of a truly modern tractor in 1 24/25 scale. It's been a long time coming. The only thing that I want to add to this conversation is to expand on Highway's excellent dissertation on Prototype trailer dimensions by saying that a great follow-on model for the Lonestar would be a 53' x 102" wide van trailer, Great Dane, Freuhauf, Wabash National, any manufacturer. When I drove freight in '06 and'07, our company didn't have anything smaller than 53'-102", most companies wouldn't even talk to us about moving their stuff with a smaller trailer. 90-95% of what's on the road today is 53-102. When I was an Show Driver for the Gaither Vocal Band, I hauled concert lighting equipment in a 53'-102" dropdeck van. So a modern 53' footer would be an excellent addition to this excellent modern truck. Moebius, just a suggestion... You'd sell a boatload of them! I know I'd buy an entire case, myself.

Well if you want to be totally honest. Big rig models have always been just a portion of the over all model universe, even in their heyday. However try finding an Ertl Great Dane reefer van trailer model on ebay for anything but a hefty sum and you will understand that an accurate modern trailer subject is way over due!

There are an enumerable amount of 1/144th scale aircraft Carrier models, Airfix has recently offer a 1/24th scale Mosquito WWII air craft model and not too mention all of those huge 1/16th scale. 1/8th scale... models. Where would you display them? The same place you display all of your other tractors, just take a few of them of the shelf and make room for a trailer or two.

[Ben]

Well if you want to be totally honest. Big rig models have always been just a portion of the over all model universe, even in their heyday. However try finding an Ertl Great Dane reefer van trailer model on ebay for anything but a hefty sum and you will understand that an accurate modern trailer subject is way over due!

There are an enumerable amount of 1/144th scale aircraft Carrier models, Airfix has recently offer a 1/24th scale Mosquito WWII air craft model and not too mention all of those huge 1/16th scale. 1/8th scale... models. Where would you display them? The same place you display all of your other tractors, just take a few of them of the shelf and make room for a trailer or two.

Trailers don't sell well? Funny, I had no problem dropping 200.00 for two of the Transcraft 53' flatbed kits, 100.00 for a partially built bottom dump, 200.00 for a modern tri axle lowboy and 180.00 for a Klaus Clever Scona oilfield float! I could go on and on. If a modern 53' foot ACCURATE reefer trailer with the simple option to make a van rather than a reefer, kit were produced, it would sell, period! I would be willing to pay for two cases even before they are produced! Why, because I know they will sell! How do I know this? As mentioned, go over to Ebay and take a look at what the old, outdated 40' Great Dane reefer kit sells for. Why does it go for so much? Because it is the ONLY american style reefer trailer ever produced that accuratly represents the 1:1 trailer it was modeled after. The Italeri 45' reefer was a waste of good plastic! Too short in height, a huge seam right down the center of a detailed side wall, horrible European style wheels with drive axle hubs and a cheap spring ride suspension that is very rarely used on reefer trailers. A modern trailer would have air ride. I assure you, if there's one thing I know, it's model trucks and real trucks in general! I spend thousands every year on anything offered as long as it is accurate. If Mobius were to produce an ACCURATE up to date reefer trailer kit they would not be sorry!

www.public.fotki.com/lotso

[highway]

The Italeri 45' reefer was a waste of good plastic! Too short in height, a huge seam right down the center of a detailed side wall, horrible European style wheels with drive axle hubs and a cheap spring ride suspension that is very rarely used on reefer trailers. A modern trailer would have air ride. I assure you, if there's one thing I know, it's model trucks and real trucks in general!

Ben, I have a question on the height of the Italeri reefer trailer, how is it short? A friend of mine is building one of them as his current project, and I had seen before the height was wrong, so we mocked it up on both our Italeri tractors and I checked the height with my 1:24 scale ruler. It measured out at 13'6", or really close to it. I agree the seam is a HUGE downer, it is not as easily dealt with as the seam in the container sides are, at least it is hidden by the ribbing posts. The wheels should have been done like Italeri's Volvo VN with a chrome cap instead of the usual axle hubs, also. One thing I must disagree with, though, is your view on the suspension. I drove for a company when I first started driving truck in 1998 where the entire fleet of trailers were newer model Utility 2000R 48' reefers with spring ride suspension. I hauled reefer (again, the trailers, not the herb ) for most of my over the road career until I came off the road in 2003 and started driving locally, and pulled mostly 53' and 48' reefers, and about 90-95% of them were spring ride trailers. There were very few with air ride, and many of the dry vans I pulled were spring ride as well.

[Ben]

I'd have to "hunt" for a spring ride reefer around here in Texas where i'm at. From what i've seen, more and more trailers are going to air ride. I've even seen dump trailers around here with it. On the Italeri reefer, the box height itself is too short. There's even a several page article on how one modeler (I think it was Guenter Boenisch) took two of them and spliced them together, one part on top of the other to get the correct side wall height. I think the article is on my Fotki site but i'd have to go look to be sure.

[highway]

On the Italeri reefer, the box height itself is too short. There's even a several page article on how one modeler (I think it was Guenter Boenisch) took two of them and spliced them together, one part on top of the other to get the correct side wall height. I think the article is on my Fotki site but i'd have to go look to be sure.

Now that you mention it, my friends reefer trailer does look a little on the thin on the sidewalls compared to my container trailer.

[chuckyr]

I'd have to "hunt" for a spring ride reefer around here in Texas where i'm at. From what i've seen, more and more trailers are going to air ride. I've even seen dump trailers around here with it. On the Italeri reefer, the box height itself is too short. There's even a several page article on how one modeler (I think it was Guenter Boenisch) took two of them and spliced them together, one part on top of the other to get the correct side wall height. I think the article is on my Fotki site but i'd have to go look to be sure.

[Ben]

Now THAT'S how Italeri should have made it look!!!!!!!

[mackinac359]

Measuring the Italeri USA Reefer trailer, it comes in just about 12'6". It's a foot short from standard.

I looks like a US Mail trailer in the height.

Another trailer that sells well is the Revell AG Beall tanker..

Tim

[chuckyr]

Measuring the Italeri USA Reefer trailer, it comes in just about 12'6". It's a foot short from standard.

I looks like a US Mail trailer in the height.

Another trailer that sells well is the Revell AG Beall tanker..

Tim

I suspect either they used Euro trailer height dimensions or used metric measurements instead of inch/foot measurements.

[chuckyr]

Another trailer that sells well is the Revell AG Beall tanker..

Tim

[mackinac359]

All of this discussion on scales.. if the north American kit makers would come up with new-modern subjects like Mobius is planning, we wouldn't have a need for this debate.

Tim

[cargostar]

Try building a Lonestar online....

http://www.internationaltrucks.com/mytruck/