What does "no selling on the forums" mean?

[matthijsgrit]

If we use a forum others created for us, why not just follow their "rules"?

Wouldn't that be what we would want ourselves if we facilitated someone else?

As stated before, there are enough ways this forum offers to get a deal, just not in plain sight.

Let's just accept that...

[azers]

There was a little article in f.s.m. about this exact thing. They don't allow buying or selling on their forum for exactly the same reasons. I think it was in their letter section.

[Deano]

Thank you, Terry, for that post. So far, the only valid reason listed in this thread for not having one here is Tom's comment about the possibility of loss of advertising revenue for the magazine. I guess what I find distasteful is the perpetual "we can't do that! we're not a store!" excuse, when it's really just a matter of personal preference. Just say "we don't know how to do it without drowning ourselves in it so we won't even try" and let that be that. Anything else is an insult to our intelligence. Maybe that flies fine with some...

But I digress. Plastic, here I come.

Actually, there's another over-riding valid reason: Gregg's Forum, Gregg's Rules. That pretty much sums it up.

[Casey]

I think you know where to find a forum that will accommodate your needs... All you need to do is ask

Anthony's signature line is a good example of adding a link to your forum, website, photo album, blog page, etc., so nobody needs to ask, "How do I order a set of Arvin Asp muffler from Joe's Resin?". They can click on the link in your signature line, which will take them directly to your website.

[Jeff Johnston]

plenty of members still PM me and expect me to do something about a trade when they feel like they're getting screwed over. Of course, I can't do anything, but the PMs keep coming.

man..seriously ? That's nuts. People actually PM you with trade deals gone bad ? (shaking my head).

Ok well if that happens I totally get the no selliing rule because you'd never dig out of the PMs.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Jeff Johnston

[sjordan2]

How about: "We do not have a bottomless pit of financial resources."

???

Adding a complete section like that -- with the kind of categories you find in newspapers (which are paid for) -- is not a simple task. And without categories, it would be just as crazy and disorganized as this site's Wanted section.

[Psychographic]

Actually I think it's a good thing to let a mod know a deal has gone sour. This should only be done once with the knowledge that you are only notifying them of the problem, nothing should be expected of the moderator. This way the people who run and control this site would know if they have a bad egg on the site.

What I can't understand, what's the difference between a trade or a sale? Both transactions can go bad.

[Casey]

Actually I think it's a good thing to let a mod know a deal has gone sour. This should only be done once with the knowledge that you are only notifying them of the problem, nothing should be expected of the moderator. This way the people who run and control this site would know if they have a bad egg on the site.

What I can't understand, what's the difference between a trade or a sale? Both transactions can go bad.

The problem is Moderators can't do anything about a "bad" trader. We aren't going to investigate every bad trade, double check and verify all tracking information, and we have no way of knowing exactly what was greed upon by the traders.

Yes, people PM me with concerns about trades gone awry, taking a long time, or when they've been flat out ripped off. I feel bad for anyone who has been on the bad end of a trade (it's happened to me three times), but it's going to happen, and everyone has to decide if any and all trades are worth the risk to them. I even added a pinned Trading Guidelines post to the Trade/Wanted sections to make it perfectly clear that trading is a risk, so there's not much more I can add.

My personal preference would be for each member who keep a list in the "Good Traders" post to add a "PM me before you consider trading with __________ ___________ " to their list. It gets the point across, or at least should.

The way I look at it, the Trade/Wanted sections here are a bonus for all of us. I'm glad we have them and hope we always do, but if it ever gets to a point where those sections are being abused (like the chat room was ), I would understand if they were no longer part of the forum. There are plenty of places (and one GIANT place, eBay) to sell and buy to your heart's content on the internet, and the MCM Forum just happens to not be one of those places.

[martinfan5]

There are plenty of places (and one GIANT place, eBay) to sell and buy to your heart's content on the internet, and the MCM Forum just happens to not be one of those places.

I dont understand why people make a big deal about not being able to sell on here, its pretty simple really, its how Greg wants it to be, and that should be enough.

[Guest Johnny]

Oh nooooooo!

Did the powers that be actually just post for all the whole world to see that ripoff artists can come here and rip off members without fear of repercussion???

[mikemodeler]

I see both sides of the issue and while I would like to see a section where one could sell models, in the end it is Gregg's forum and his rules.

I am sure he thought long and hard before he made his rules and we have to accept them, like it or not!

While I have seen some borderline abuse of advertising/selling rules, for the most part the moderators tend to "nip it in the bud".

[highway]

Example B: What if Resin Caster Joe posted this instead: "I have a wide selection of cool resin parts. Check them out at www.resincasterjoe.com"

Is that also considered selling? In my opinion, that would be allowed, because the actual sales information is not listed, but only a link to where the product can be bought. In my opinion a link to a product is allowed. I'd like Gregg and Casey to add their thoughts.

Hmmmmm, what brought the change of heart on that Harry, because I remember an instance about a year or so back that makes this statement one of those "the pot calling the kettle black" type of statements.

In case you probably don't remember to what I'm referring to, there was a thread in the truck section that was posted by a resin caster popular in the truck section that was posting pics of his new products. We active in the truck section all know how to contact this resin caster, and it was just pics of his new offerings on his website, nothing more. I seem to remember you telling him no selling was allowed and soon the threads went "POOF" to the land of deleted threads. There were no prices, just pics, and still..........

Oh, and did I mention that resin caster also is an advertiser in the magazine itself??

[highway]

Promoting ones own goods and/or services is called "sales"

Someone else promoting your goods and services is called a referral (excluding salesmen)

B: Sales. Just because price isn't mentioned doesn't meant "check out these cool parts on my web site, they are free or I will trade for incomplete '90's Nascar kits.

Many ads have no prices listed.

I don't see how that is "sales", but I guess I just see things differently.

[jbwelda]

> This way the people who run and control this site would know if they have a bad egg on the site.

yeah a bad egg. problem is, which one is the bad egg? you cant just take someones word that they are jesus and the other person satan. more often than not there is a problem on both ends. and moderators cant be expected to dig through everything to figure out who is at fault, even if they wanted to. not that i think that should lead to no selling, i just think that when problems arise its incumbent on the involved parties to either figure it out or eat the loss themselves, dont start p*ssing contests on the forums or even worse try to get an "authority" figure involved. but thats not the way of the world, so many people need "mom" around to help them when things dont go their way even though thats largely a problem only between the two parties...so we end up with more "zero tolerance" rules and everyone suffers. way to go whiners.

[Von Don Koolkat]

A "no sales" policy makes sense to me. I had to make the same policy on my Facebook forum. Facebook has plenty of buy,sell, trade pages devoted to just that. It frequently results in excessive drama due to poor behavior by one person or another.

[CadillacPat]

Thank you, Terry, for that post. So far, the only valid reason listed in this thread for not having one here is Tom's comment about the possibility of loss of advertising revenue for the magazine. I guess what I find distasteful is the perpetual "we can't do that! we're not a store!" excuse, when it's really just a matter of personal preference. Just say "we don't know how to do it without drowning ourselves in it so we won't even try" and let that be that. Anything else is an insult to our intelligence. Maybe that flies fine with some...

But I digress. Plastic, here I come.

I have to pick this one apart here,

This is all so silly, so what, you can't buy and sell, so what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote: So far, the only valid reason listed in this thread for not having one here is Tom's--------

Does this mean that all other reasons are invalid befause they are not your reasons????????

Doesn't this demonize everyone else and ridicule their opinions????

quote: I guess what I find distasteful is the perpetual "we can't do that! we're not a store!" excuse,-----

Okay, so you feel that is distasteful. I find licorice distasteful but it's no big deal to me.

quote: Anything else is an insult to our intelligence----------

Again wih the selfdetermined thoughts of a supposed majority of the site. I'l be the first to say I am not included in that "our" group.

If that really insults your intelligence you must have had a heart attack when Beyonce did her halftime "show", Now that was an insult to anyone who has intelligence..

If I wanted to sell something, as I have with those who have PM'd me, I would never expect a site to be accountable for the transaction.

Nor would I raise a public fuss if the deal went south.

If anyone needs a special portion of the site to Buy and Sell stuff, it is because they do not want to go to the trouble of setting up their own site for that purpose.

It is always easier to get on someone else's gravytrain.

CadillacPat

[Psychographic]

> This way the people who run and control this site would know if they have a bad egg on the site.

yeah a bad egg. problem is, which one is the bad egg? you cant just take someones word that they are jesus and the other person satan. more often than not there is a problem on both ends. and moderators cant be expected to dig through everything to figure out who is at fault, even if they wanted to. not that i think that should lead to no selling, i just think that when problems arise its incumbent on the involved parties to either figure it out or eat the loss themselves, dont start p*ssing contests on the forums or even worse try to get an "authority" figure involved. but thats not the way of the world, so many people need "mom" around to help them when things dont go their way even though thats largely a problem only between the two parties...so we end up with more "zero tolerance" rules and everyone suffers. way to go whiners.

My point was if a the mods get multiple reports of bad deals concerning one person it's pretty obvious you have someone who's scamming others out of merchandise.

[mikemodeler]

My point was if a the mods get multiple reports of bad deals concerning one person it's pretty obvious you have someone who's scamming others out of merchandise.

To your point David, about the only thing the moderators could do is limit the offender's ability to post or belong here. There isn't much Harry, Casey or Gregg can do about transactions gone bad. I am not a seller on eBay or too familiar with eBay rules but my understanding is that you can lose your privileges if there are enough complaints.

Most of us have figured out how to deal with the rules.

[Psychographic]

To your point David, about the only thing the moderators could do is limit the offender's ability to post or belong here. There isn't much Harry, Casey or Gregg can do about transactions gone bad. I am not a seller on eBay or too familiar with eBay rules but my understanding is that you can lose your privileges if there are enough complaints.

Most of us have figured out how to deal with the rules.

From my original post.

"This should only be done once with the knowledge that you are only notifying them of the problem, nothing should be expected of the moderator."

[mikemodeler]

From my original post.

"This should only be done once with the knowledge that you are only notifying them of the problem, nothing should be expected of the moderator."

If nothing is expected of the moderator, why bother them in the first place? As they have noted, they get a ton of PMs and sorting through those that are just "notices" keeps them from other things, including contributing to this forum.

Not looking for an argument, but when it comes to selling or trading, the rule I go by "is only part with a kit or money if you can afford to lose it". I don't expect someone else to fix a bad deal for me. I have had my share of good and bad trades and I keep a list of those for future reference.

[Harry P.]

Let me explain this again, so everyone (I hope) understands it.

Someone posts this: I just saw a really cool resin body for a "57 Chevy conversion. Check it out at Joe's Resin Shack.

Or someone has this in their signature line: Check out my cool new resin at Joe's Resin Shack

Those could be considered "selling" by some, I guess, but I would say they're more like "advertising." A reference or referral as to where to go in order to buy something is ok to post, because any actual sale is not taking place here, but on another site.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have my new "57 Chevy resin conversion kit in stock now. To buy it send a check for $XX to Joe's Resin Shack, 123 Main Street, USA.

That is selling on the forum. If someone posts a thread that allows for a product or service to be bought directly here on the forum without needing to go anywhere else to buy it, that is considered selling on the forum and is not allowed. We don't want to be held accountable or responsible for a sale gone bad, a dissatisfied customer, or any other potential problems selling here would inevitably bring on, whether justified or not. I can see the PMs already... "I bought this kit on the Model Cars forum and I got ripped off. Model Cars owes me my money back."

Buying and selling is not one of the functions of this forum. We already have enough problems with angry or dissatisfied traders, we don't want to add angry or dissatisfied buyers and sellers, too.

A referral or a reference to a product or website is ok. Placing an ad that allows for direct buying of the product right here on the forum is considered "selling on the forums" and is not allowed.

I don't know how I can possibly explain it any more clearly. If anyone still doesn't understand the difference between selling and referrals, PM me.

[mikemodeler]

In May of last year I posted that I had some kits I wanted to sell and to contact me via PM as I was not going to sell on the forum per the rules. My post was taken down within hours. I sent a PM to Gregg and he explained to me his rules and how the forum was run, which I accepted as he pays for it and I am a guest.

Other members here post about the products they have for sale and use links to purchase said products and that is acceptable to the moderators.

I fail to see the difference in the two scenarios above but will consider this my last post on this topic as the horse is being prepared for the dog food canning process.

[LoneWolf15]

Just my opinion ....

We are skating on thin ice here with a chance of hurting the aftermarket industry . Harry explained the rules quite clearly . Casey stated that in his opinion , there is a razor thin line involved with this subject between advertising and promotion which I agree with , up to a point .....

Being a member of the aftermarket cottage industry , I pay for advertisement , whether it be through the magazines , my website , or the online forums . Without it , I'd be dead in the water. Even more importantly , however , is other individuals who purchased my DVDs , promoting their worth in the magazines , on the forums , YouTube , chat rooms , etc . This is what fuels the motor for a business and keeps the lights on and the doors open !

Every chance I get , I praise an individual's product that I find worthy of it , here's why . By doing so , I help that individuals sales grow , which allows them to garner the funds to create even more products for the aftermarket industry . This also helps the hobby itself , by informing other individuals of said products worth , they purchase them , more funds for more product development . Simply put , I'll have more options to work with , and more toys to play with , be they tools , kits , parts , paints , etc !

Revell comes out with a new kit , the resin industry comes out with a different body to go with said kit . Bob Dudek machines a specific set of wheels and head light buckets , while Slixx puts out a new set of decals that enables us to build three different drag versions of Revell's new offering . The industry is a circle that feeds each and every part of itself through promotion via the Internet , forums , and magazines .

If an individual or company cannot afford to advertise , how better to help them and the hobby expand and grow by simply promoting through word of mouth or the keyboard via the forums .

Need aluminum machined parts ? Go see Dudek ! Braided line ? Go to Charlie at Pro Tech ! Badge decals ? Keith Marks , he's the best ! Resin parts ? Eddie Fluck , The MADD Modelers of Detroit , RMR , Competition Resin , etc . Am I advertising here ? Nope ! I am not making one red cent off of them by doing this , I am promoting their excellent line of products . By doing so , I am helping their business and our hobby grow , as should we all !

We have seen quite a few worthwhile companies and products disappear over the last few years for a variety of reasons . The last thing I want to see is this forum or a rule change being the demise of even more ...... Think about that !

[sjordan2]

Well stated, Donn, and I think everything you said seems to fall under the category of fair comment and the guidelines Harry described. I'd like to hear reponses from people who had posts or threads removed because of the "selling" aspect, and to reproduce the content of the removed posts so we can see what isn't allowed.

[mikemodeler]

Donn,

I have been a huge promoter of your DVDs ( bought both of them) and have directed people to them when they ask for help with their painting skills. I appreciate what you have done for the hobby with them and agree that you do not have an advertising budget like Revell to promote them.

However, you state that promoting is not advertising and I fail to understand that. In my promotion of your DVDs I was specific as to how to contact you for ordering of your DVDs, a type of subtle advertising, no? If I wanted to make sure that I did not "advertise" Donn Yost's DVDs, then I would have simply said "there is a forum member here who has produced some helpful DVDs, try to find out who that is" and that could not be construed as being an advertisement.

Bottom line, in my book, is that you produced a DVD to share with the hobby and put a price tag on them, thereby "selling" them. I understand that the sale of the DVD has not allowed you to retire or buy that vacation home in the Cayman Islands, but the fact of the matter is that you created a business once you sold the first one, even if it was to cover your costs.

My argument is that I want to sell some of my model kit collection and re-invest that money back into this hobby. I do not have a hobby shop or hobby related business, just a model builder and collector like most of us. What I find troubling is that if I want to sell my kits, I am told to go to eBay or a local show while cottage industry types get the benefit of selling, albeit discreetly, on the forum.

My issue isn't with you or any of the many resin casters or other cottage companies, it is with the double standard that I perceive to exist here. I accept the fact that Gregg has chosen not to have a "marketplace" for active selling, but see so many instances of "walking that fine line" that it irritates me from time to time.

Rant over, back to our regularly scheduled programming.