What Irked You Today?

[Tom Geiger]

The issue with windmills and solar panels is the amount of real estate they take up. Not feasible in a lot of areas, but great in the wide open spaces. Off shore windmills where nobody from land can see them are just fine. In fact, driving home from the Toledo show to New Jersey, you see a lot of windmills from Route 80. And I think they look cool in the wide open spaces.

The government had energy policies that made solar panels near free to home owners and businesses. In fact the parking lots at Philly's stadium look like car ports. they all have solar panels on the roofs. The high school in my NJ town did the same in their parking lots.

The only negative is the visual. I hate when home owners put the solar panels on the front of a house, just looks like heck. My HOA has it in the bylaws that solar panels are only allowed on the back of homes. Amen.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Tom Geiger

[Harry P.]

The issue isn't that nobody "owns" the wind or the sun. The issue is that power-generation companies have been foot-dragging for many many years because that's what hidebound humans do...resist change for as long as possible, even if the change is entirely logical, easy, profitable and NECESSARY.

Yup.

Nobody owns the sun or the wind, that's true. But a company that sold DIY, consumer friendly, easily installed solar panels or wind turbines could make a fortune selling the products necessary to take advantage of the sun and the wind. I still don't understand why we don't see these products on the shelves at Home Depot. I guess Bill is right... change is hard, and fundamental change is even harder.

But if I was a big oil company, I'd be all over solar and wind. I'd be pushing it big time, because I know the product I currently sell can only last so long, and I'd want to get a good solid foothold in emerging alternatives.

[Harry P.]

Because no one can own the wind or sun. One of the reasons fossil fuels are still used to the extent that they are. People can own the oil and coal, but they can't own the wind or sun, you can't charge outrageous prices for the wind!

But you wouldn't be selling sun or wind. You would be selling the products that allow you to access the sun and wind to produce energy.

[Ace-Garageguy]

The only negative is the visual. I hate when home owners put the solar panels on the front of a house, just looks like heck. My HOA has it in the bylaws that solar panels are only allowed on the back of homes. Amen.

Kinda had to chuckle at that one. Solar panels kinda need to be...wait for it...in the sun.

[southpier]

yeah; alcohol stimulates brain cell regeneration.

[slusher]

But you wouldn't be selling sun or wind. You would be selling the products that allow you to access the sun and wind to produce energy.

The Amish have solar setups to charge the batteries for the lights on their buggies. Saw it on Television. So some company is making panels for sale but I cant remember it being mentioned ..

[Ace-Garageguy]

The Amish have solar setups to charge the batteries for the lights on their buggies. Saw it on Television. So some company is making panels for sale but I cant remember it being mentioned ..

Fascinating that the Amish have embraced the technology. Thanks for bringing that to our attention, really.

Fact is though, solar panels have been available since the 1950s...the prices have just been high due to low demand and production numbers, and the efficiencies weren't very good for the cost, which led to low demand and production numbers. A vicious circle.

Today, with increasing awareness (that could have easily been fostered 50 years ago) and vastly improved efficiencies (that also could have probably been approached many years ago if the desire and capitalization had been there), many manufacturers are producing competitively-priced solar arrays. You can even buy them at Home Depot. http://www.homedepot.com/b/Electrical-Alternative-Energy-Solutions-Solar-Power-Solar-Panels/N-5yc1vZbm31

[Tom Geiger]

The Amish have solar setups to charge the batteries for the lights on their buggies. Saw it on Television. So some company is making panels for sale but I cant remember it being mentioned ..

Fascinating that the Amish have embraced the technology. Thanks for bringing that to our attention, really.

I live pretty close to the Lancaster area here in PA. The Amish have work arounds for much of everything. When my cousin was building his house, the Amish crew showed up in a truck and power tools. They can't drive a truck, but are allowed to ride in it! So they add a Mennonite guy to the crew. Power tools? They aren't allowed to OWN them, but if someone else owns them, they can USE them! Technicalities!

Many of them use electricity on their farms. They now say that electricity is okay... but having wires to their house makes them connected to the English world (their term for anyone not Amish), so the work around is that they have gas and propane generators to provide their electricity. Phones? They went with the technicality that they couldn't have them IN THEIR HOUSE. So everyone has a small phone shack, which looks like an outhouse in their yard for their phone. And I had wondered why our Home Depot had propane powered refrigerators.. yea, they use those.

We were at an Amish farm market store, way out in the country. They had refrigerator cases and freezers, along with an electronic cash register that took credit cards. When I asked about that, they said that the state board of health dictated the refrigerators and freezers for health code.... and once they had the power anyway, they went for the register! Reminder, I need to go back there and get more of their hot pepper relish... amazing stuff!

Such cunning work arounds!

They all work for a living, some owning extensive and successful farms. They pay taxes and use English services like doctors and hospitals. They have no dietary restrictions so you'll see them in Wendy's. There is buggy parking outside the big box stores in Lancaster. So they have no problem buying things at Walmart or Target.

And the Amish wagons. I asked and was told that there are two Amish companies that make these and new ones go for around $6500. Of course neither has a website! (Hmm honey, should we get the black one or the gray one?) They have what amounts to a car battery for the lights, which are dictated by law. There is a generator attached to one of the wheels, and although I didn't hear or see it, I believe they would use the solar chargers.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Harry P.

[Harry P.]

You can even buy them at Home Depot. http://www.homedepot.com/b/Electrical-Alternative-Energy-Solutions-Solar-Power-Solar-Panels/N-5yc1vZbm31

Looks like they are all sold "online only," sight unseen, not on store shelves. I wonder why that is? You would think that in 2014 a large chain of home centers would have a "solar panel" department or aisle by now... with consumer info, charts to compare the different panels, specs, etc.

[slusher]

I live pretty close to the Lancaster area here in PA. The Amish have work arounds for much of everything.

Thanks for all the info on some of their work arounds. I find it interesting on how they work and farm. I saw the solar charging set up with the solar panels mounted on a pole and connected straight to a battery like a solar light basically charges the battery in the daytime.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Looks like they are all sold "online only," sight unseen, not on store shelves. I wonder why that is? You would think that in 2014 a large chain of home centers would have a "solar panel" department or aisle by now... with consumer info, charts to compare the different panels, specs, etc.

Just a guess, but the typical HD customer isn't going to have a clue what to do with a solar panel, they're still a little on the fragile side, and the more tech-savvy customers are likely to do their comparison shopping online anyway.

HD's strategy just may be to see which regions start buying the stuff in sufficient numbers before committing to begin stocking them in actual stores.

[Harry P.]

I'm amazed that there isn't a consumer-friendly, DIY solar panel "kit in a box" available somewhere, simple enough for Joe Average to understand and be able to install. Maybe sold as different sized kits, depending on how many panels are included... 4 panel kit, 8 panel kit, 12 panel kit, etc. Seems like such a no-brainer. I would think we would have seen something like this, at a consumer-friendly price, on the mass market by now.

I guess there are reasons why not, but I don't get it.

[forthlin]

Going to the dentist. I have to be there in an hour to have some cavities filled & I'm none to happy about it.

[Guest]

I'm amazed that there isn't a consumer-friendly, DIY solar panel "kit in a box" available somewhere, simple enough for Joe Average to understand and be able to install. Maybe sold as different sized kits, depending on how many panels are included... 4 panel kit, 8 panel kit, 12 panel kit, etc. Seems like such a no-brainer. I would think we would have seen something like this, at a consumer-friendly price, on the mass market by now.

I guess there are reasons why not, but I don't get it.

I can give you 2 reasons -

One is liability, the other is the IBEW doesn't want DIY'ers getting into a market that they haven't cornered, yet. Eventually solar and wind will become common place but there are still many unknown hazards that the National Electrical Code hasn't fully addressed.

[Ace-Garageguy]

I'm amazed that there isn't a consumer-friendly, DIY solar panel "kit in a box" available somewhere, simple enough for Joe Average to understand and be able to install.

I guess there are reasons why not, but I don't get it.

Installing solar panels requires some thought (and knowledge), requires working on the roof, most likely installing supports for the panels on the roof that might have fasteners go THROUGH the roof and cause leaks, the panels need to be oriented correctly relative to the sun to work well, the electrical interface, though not complex, requires SOME electrical knowledge to avoid burning the house down...not daunting for you or me, but for the typical DIYer...hmmm. LOTS of potential liability issues when Joe Average falls off the now-leaking roof, electrocutes himself, and ignites the house.

I've seen SO much bodged work done by "professionals" in multiple fields, that I'm reluctant to think it's a really good idea to have mouth-breathers installing solar equipment.

The people who frequent this particular forum are NOT the norm in several respects, one of which is being able to follow somewhat detailed instructions. That particular ability doesn't seem to be widespread in the general population.

I say this with something to back it up. Over the years I've attempted to hire apprentices several times, offering truly excellent pay for someone with no prior experience. One of the requisite qualifications (besides basic mechanical aptitude and being able to work with one's hands) was "must be able to read and follow written instructions". I got ZERO qualified responses.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[Harry P.]

What if you have consecutive cloudy days? I know the power company can pick up the slack. But, that kinda defeats the purpose IMO.

From what I've seen, a solar system can use electricity made on sunny days and stored, on cloudy days. Of course in the winter it's common to have long stretches with no sun, so not sure how that would work. I guess where we are at today, solar power would still be considered a supplemental system, not your primary power generation system... although with the correct setup and in favorable conditions it can be done.

[Harry P.]

Installing solar panels requires some thought (and knowledge), requires working on the roof...

The local home centers here sell roof shingles. And they sell skylights. They require you to work on the roof, too. With sharp objects that penetrate the roof (nails). Or even cutting a hole in your roof! If there is no product liability issue with roof shingles or skylights, I don't see how a solar panel kit would be any different. Sure, installing the kit is probably beyond the skills of the average homeowner, but so is installing a skylight or new roof shingles... and they sell those!

If solar kits were widely available I'm sure that a bunch of solar panel installation contractors would also pop up, just like people who install roofs and skylights.

I guess what I'm really saying is that, given the fact that solar panels are proven to work, are relatively simple to install, and are pretty reliable and long-lived... I'm curious why a kit like I've described isn't widely available to the general public, packed in a box, at a reasonable price, on the shelf at the home center. Maybe next to the roof shingles and skylights...

[Ace-Garageguy]

Roger (and anybody else reading this)...I don't know how serious you are about saving energy costs, but my electrical bill at the 3000 sq.ft. house I recently moved from rarely exceeded $50 per month, and the 1375 sq.ft. house I'm in now is even less, though it's a worse neighborhood and requires all-night floodlights outside. I run a 5-hp air compressor, a mill and a lathe, as necessary, and do a large load of laundry weekly (electric drier or line-dry when possible).

I haven't used the AC in years...I open the house at night, after the sun has gone down, and pull cool air in with a full-house exhaust fan. Then I close the house before going to work. The indoor temperature right now is 75 (last night's low was 72, so the house only got down that far) but it's 90 outside. By dusk, the indoors will be up to about 78, and I'll turn on the exhaust fan again.

I also replaced ALL my lighting with compact-fluorescent bulbs years ago, and as they burn out, I'm replacing them with LEDs that use even less energy and last virtually forever. I also only use power that I really need, turning stuff off when I don't.

I heat (both places) with gas, and in winter my worst bill was never more than $130 (average around $60) mainly because I kept the house at around 65 degrees. I don't mind wearing a sweater to save money.

I'm never uncomfortable, but it's not a lifestyle everyone would accept, being used to full-time AC and/or heat. But an energy-use approach like mine, coupled with a low-power solar unit, could reduce your power costs to near zero, and you'd still have the backup of the grid during extended bad weather.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

The local home centers here sell roof shingles. And they sell skylights. They require you to work on the roof, too. With sharp objects that penetrate the roof (nails). Or even cutting a hole in your roof! If there is no product liability issue with roof shingles or skylights, I don't see how a solar panel kit would be any different.

First, I think that having some well-engineered kits for the DIY market would be wonderful. I'd buy one tomorrow, seriously. And I might even consider starting an installation company.

Second, what MAY be the liability issue COULD be something similar to what a friend / client of mine encountered when trying to get QVC to pick up her product, an earring accessory. They declined because they were of the opinion she had insufficient product-liability insurance to risk it. The amount they required was cost-prohibitive from her start-up cash-flow position.

Selling individual components as they (Home Despot) do...I'd assume each one would come with a page of lawyer-speak advising "this product is intended to be installed by trained professionals" or some such attempting to limit liability if it's used by idiots (similar to the wording on just about everything you get at the body-shop-supply these days). The Chinese (most likely) component manufacturers can avoid hefty product-liability insurance and still be carried by the HD web store.

Kits just MIGHT take the consumer-targeted (as opposed to "trained professionals") product-liability issue to a whole new level. Just a guess.

PS. I'm SURE someone has sued HD already for driving a nail through his hand while trying to re-shingle his roof, or for the poorly installed skylight leaking all over Granny's priceless heirloom table. It's ALWAYS somebody else's fault.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[Harry P.]

I don't think "liability" has much to do with HD and others not selling solar panels in-store. They sell all kinds of ultra-dangerous stuff... paint thinner, power tools, saw blades, paint strippers, circuit breaker main panels, etc., etc., any of which can cause serious harm or death if misused or installed incorrectly. If they can sell chain saws and weed whackers, they can sell solar panels. Liability can't be the issue... the issue is lack of a consumer-friendly DIY-type solar kit. For whatever reason, nobody is manufacturing such a kit, and I can't see why not. Even if it couldn't supply all of your home's power demand, it could be sold as an add-on that could "slash your electric bill by 50% or more!" (or some sort of claim like that).

On "This Old House" they're always showcasing the latest technology, and they are big on solar. They have installed solar panel systems that not only supply all the home's electricity, but even more... and that excess is sold to the electric company! So not only are you getting free electricity (after the cost of the system is paid off)... you're actually making money.

Obviously a large system like that is expensive and far beyond DIY... but a smaller, simpler, self-contained kit could easily be marketed to the consumer. So why isn't it?

[Guest]

I don't think "liability" has much to do with HD and others not selling solar panels in-store. They sell all kinds of ultra-dangerous stuff... paint thinner, power tools, saw blades, paint strippers, circuit breaker main panels, etc., etc., any of which can cause serious harm or death if misused or installed incorrectly. If they can sell chain saws and weed whackers, they can sell solar panels. Liability can't be the issue... the issue is lack of a consumer-friendly DIY-type solar kit.

Sometimes I think you should have been a radio talk show host...

[Ace-Garageguy]

My point was that a retailer can refuse to carry a product if the MANUFACTURER has what the retailer considers to be insufficient insurance. EVERY manufacturer of ANYTHING sold at HD will have extensive liability insurance in place, and it probably makes up a significant proportion of cost-of-product. Neither HD nor any other retailer is willing to accept the ENTIRE liability for a product, and the solar-panel guys may not have enough right now. As cheap as the panels are for their power output, it's a distinct possibility.

BUT, you may also be ENTIRELY right, and it may only be a lack of suitable kits.

PS. Google "solar diy kits"...

Edited August 22, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[Harry P.]

But they sell them online!

That's what I don't get... they sell them online, but not in-store.

Oh well... whatever. Next topic!

[Mike Kucaba]

I've seriously thought about using solar power. I even did a little research on it. Supposedly, for around ten -eleven grand I could get a setup that would supply all of my needs. It was based on square footage. I have just under 2000. If I knew for sure without a doubt that it would work reliably, I would do it in a heartbeat. I could set up a ten grand loan for five years and save a lot of money still. My electric bill rarely goes under $200 a month and can soar to over $400 in the winter. I think the problem with solar power is the unknown. For me it is. The initial money isn't a big concern. It's what could it cost for maintenance and repairs later. What if you have consecutive cloudy days? I know the power company can pick up the slack. But, that kinda defeats the purpose IMO.

Well, I don't know where"in the middle" is so I don't know your climate. Here in AZ as I understand it you generate electricity and what you don't use you sell back to the utility. On days when your personal use exceeds your ability to generate ,the utility picks up the slack, and your charged for that. I visited here in 2000 and was surprised that there wasn't more solar. Now that I lived here since 2008 I'm stunned! IT must be a conspiracy!!

[Harry P.]

Another thing I don't understand is why the big oil companies aren't all over solar technology.

They sell a product that is going to run out one day, a product that everyone is desperately trying to wean themselves from. So why not pour some of those billions of profit dollars into solar technology and develop cheap, reliable solar panel systems and get a jump on an emerging market?

Seems like smart business sense. When ExxonMobil doesn't have any more oil to sell, they could then sell ExxonMobil solar panel systems, and if they got into alt energy now, they would probably own the largest chunk of the market for a long time to come.