Clear coating race car models. Should they be that shiny?!

[kalbert]

Yes, I was wondering the same thing. I've got an old 7-11 IMSA mustng I've started decalling the body of. I did clear it with Future, mainly to keep old decals down. Is there a semi-gloss or flat clear available that doesn't need an airbrush to use? I've got a Mark Martin Valvoline T-bird I need to clear.

I've used Krylon Matt Finish in a spray can from the craft store to knock down the shine on model trains and things. It's not flat flat, but it's pretty flat. Don't know how it would go over Future, I imagine it would be ok but I don't know for sure.

[Gluhead]

Guys, he's not asking about the proper placement of a clear coat in relation to decals.

He's talking about the main thing about contests that has bugged the carp out of me for ages -- walking into a show and seeing a sea of gleaming, dipped-in-syrup-shiny, so-glossy-you-can-see-your-nosehairs-in-the-reflection...race cars.

Jim, it may be a lost cause, but I totally understand where you're coming from. The majority, however, seem to be blind to scale sheen, and like Pavlov's Dogs to the Bell start drooling uncontrollably at the sight of 2 scale inches of clearcoat.

Oddly enough, the way people talk about it on a forum, you'd think that you'd never walk into a show and see super-shine, yet walk into any show, and there it is...wall-to-wall. You'd think it were crack!

[Jantrix]

Frankly in contest, finish is what draws the eye. For a judge or any onlooker. Finish is what gets judged first. Finish is what knocks a field of 15 in the category down to 5.

So yes it is out of scale, and yes, probably not appropriate for a race car. But try to win a category without it.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Jantrix

[Harry P.]

Frankly in contest, finish is what draws the eye. For a judge or any onlooker. Finish is what gets judged first. Finish is what knocks a field of 15 in the category down to 5.

So yes it is out of scale, and yes, probably not appropriate for a race car. But try to win a category without it.

If what you're saying is true, and I have no reason to doubt you, that means model cars are very poorly judged... or at the least, incorrectly judged. Judged not on how accurate a representation of the real thing they are... but on, "ooooh, look! shiny!"

[kalbert]

Guys, he's not asking about the proper placement of a clear coat in relation to decals.

He's talking about the main thing about contests that has bugged the carp out of me for ages -- walking into a show and seeing a sea of gleaming, dipped-in-syrup-shiny, so-glossy-you-can-see-your-nosehairs-in-the-reflection...race cars.

Jim, it may be a lost cause, but I totally understand where you're coming from. The majority, however, seem to be blind to scale sheen, and like Pavlov's Dogs to the Bell start drooling uncontrollably at the sight of 2 scale inches of clearcoat.

Oddly enough, the way people talk about it on a forum, you'd think that you'd never walk into a show and see super-shine, yet walk into any show, and there it is...wall-to-wall. You'd think it were crack!

I don't think it's a lost cause, or that the majority is blind to the "scale sheen" or that they go ape about crazy amounts of clear. I think the majority just likes their race cars shiny. Go ahead and skip the gloss clear on your models if you want, I'll keep on shooting a little Future on mine.

[Gluhead]

As I mentioned, the popular opinion online is one thing, and the reality as one looks across a typical contest table is another.

[Gluhead]

If what you're saying is true, and I have no reason to doubt you, that means model cars are very poorly judged... or at the least, incorrectly judged. Judged not on how accurate a representation of the real thing they are... but on, "ooooh, look! shiny!"

Pavlov, I have your bell!

[IMSANUT]

If what you're saying is true, and I have no reason to doubt you, that means model cars are very poorly judged... or at the least, incorrectly judged. Judged not on how accurate a representation of the real thing they are... but on, "ooooh, look! shiny!"

Yes, I'd agree.

[IMSANUT]

Guys, he's not asking about the proper placement of a clear coat in relation to decals.

He's talking about the main thing about contests that has bugged the carp out of me for ages -- walking into a show and seeing a sea of gleaming, dipped-in-syrup-shiny, so-glossy-you-can-see-your-nosehairs-in-the-reflection...race cars.

Jim, it may be a lost cause, but I totally understand where you're coming from. The majority, however, seem to be blind to scale sheen, and like Pavlov's Dogs to the Bell start drooling uncontrollably at the sight of 2 scale inches of clearcoat.

Oddly enough, the way people talk about it on a forum, you'd think that you'd never walk into a show and see super-shine, yet walk into any show, and there it is...wall-to-wall. You'd think it were crack!

Gluhead hits the nail square on the head. While I understand sheen is perhaps the first judgement, in the case of some cars it is plain wrong. But then again, look at the weathered cars that win. Certainly they are not shiny. Perhaps it is the judges who need education.......

[High octane]

You might also consider how you will be displaying your cars, how they will be exposed to the elements, and what they will look like 10 or more years down the road if they are not Cleared.

CadillacPat

Exposed to the elements? Do you keep them outside and display them on the deck rails?

[gtx6970]

Frankly in contest, finish is what draws the eye. For a judge or any onlooker. Finish is what gets judged first. Finish is what knocks a field of 15 in the category down to 5.

So yes it is out of scale, and yes, probably not appropriate for a race car. But try to win a category without it.

Ding ding ding we have a winner, give that man a cigar

And thats why I don't care to do contests,. It's not about accuracy, it's a beauty contest

just as an FYI

The most prestigious show in the world . The Peeble Beach Councors D'Elegance is that same thing

Edited April 17, 2013 by gtx6970

[kalbert]

The reality is, people like shiny race cars. "Accurate" or not, people like shiny race cars. Stupid judges do, ignorant visitors do, and simpleton modelers like me do. Nobody here is suggesting otherwise. Everybody pretty much agrees that shiny race car models are not correct. If you don't like shiny race cars you don't have to make them shiny!

Edited April 17, 2013 by kalbert

[kalbert]

A contest pretty much has to be about beauty. It would be impossible to gather enough judges in a room that have enough knowledge of every possible modeling subject to be able make informed judgement about accuracy to prototype.

[Harry P.]

A contest pretty much has to be about beauty. It would be impossible to gather enough judges in a room that have enough knowledge of every possible modeling subject to be able make informed judgement about accuracy to prototype.

Good point.

Everything has to be "dumbed down" (no offense meant, just a figure of speech). Which is why contests could be a very frustrating thing for a serious modeler who enters a thoroughly researched, highly accurate and well-done factory stock model and gets beat out by a model that looks like it was dipped in pancake syrup because the judges don't know better and are attracted to "shiny" like crows.

[CadillacPat]

Exposed to the elements? Do you keep them outside and display them on the deck rails?

Nick, are you aware that the air in your house carries dirt, grease and other airborne chemicals.

10 or 20 years of that takes its toll and will be much harder to clean off uncleared Models than those that have been clearcoated.

Don't worry about your outside deck. Dirt, dust and airborne grime is everywhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CadillacPat

[Harry P.]

And thats why I don't care to do contests,. It's not about accuracy, it's a beauty contest

just as an FYI

The most prestigious show in the world . The Peeble Beach Councors D'Elegance is that same thing

You're comparing apples and oranges here. A model contest and a Concours are two completely different types of events.

A model car, theoretically, at least (if it represents a real 1:1 car) should be judged at least party on accuracy and realism. In the Concours, the cars are not representing anything, they are the real cars, so "accuracy" or "realism" doesn't apply... all they're judged on is physical appearance (and correctness of restoration).

[CadillacPat]

Seems to be a lot of pent up anger directed at Contest judges.

Sour grapes.

What you must remember is that while some may build with a Contest in mind, the majority of Models on Contest tables are entered to show other people what Modelers have made.

People just like to display their work and I don't think Contests or Judges come in to play when they decide to enter their Models.

They just want to show what they have done.

CadillacPat

[Harry P.]

Seems to be a lot of pent up anger directed at Contest judges.

Sour grapes.

What you must remember is that while some may build with a Contest in mind, the majority of Models on Contest tables are entered to show other people what Modelers have made.

People just like to display their work and I don't think Contests or Judges come in to play when they decide to enter their Models.

They just want to show what they have done.

CadillacPat

That may be true for most people, but like I said, the way contests are judged can be very frustrating for a builder who does the research and sweats the details, only to get beat by "shiny," especially when "shiny" isn't necessarily correct for the subject.

[Art Laski]

Good point.

Everything has to be "dumbed down" (no offense meant, just a figure of speech). Which is why contests could be a very frustrating thing for a serious modeler who enters a thoroughly researched, highly accurate and well-done factory stock model and gets beat out by a model that looks like it was dipped in pancake syrup because the judges don't know better and are attracted to "shiny" like crows.

If you look at the way a model contest is supposed to be judged, the first thing that comes into consideration is the build quality, e.g. no glue marks, no paint blemishes, etc. Accurracy and details come after that. So I think it is also a matter of averages that the "shiny" builds have also had more attention paid to the other areas of build quality as well. So it stands to reason that a majority of the shiny builds are mostly the winners after the less shiny cars are eliminated for other reasons besides the accurancy of the sheen and the additional details.

[Art Laski]

To me, each project needs to be assessed on its own merits.

This pretty much sums it up for me.

[CadillacPat]

That may be true for most people, but like I said, the way contests are judged can be very frustrating for a builder who does the research and sweats the details, only to get beat by "shiny," especially when "shiny" isn't necessarily correct for the subject.

That is all an assumption.

How would you know that the Judge downgraded your Model because someone else's was "shiny".

I would hope that Adults who research and sweat the details, do so for their own enjoyment in hopes of producing a better piece, for their own personal enjoyment and achievement.

The correct "shiny" for a project is subjective.

And, just because a builder sweats and researches does not mean his talents produce a prize winning Model.

Contest are for kids.

Adults, some, attend contests to exchange info and enjoy looking at everything on the tables.

And of course ther are the rabid ones who must win or go home angry.

If a Judge picks your Model as the Winner then he is a knowledgeable well informed builder.

If he picks someone else's as the Winner then he is obviously biased and a Clear loving jerk.

I'm getting a vibe here that going the extra mile and applying a good ClearCoat is more than some may want to do.

CadillacPat

[Harry P.]

I'm getting a vibe here that going the extra mile and applying a good ClearCoat is more than some may want to do.

CadillacPat

Applying a clear coat where one isn't accurate isn't "going the extra mile."

My comments are based on what Jantrix said earlier, and I think he is correct... "shiny" catches most judge's eyes, and many (not all) judges favor the miles-thick shine over a model that may be less shiny, but actually correct. So if it's true that most judges like the shiny stuff, and they base their awards to a large extent on that (as Jantrix pointed out, not me!)... if that is actually true, then it's a fact that many judges are doing their job poorly.

[2002p51]

So many points to hit here. . . .

I agree with Harry on a couple of them. To me a model car should represent a 1:1 subject as accurately and correctly as possible. That includes the level of finish. I've been a race photographer covering the NASCAR Sprint Cup series for 30 years now I've never seen a 1:1 Cup car with a finish on it like the typical model. NEVER!

And now wraps are so popular and save the teams so much money, there's hardly a car in the garage any more than has any paint on it at all! It's all vinyl. And no, they're not clear coated because that defeats one of the main reasons for using a wrap; it comes off as easily as it went on. Now that sponsors are changed and rotated around from race to race, that's important.

I also agree with Harry on there being no need to "protect" decals if they are properly applied. There's a certain segment of this screwy hobby of ours that believes you are "supposed" to coat decals but that's a false paradigm. Like Harry, I too have models that are 30 plus years old with the decals showing no ill effects at all.

I think I have a bottle of clear gloss around here somewhere, but I'm not sure because I have no use for it!

And many people post " . .to each his own. . ." which just drives me nuts. That's just a cop out to excuse shoddy research, no research, or a lack of caring about my first point above. If you really believe that building model cars to accurately represent a full scale subject is what this hobby is all about, then you can't simply do what you want and you must get the details right and "to each his own" doesn't enter into it. Otherwise, you're just playing with little plastic cars.

Contests? OMG, all bets are off in contests. I've entered them, I've worked them, I've judged them. Many times I've been the "victim" of a judge who had no knowledge of what the real thing should look like and no clue what I was trying to represent with my model. I've been beaten by completely inaccurate models with incorrect features but the builders were "known" by the judge. There's nothing you can do about some of that stuff. So you try not to let it get to you and move on.

What else? Ummm, please remember that all of the above is my somewhat learned opinion after more than 50 years of participation in this hobby. Believe it or not, I have been threatened with physical harm for expressing these opinions on forums in the past. In fact there is one forum that I no longer participate in because of the "community thought" so prevalent there that does not accept any differing ideas or opinions.

This really is a crazy hobby, I love it dearly, but sometimes I think we are all nuts!

[kalbert]

So to the contest judging side bar... When I build models for a model railroad model contest generally one of the requirements is to produce a photograph of the car/scene/locomotive/whatever that depicts the subject modeled so the judges have a reference point. Perhaps something like this should spill over into car model contests in categories like racing cars or factory stock replicas to guide the judge's (and the rest of the audience)'s opinion?

[Danno]

Frankly in contest, finish is what draws the eye. For a judge or any onlooker. Finish is what gets judged first. Finish is what knocks a field of 15 in the category down to 5.

So yes it is out of scale, and yes, probably not appropriate for a race car. But try to win a category without it.

A contest pretty much has to be about beauty. It would be impossible to gather enough judges in a room that have enough knowledge of every possible modeling subject to be able make informed judgement about accuracy to prototype.

Some of you guys are painting a lot of contests with a broad brush. None of this happens at any of the events I've been involved with in promotion or judging, with one notable exception - the 'Best Finish' or 'Best Paint' master awards.

Having pointed out that obvious exception, let me tell you that it is not 'dipped in syrup' acrylic-paperweight-tarantula finishes that get the judges' attention or that win awards {other than the aforementioned 'Best Finish', which is judged differently}.

What gets judged first in my events is basic craftsmanship that displays cleanliness, purity, accuracy, and realistic replication of a viable vehicle.

What kicks the majority of entries into the 'also-ran' group at the back of the class is the absence of basic craftsmanship. I can't even begin to estimate how many very good models don't make the cut to the higher levels of judging because of glue smears, misfitted or misplaced or MISSING parts, sloppy assembly, untreated ejector-pin marks, untreated molding lines, or even bare plastic showing, let alone the wheels that don't touch the ground or point in differing directions. It's surprising how many models don't meet the requisites for the classes they are entered in. Those are the things that eliminate the vast majority of entries from the winners' circle.

Realistic finishes are often the tie-breakers. Honey-dipping is great for Christmas hams, but it seldom wins in our contests. An accurate finish is much higher on our Richter scale. If it's a dirt track circle-burner, it better not have any clear on it. Unless you can roll the 1:1 into our hall and show us it was dipped in goo. Customs, they probably better have a super-cleared finish because 1:1 customs do. Even then, if the clear is so deep the model has beveled hood, door and trunk openings, it ain't gonna beat an accurately finished model. If a NASCAR model wins in our contests with a ski-boat clearcoat, it must be because all the other NASCAR models are gluebombs or also have ski-boat clearcoats and the winner was a more credible presentation.

It may well happen elsewhere, I don't know. But it doesn't happen on my watch. I've had the guys with 37-part clears complain that their model should have won because it was shinier than all the others in the class, until I point out the basic flaws that their cokebottle clearcoat couldn't gloss over.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Danno