1/25 Revell Ford Del Rio Ranch Wagon 2'n'1

[Ace-Garageguy]

And for the 100 dozenth time, maybe for people who are new here...NO ONE EVER EXPECTED A PERFECT KIT.

What we expect, and what we deserve, is kits free from gross errors instantly obvious to anyone who's particularly familiar with the 1:1 subject.

This is NOT unreasonable "rivet counting". It's simply demanding we get what we pay for.

I think the Revell '57 Ford is a very nice kit. The very obvious errors on the outside of the body bother me, and I'll fix them. I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy

[Sledsel]

And for the 100 dozenth time, maybe for people who are new here...NO ONE EVER EXPECTED A PERFECT KIT.

What we expect, and what we deserve, is kits free from gross errors instantly obvious to anyone who's particularly familiar with the 1:1 subject.

This is NOT unreasonable "rivet counting". It's simply demanding we get what we pay for.

I think the Revell '57 Ford is a very nice kit. The very obvious errors on the outside of the body bother me, and I'll fix them. I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO.

Thank you...... the nail was squarely hit.

I am on this site to admire, learn and share. If some things I decide to share are taken in such a bad way, I'll just stop posting and just admire and learn. Seems my "opinion" on the kit in question has caused an uproar among many. Sorry, but I am just giving my "review" on an otherwise nice kit. '57 Fords are among my favorite cars, and yes, took me all of a millisecond to spot the issues. Other kits, I have had to research and LEARN.... because I am not to old to do that.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Sledsel

[lordairgtar]

I can see some of the errors in the design, but I can deal with it and hopefully the next subject out will be better if companies are paying attention to their consumers. I do get the feeling that whenever a test shot is leaked, a lot of the critics are online googling picks of the real car and going over it with a fine toothed comb just to find the flaw. no matter how miniscule...it's like a puzzle to them. Find the mistake, win the internet. Then there is the objective critic who finds the flaw and proposes a method of dealing with it. I don't mean to suggest we say it's good enough, but I think we should make our comments a bit less hateful sounding. Like saying I'm never buying this company's kits ever....but we all know you will. Real cars are not without their problems as well. I remember that the rear bumper on a 60 Buick sagged just a bit on one side. Some restored versions have fixed the issue but I prefer the sag as that is what I remember growing up riding in one....but I digress.

[Austin T]

So we've gone to comparing pieces of injection molded styrene that are created purely to provide a means of relaxation to machines that we entrust people's life with?

Glad to see that nothing has really changed around here.

[lordairgtar]

The only comparison I made was a sagging bumper. Basically a non issue. Just reminiscing. I would not give a pass to things related to safety. The sag was so miniscule that in a model, you would not notice it. I'm an artist and I notice things like this plus I've drawn automotive art since the 80s so I see things and I can see the differences in a model in regards to real cars.

[Guest]

Again, these so called "issues" with the bodies on these models are not major things like 57 Chevy chrome trim on a 57 Ford. Just not worth getting this worked up about. And definatly NOT comparable to the space shuttle blowing up.

[Ace-Garageguy]

So we've gone to comparing pieces of injection molded styrene that are created purely to provide a means of relaxation to machines that we entrust people's life with?

... And definatly NOT comparable to the space shuttle blowing up.

I would think with all the hyperbole and stupid exaggeration about "if we ask for perfect kits all the model companies will act like 5-year-old spoiled babies and take their toys and go home", it would be easy to recognize my exaggeration to make a point.

Apparently not. The point is:

A damm job is a job.

A job is where you get money in exchange for doing something CORRECTLY.

.Do it right, or do something where it doesn't matter to ANYONE if you can't.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

I do get the feeling that whenever a test shot is leaked, a lot of the critics are online googling picks of the real car and going over it with a fine toothed comb just to find the flaw.

Maybe if someone in product development was doing a little more of that, there wouldn't be so many complaints.

Exactly that should be a part of someone's job...and speaking up about it...before final tooling is cut.

You really can't make the lame excuse that it would add all this supposed cost to the model, or destroy all the company's profits.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy

[Tom Geiger]

Again, these so called "issues" with the bodies on these models are not major things like 57 Chevy chrome trim on a 57 Ford. Just not worth getting this worked up about. And definatly NOT comparable to the space shuttle blowing up.

Thanks for saving me the typing. Again we are dealing with TOYS. Nothing life threatening. And believe me I know the difference, I've worked in the pharmaceutical industry for 35 years. Totally different animal.

Bill, the issue really is that guys who get all worked up over this kind of accuracy are less than 1% of the overall kit consumers. Most of the kits sold go out to casual builders, some of which don't even paint the parts, who think the kit is just spectacular. In business, you aim to please the majority of your potential consumers, and not the less than 1%, many of which you will never please.

I do agree that the kit manufacturers should do their very best. And I know many of the folks internal to these companies and they really try. Budgets and deadlines, as well as the expectations of their AVERAGE consumer dictates when enough is enough. When judged that the majority of customers will be tickled pink, VS going back though one more revision cycle at say $50,000. they just can't do it. Which leads us to the "I will pay more for a better kit" group, who once again represent a microscopic percentage of the consumer base. The guys who rant that they won't buy a '57 Ford until all these things are fixed are just missing out. It is what it is and those issues will never be addressed. And you're turning the hobby into an obsession that only upsets yourself, and takes from the pleasure the majority of kit consumers experience. And that kind of passion is what defines this group of kit consumers.

Bill, may I ask how many new kits you bought in the past year? Since you haven't been building much I suspect it wasn't many, if any. This falls into the same category that Chrysler doesn't give a hoot what I think about their cars because I am not a new car buyer. Since I buy used cars, I don't even register on their survey. And of course we will never agree on the subject.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Tom Geiger

[Austin T]

In all honesty Bill I feel as if you are highly over exaggerating the issue just so you don't have to submit. Why would this bother you,I've seen you mention plenty of times in the past the only kits you purchase are second hand and rebuildables for your projects. And I'm sure that causing so much of a ruckus amongst the community constantly can't be for fun,so what motivates you to do it? Why do you care? I'm not trying to be offensive (If I was this would be way worse)I'm just trying to help myself understand why minor kit accuracy problems annoy someone who can barely be considered a consumer of new kits.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Austin T

[BobbyG]

I've worked "professionally" on aircraft, racing cars, and a variety of other high performance projects my entire life. "Good enough" isn't, and rushing to deadline has its consequences.

I sincerely hope the next guy who works on all of you "good enough" folks' car brakes does a job that in his eyes is just "good enough". See how "good enough" it is as you sail through an intersection and get hammered flat by a semi.

Why are so many of you so quick to give people who GET PAID WELL to do a job, even if it's only making toys, a free pass for turning out second-rate work? "Measure twice, cut tools once" should be the operative phrase here. MEASURING ACCURATELY ISN'T ROCKET SCIENCE.

When your daily job involves creating something tangible with your own mind and hands, and possible loss of human life if you foul up, sometimes on a large and dramatic scale, you get a little different perspective on the meaning of "good enuf".

Rushed presentation, 80% concept intact...

"Good enough" does not apply to NASA building space vehicles or any automobile manufacturer (and we have seen our share of the recalls in last few years) they have no choice to get it right...peoples' lives depend on it. Who's live depends on a model, for God's sake this is a hobby.

It's good to discuss the weak points of a new model which may alter a modeler's decision to buy it, however...it serves no justice when people in this forum spend so much time on a new kit, that's not even available yet, and it's ripped apart before it's in anybody's hands! To go as far as getting the calculators and slide rulers out measuring a pic of a test shot, that nobody has in their hands, against a picture of the 1:1 vehicle misleads people even further. Example: Moebius' 61 Ventura, I've been wanting this car kitted forever like a lot of us do. But this forum ripped it apart and we haven't seen an update from Dave Metzler since. And I don't blame him because this is a small company giving us what we want.

I hope this is taken as constructive criticism and not taken personally or as an attack. I am 62 years old and building models since I was 9, cars of the 50's, 60's and 70's that were in my years of maturing and loving cars, we are now seeing the voids we have had now being kitted...how cool is that! Don't get me wrong, criticism is good and the manufacturers need to hear us, but keep it within reality...its a great hobby and past time that we have loads of good quality stuff to build, but give the model companies a little bit of slack since they are taking risks and spending some coin to satisfy us.

[PeeBee]

YIKES!

[PatRedmond]

[MonoPed]

I've worked "professionally" on aircraft, racing cars, and a variety of other high performance projects my entire life. "Good enough" isn't, and rushing to deadline has its consequences.

I sincerely hope the next guy who works on all of you "good enough" folks' car brakes does a job that in his eyes is just "good enough". See how "good enough" it is as you sail through an intersection and get hammered flat by a semi.

Why are so many of you so quick to give people who GET PAID WELL to do a job, even if it's only making toys, a free pass for turning out second-rate work? "Measure twice, cut tools once" should be the operative phrase here. MEASURING ACCURATELY ISN'T ROCKET SCIENCE.

When your daily job involves creating something tangible with your own mind and hands, and possible loss of human life if you foul up, sometimes on a large and dramatic scale, you get a little different perspective on the meaning of "good enuf".

Rushed presentation, 80% concept intact...

Really? Errors in a model kit are on the same level with an error that caused the Challenger disaster? Seriously? YGTBFKM...

[Ace-Garageguy]

You guys are a hoot. You continually miss the point, even when I spell it out.

Only a moron would think I equated the Challenger disaster with model car faults. But the culture of not paying attention, dodging responsibility, "forgetting", trying to get by with the minimum amount of work and still get a paycheck, passing-the-buck and making excuses is exactly what led to the big Challenger boom, and to the mis-proportioned models we get.

And Tom...I've bought around 40 kits this past year. I bought $35 worth yesterday. How about you? Plus tens of gluebombs, lotsa detail bits, tools, etc. Just because I'm not posting much in WIPs recently doesn't mean I'm not buying, and I'd rather not be forced to do a lot of remedial work on a NEWLY TOOLED kit before starting in building my own vision from it. I have 4 or 5 of the Revell '57 Ford and several more of the Revell '50 Olds. I AM a consumer of these things...probably buying more kits, parts, tools and materials in a year than the great majority of builders here, and I have a right to voice an opinion concerning things I buy. Or do I ??

To BobbyG...you don't use a "slide ruler" as you call it to measure things. It's a mechanical analog computer.

To MonoPed...I'd think with your avatar being a representation of one cover of Atlas Shrugged, that you'd get it. Have you ever actually read the book?

To Austin T, I quote:"Why would this bother you,I've seen you mention plenty of times in the past the only kits you purchase are second hand and rebuildables for your projects." Check your reading skills there buddy. I've said repeatedly I enjoy rebuilding trash into something nice, but NEVER that's ALL I build. I have multiple build threads of NEW kits going on this very board. And as stated in my response to Tom, I bought around 40 NEW kits over the last 12 months. How 'bout you?

YGTBFK ME.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy

[zaina]

People are in a urination match over some plastic...before we even have seen it in person.

[Ace-Garageguy]

People are in a urination match over some plastic...before we even have seen it in person.

Hey bud...I'm not peeing on anybody's Wheeties. I've REPEATEDLY SAID I LIKE REVELL'S '57 FORD. I'll BUY the DAMM WAGON. SEVERAL OF THEM. AND I'LL CORRECT IT IF I HAVE TO.

BUT I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO.

[Atmobil]

I would think with all the hyperbole and stupid exaggeration about "if we ask for perfect kits all the model companies will act like 5-year-old spoiled babies and take their toys and go home", it would be easy to recognize my exaggeration to make a point.

Apparently not. The point is:

A damm job is a job.

A job is where you get money in exchange for doing something CORRECTLY.

.Do it right, or do something where it doesn't matter to ANYONE if you can't.

I was working in a company manufacturing tarpaulins and similar items. Me, being a modelbuilder, is used to doing things to very accurate measurments. I tried to do this in my job aswell but ended up using to much time on projects and consequently lost my job.

So, it could be that the people that are making the modelkits are not slacking of but do try to do a correct job but becuase of the economy have to let things go. In the end you do the job to the quality requirements set by the managment and hope that they don't fire you for spending to much of their profits.

[Atmobil]

I feel that I want to add a little more to my last post. Now, I don't personally know how the modelkitindustry works but I'm guessing it works the same way as many other industries. When the company wants to make a new kit they assemble a team to work on the project. A timeline of how long the project will take is set and a buget is given on a caluclation of how much sales the product will give and the amount of time the development team needs.

The team will do their best to achive the highest product quality they can but if there are errors that are small or that are discovered to late in the process then they will probably have to let it go so that they will not miss the deadline or exeed the developmentbudget.

Sometimes errors may be so gross that they will have to redo a lot of the project, in such a case the management may pull the plug on the project if they think that the costs will exeed possible profits from sales. In the end, I don't think that the people that are developing new kits are doing a bad job because they don't care (I think they do care) and that they are trying to make the best product possible within the cost and timeframes given.

[Austin T]

Hey bud...I'm not peeing on anybody's Wheeties.

Well considering how you've mounted a severe defense against more than a handful people I'd say you may need to re-evaluate your action plan. Just remember Bill most of us are here to relax and kickback after a long day of work and build a model, not to treat our hobby as a serious profession. Take my job for example, I'm a lab technician at an optometrist, I make glasses. We have a very strict guidelines and are only allowed small tolerances because our products make a significant effect on peoples lives. When I build a kit however I honestly don't care if I'm lacking a few scale inches here and there because at the end of my life a few scale inches will not have made a difference, unless I happen to run across a rouge rivet counter in a dark alleyway. I quite enjoyed my build of the '57,In all honesty it's one of my favorite builds to date. Even if it is full of inaccuracies caused by revell or myself.

[StevenGuthmiller]

I feel that I want to add a little more to my last post. Now, I don't personally know how the modelkitindustry works but I'm guessing it works the same way as many other industries. When the company wants to make a new kit they assemble a team to work on the project. A timeline of how long the project will take is set and a buget is given on a caluclation of how much sales the product will give and the amount of time the development team needs.

The team will do their best to achive the highest product quality they can but if there are errors that are small or that are discovered to late in the process then they will probably have to let it go so that they will not miss the deadline or exeed the developmentbudget.

Sometimes errors may be so gross that they will have to redo a lot of the project, in such a case the management may pull the plug on the project if they think that the costs will exeed possible profits from sales. In the end, I don't think that the people that are developing new kits are doing a bad job because they don't care (I think they do care) and that they are trying to make the best product possible within the cost and timeframes given.

Now "THAT" is the most sensible thing I've read in 9 pages of this total waste of a perfectly good thread! But please.....continue to eviscerate each other. Steve

Edited March 12, 2015 by StevenGuthmiller

[Ace-Garageguy]

Well considering how you've mounted a severe defense against more than a handful people...

Yeah, exactly. A defense after I was personally attacked, as usual, after I voiced my opinion that people who GET PAID to make SCALE MODELS really ought to make SCALE MODELS and not loose interpretations of the subject matter.

IF YOU GET IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME, YOU DON'T HAVE TO MAKE EXPENSIVE CORRECTIONS AND MISS DEADLINES. IT'S SIMPLE.

MY entire professional life consists these days of going behind people who got paid well to do a job correctly and didn't. It's then MY job to wipe their asses, listen to their excuses about why THEY couldn't do it, and do it over, MYSELF. Why is it that I can ALWAYS do it, but the turkey before me couldn't? Because they just didn't try as hard as I do, that's why.

I don't build models as a continuation of my daily BS dealing with stupid slackers and re-doing their work, but when a kit doesn't look like the subject TO ME, that's exactly what I have to do...if I want to make a model that comes up to MY OWN standards I set for MYSELF.

I'm tired of being sold second-rate BS and being told it's "good enough" and offered repetitive excuses about why it can't be better.

One more time for the benefit of the slow learners...

IF YOU GET IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME, YOU DON'T HAVE TO MAKE EXPENSIVE CORRECTIONS AND MISS DEADLINES. IT'S SIMPLE.

​And it doesn't take ANY longer to get it right the first time than it takes to get it wrong. It just takes a little commitment and passion.

[Chuck Kourouklis]

Ah, Bill...

As a guy who himself is delighted with Revell's '57 Ford 'cause it's relatively the least funhouse-mirror vintage offering we've seen from them lately, someone who knows exactly where you're coming from, I gotta ask:

As desperately as these guys grab for any misdirection they can to justify their hysterics at kit criticism, are you really at all surprised your Challenger point was so precisely missed?

Don't know how much of this you've observed, Gaute, but just in case you were wondering, you shouldn't buy the revisionist history some of this lot'll throw at you. The talk of manufacturers being "idiots" or "not caring" only started percolating after YEARS of harrassment from people who lack the maturity to handle topical discussions of shortcomings in kits, who somehow take those discussions personally and flail about with fairy-tale demands for "perfect kits" and other such tripe to try and make any sense of this infantile indignation they constantly contrive over stuff they had no role in developing.

Two threads come immediately to mind:

The Kit That Must Not Be Named

The Moebius Ford Pickups

Notice who really starts making the conversations personal - not the critics, but those poor tender souls who just get so TIIIIRED OF IT ALL. Look where the name-calling really starts.

And those are right off the top of my head. OH, and how about this one, where people started soiling their Pampers over a problem with a kit that wasn't even named specifically:

Scale Model Inaccuracies

And I'm just scratching the surface. There's a mountain of archives in this very forum showing this same basic pattern and laying bare who the agitators really are.

[Tom Geiger]

I feel that I want to add a little more to my last post. Now, I don't personally know how the modelkitindustry works but I'm guessing it works the same way as many other industries. When the company wants to make a new kit they assemble a team to work on the project. A timeline of how long the project will take is set and a buget is given on a caluclation of how much sales the product will give and the amount of time the development team needs.

The team will do their best to achive the highest product quality they can but if there are errors that are small or that are discovered to late in the process then they will probably have to let it go so that they will not miss the deadline or exeed the developmentbudget.

Sometimes errors may be so gross that they will have to redo a lot of the project, in such a case the management may pull the plug on the project if they think that the costs will exeed possible profits from sales. In the end, I don't think that the people that are developing new kits are doing a bad job because they don't care (I think they do care) and that they are trying to make the best product possible within the cost and timeframes given.

Amen, Thank you! This is project management just like it would be in any other business. Things the average consumer would never think about. I worked in facility management at Nabisco headquarters many moons ago. Things like the mix of mixed nuts in the Planters can are adjusted every week to what company buyers can buy on the world market and which type of nuts are down in cost that week. Surplus of Brazil nuts? There will be more of them in the cans on that week. If you are in the 1% of people who don't like Brazil nuts, oh well. The company caters to the majority of their market. As an average consumer you will never notice. But figuring that savings across millions of cans of nuts is big dollars. That's how business works.

The model companies are a microscopic bit to what big business of consumer goods are today. In fact they are a small part of what the model car market once was. The "teams" are often one person, such as Dave Metzner dealing with a contractor on the other side of the globe. I had dinner with Dave last year after NNL East and he described these transactions. I identified with this since i have several late night meetings with China and Japan every week in the pharmaceutical company I now consult with on manufacturing reliability issues. I'm dealing with great people I have met in person who are smart and really want to do the right thing. But we have cultural and language issues that we deal with. Never mind that my Chinese counterpart and I both drive Buicks, we are pleased as punch when we get across 90% of our needs. And this is in heavily regulated industry. So I know first hand what the model car industry is up against, having Chinese subcontractors create models of cars they've never seen in person. When you consider the road blocks, the results are actually quite outstanding!

Edited March 12, 2015 by Tom Geiger

[Austin T]

Yeah, exactly. A defense after I was personally attacked, as usual, after I voiced my opinion that people who GET PAID to make SCALE MODELS really ought to make SCALE MODELS and not loose interpretations of the subject matter.

IF YOU GET IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME, YOU DON'T HAVE TO MAKE EXPENSIVE CORRECTIONS AND MISS DEADLINES. IT'S SIMPLE.

MY entire professional life consists these days of going behind people who got paid well to do a job correctly and didn't. It's then MY job to wipe their asses, listen to their excuses about why THEY couldn't do it, and do it over, MYSELF. Why is it that I can ALWAYS do it, but the turkey before me couldn't? Because they just didn't try as hard as I do, that's why.

I don't build models as a continuation of my daily BS dealing with stupid slackers and re-doing their work, but when a kit doesn't look like the subject TO ME, that's exactly what I have to do...if I want to make a model that comes up to MY OWN standards I set for MYSELF.

I'm tired of being sold second-rate BS and being told it's "good enough" and offered repetitive excuses about why it can't be better.

One more time for the benefit of the slow learners...

IF YOU GET IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME, YOU DON'T HAVE TO MAKE EXPENSIVE CORRECTIONS AND MISS DEADLINES. IT'S SIMPLE.

​And it doesn't take ANY longer to get it right the first time than it takes to get it wrong. It just takes a little commitment and passion.

Why should I see your point if you refuse to acknowledge anyone else's? You are too afraid to consider other's ideas because in your mind if you submit then you will be seen as weak, your a class A example (And a raging one at that) of an "Alpha Male" who will do anything to remain on the top of the heap. Fell free to continue vigorously mashing in keys in a fit of rage so that you don't lose any dominance in your little utopia, I honestly can't wait for the day it all sets in that you've wasted hours of your life trying to change peoples minds for them over a model kit.