Walk, then Run

[SuperStockAndy]

Possibly one of the best posts I've read on this forum. Thanks.

[Jantrix]

I, for one, am so happy that this thread did not digress into a war.

I'm glad too. I was a little afraid I'd get a few "Who are you to say how I build" replies, but not so far.

FWIW, I don't think this is limited to "younger" members, and I doubt you intended to segregate younger from older builders, but we all can benefit from mastering the basics, regardless of age or how long each of us has been building.

Yep, I just mentioned the younger members because we seem to have gotten several lately.

Possibly one of the best posts I've read on this forum. Thanks.

I'm real glad to hear that Andy.

[martinfan5]

I have been building models now for close to 20 years or so, but its only the last year, well since I became a member on here, that I have been trying to better myself , and build better looking models. I need to work on getting that clean finish. I can do a lot in this hobby, but have a perfectly clean build is not one of them.

I have learned so much by being on here, and I know there is more to learn, but to at the end of the day, I do this for two reason's, one is because like the rest of us I love cars, and the second is , for fun, and its the second that is most important. The day I stop having fun with this hobby, is the day I will stop .

I see to many members on here that I dont think have fun any more, and they act like its a job, this is a hobby. I dont think I will ever be able to build contest winning builds, and thats ok, thats not what I am setting out to do, but if it happens one day , great. Would I like to , yes I would, but I am not going set out to do that, because then pressure to become perfect sets in, and then will take the fun out of it.

[Dave Ambrose]

My attitude is pretty simple: So long as my builds are on an upward trajectory, I'm happy. They're never perfect, but they can look pretty good.

I have, on occasion, bitten off more than I could chew. On the other hand, if you don't push the envelope some, you don't grow either, and personal growth is important to me. When planning my car builds, I pick a couple of new things to try, and keep it at that. It's a strategy that seems to be working for me, though I haven't finished any cars in a while. (self-employment is not the right choice for those who love free time).

I find that building other models helps me regroup and feel like I'm getting something accomplished. This is mostly because my personal standards for sci-fi space ships and airplanes isn't nearly as stringent as for my model cars. So, I get reenergized ready for another model car build. And that's cool.

My current interest area is paint. I seem to have paint drama with almost every build. Now, I'm to the point where I don't get frustrated by it so much. Just accept it as part of the learning experience and keep moving. Almost anything can be fixed with some sandpaper and patience.

[knarf]

Agree, too many modelers get in over their head and eventually mess up, causing them to just quit.

However, even as a self-proclaimed good modeler I still have a hard time finishing a model, though it's more about getting bored and wanting to work on something else (which I'm sure most of the modeling population can attest to).

here here!

[o-man]

I didn't read all four pages, but I get this thread. PLEASE, whenever I post a build or under glass thread, feel free to offer constructive criticism/suggestions on my models. I know they don't hold a candle to 95% of the ones I've seen on here. I hope over time I can get little trim details down, but right now painting is killing me.

[Jantrix]

Thanks Oscar. One thing you can do is when you post up a model, ask for comments and criticism. Most people won't unless asked.

[phil-east]

I always ask for feedback when i post a build in under glass as I think it is the best way to learn.

I do think having a rookie section for the forum could work quite well, I have done a few bad builds in my first year of building that i deemed unsuitable to post in under glass and if we had a rookie area i would have posted them and maybe learned a lot more from the feedback from people. Its just a thought and i don't know how a lot of people would feel about it but i think a rookie section with beginners tutorials and a place to post lower standard builds would be a great help for a lot of beginners.

It could also give people who are interested in starting to build a less intimidating place to ask simple (to us) questions and get a bit of confidence about taking up the hobby.

[DSHWoodworks]

I welcome feedback as well. I just posted my first "on the workbench" WIP in over 20 years and I know I have a lot to learn. I just want to build clean, mostly box stock models and after I get a few of those under my belt I will try to push my "skills" a bit. Always learning. I always like to hear feedback from any project I am working on, I feel that someone else might see something I didn't see or just see something in a different way which helps you look at your work in a different light. Good constructive feedback is always a good thing.

[LoneWolf15]

Constructive feedback is a good thing , it also leads to bigger and better things ! There are some youngsters on here that have come light years from where they started out several years ago !

[Shelby 427 1965]

I agree with you 100%. If we aren't given a little criticism once in a while, we'll never see need to change, for the better. I was on another forum before this one, and they were great at criticism - they were always nice about it, and if it wasn't for that, I would be nowhere near where I am today. My Da always says, "no matter how good you are (or think you are), there always someone out there better - and from them, we learn." I'd rather get criticisms for my build - if no-one criticises me, you'll never strive to improve. That's what's always motivated me at this - wanting to build something that nobody had anything bad to say about.

[Ramfins59]

I wholeheartedly agree that constructive feedback, or criticism, IS a good thing. We all "usually" learn from our mistakes and sometimes we don't see the mistake ourselves. When someone else can point it out to us, without belittling us, it helps us to not make the same mistake again.

I've had friends and fellow club members point things out to me over the years.... Once I put a carburetor on backwards. Another time I made an aluminum driveshaft but didn't line up the U-Joints properly, and my buddy Tom told me that my U-Joints were "out of phase". I had no clue what he was talking about until he explained it. I of course fixed the mistakes on the models, and I've never made those mistakes again. My wife is especially talented at pointing out the one little flaw on a model that I will miss. I might grumble about her mentioning "that one little flaw" (believe me there are loads of little flaws in my models) but I'll always do my best to try to fix it.

[MAGNUM4342]

Constructive criticism IS a good thing. The problem is, you never know if you are responding to a thread by a total Whiney-the-pooh who is so thin skinned he can't take it. Sure it's meant to help but either it gets worded in an ambiguous way so that the reader doesn't know how to take it, or it's downright rude and crude so everyone leaps to the defense of the builder when no ill intent was really meant. Not everyone is a wordsmith and the ambiguity of the online world makes it difficult to divine intent wether it be cruel or constructive.

[Jantrix]

Quite true Kevin. We have seen both sides of the criticism coin here. With no way to tell the posters, age or mental state, offering criticism is a BLAH_BLAH_BLAH_BLAH shoot unless the poster asks for it.

And lets not forget using PM's for suggestions and stuff as well. It's less likely to go nuclear if the builder isn't criticized publicly.

[Tom Geiger]

I started a post on this thread yesterday but got distracted by dinner and never got back to it. The last several posts covered my concerns that on the Internet you don't know who is on the other end. The person may be a young kid or a disabled person doing the best they can.

When I got back to the hobby in my late 20s, my first attempts looked just like the models I built when I was 14, so I joined a club with the intent of learning how to build better models. The members responded and taught me all the basics. My next model was 100% better! And it was all because nice people took the time to teach me. So I do like to return the favor to newer builders.

As with most of you, I do appreciate comments on my in progress stuff on mistakes I can still fix, as Rich has mentioned. If I saw something, I'd be more inclined to PM than point out the flaw on the board for all to see. I do like to post suggestions, "it would be cool if..." type posts. Sometimes the builder takes the suggestion and I get to see it built that way, or it gets ignored and that's fine too. It's their model. Then again, I know Rich a long time in person, so I'm sure we'd point out an issue with a model of either of ours because we know how the comment would be taken.

I was a bit miffed on my '34 Ford sedan build that on two boards, and two clubs nobody pointed out to me that the kit roof was too square, especially since a half hour's sanding took care of the issue. I learned about it in another post when I asked why AMT hasn't reissued the 33-34 Ford sedans, and someone replied about the roof. At that point I had my body finish done, but being the real modeler, I dumped it into the purple pond, and corrected the roof. Once done, even the new paint scheme came out better so it was a real win. But instead of the "neat build!" posts, I wish someone had mentioned the friggin roof! So if anyone sees an issue with my work, TELL ME!

And on the other side, there are builders on both boards and in my clubs who don't want criticism or suggestions. They are happy with their level of build. I know guys who don't do any body prep or use primer. They quickly spray or brush paint their parts and assemble the model box stock. If the model can't be finished in a week, they've lost interest. And if they're happy, I'm content to leave them be!

[Scale-Master]

I didn't read all four pages, but I get this thread. PLEASE, whenever I post a build or under glass thread, feel free to offer constructive criticism/suggestions on my models. I know they don't hold a candle to 95% of the ones I've seen on here. I hope over time I can get little trim details down, but right now painting is killing me.

I just re-read it from the beginning; I’d suggest you do too, if you have the time. Quite enlightening…

Almost two years ago this thread was started. It is very interesting how many of the points originally made in this thread have continued to be repeated even with so many agreeing that the specific reactionary behavior discussed is not befitting or conducive to the forum.

It looks like most people who have commented in this thread “get it”, yet we see the same “total Whiney-the-pooh characters” (Credit to Mr. White) still permitted to not follow what seems like the constructive mentality espoused by both the majority of the members and the staff. Dare I say, "the rules"? (To the point of causing the forum to be shut down twice since this thread began.)

[Lunajammer]

The person may be a young kid or a disabled person doing the best they can.

There was a time we had a club member who, to my best guess, had Aspergers. Mentally challenged, but mostly self reliant adult and vigorous about building models. They were disasters. But he found people to whom he could show his models and who would be friends with him. Any constructive advice we gave him would be lost but he loved being part of something. I suspect such a person might suffer on this forum. Not because so many are rude but because we're not always careful to consider who is posting the pics.

[wrecker388]

I couldn't agree more. I have always been able to laugh at my stuff, call myself an idiot, and etc. I can go back and look at my builds and see things that I should have done differently. A fine example of this would be my 50 Ford F-1 that I built shortly after I discovered the hobby. I was fairly proud of myself when I first built it, as I tried many new techniques. But , as I go back I can see many mistakes. The best one would be the front leaf springs. When I first built the truck I was working with blurry instructions and couldn't see how they mounted. I ended up mounting them Sideways.I always wondered why I could never get the front axle to glue on or why the ride height was so low in the front. This was only an issue because I had extremely limited knowledge of real cars at the time, well, I actually didn't even know what a leaf spring was! I caught the mistake a little while ago and shown it to me dad and we both had a good laugh about it. It didn't discourage me because I knew I was never perfect, and know that I never will be.

[Casey]

This was only an issue because I had extremely limited knowledge of real cars at the time

I've noticed that on some builds, especially where detail painting is done on two neighboring parts. While many of us have an interest in real vehicles and some have spent time working on real vehicles, becoming familiar with how things work, where parts are located, how they function, and what their relationship is to other parts, some people do not have that same knowledge and experience to call upon when building a scale model. Smaller details, such as how brake lines are routed from the brake master cylinder to each brake cylinder/caliper, are something people like to add for a little extra detail, but it's simply not possible to run a hard brake line from a frame to a brass junction block bolted to the top of a rearend housing with some allowance for movement. On a real car, a flexible rubber line spans the distance, but if the builder has never stuck her/his head up under a vehicle and looked at the braking system, s/he would probably not have any idea how to properly replicate such a detail...and this goes back to Rob's "Walk, Then Run" mentality.

AMT, Revell, Tamiya, et al have produced some really nice kits over the last twenty years, and if you follow the basic steps of prep and construction, you'll end up with a really nice model without needing to add spark plug wires, carb linkage, and carpet flocking. Once you've removed or filled every ejector pin mark, removed every mold seam (including the seam on the top of the radiator), and attached all clear parts without leaving any sign of what you used to attach them, move on to more challenging details. You'll already have the basics mastered, and you'll be happier with the end results.

[zenrat]

It's all very well saying people can ask for criticism if they want it (and i'm adding it into my sig) but sometimes the people who need to be told are the ones who won't listen.

[Casey]

It's all very well saying people can ask for criticism if they want it (and i'm adding it into my sig) but sometimes the people who need to be told are the ones who won't listen.

Very true, but I think we're all at least a little bit guilty of not being 100% receptive to criticism, and much of the time our reaction depends upon how it is delivered, and by whom.

"It takes a great man to give sound advice tactfully, but a greater to accept it graciously." - Logan P. Smith

[wrecker388]

I've noticed that on some builds, especially where detail painting is done on two neighboring parts. While many of us have an interest in real vehicles and some have spent time working on real vehicles, becoming familiar with how things work, where parts are located, how they function, and what their relationship is to other parts, some people do not have that same knowledge and experience to call upon when building a scale model. Smaller details, such as how brake lines are routed from the brake master cylinder to each brake cylinder/caliper, are something people like to add for a little extra detail, but it's simply not possible to run a hard brake line from a frame to a brass junction block bolted to the top of a rearend housing with some allowance for movement. On a real car, a flexible rubber line spans the distance, but if the builder has never stuck her/his head up under a vehicle and looked at the braking system, s/he would probably not have any idea how to properly replicate such a detail...and this goes back to Rob's "Walk, Then Run" mentality.

AMT, Revell, Tamiya, et al have produced some really nice kits over the last twenty years, and if you follow the basic steps of prep and construction, you'll end up with a really nice model without needing to add spark plug wires, carb linkage, and carpet flocking. Once you've removed or filled every ejector pin mark, removed every mold seam (including the seam on the top of the radiator), and attached all clear parts without leaving any sign of what you used to attach them, move on to more challenging details. You'll already have the basics mastered, and you'll be happier with the end results.

I've gotten better since then. I can thank my Thunderbird for that!

[mrmike]

I read many of the posts on this thread and I can understand exactly how Rob feels about this. Like many others, I am my own worst critic and sometimes I take criticism the wrong way. I work hard on a build only to find something wrong after I posted a build in Under Glass. The close ups reveal flaws and mistakes that I missed or created and forgot to correct. Criticism is fine only when it is presented in a fashion that doesn't insult or anger. Postings like "You paint job leaves lots to be desired" could be presented better as "You appear to need a little more prep work on your painting. I would like to suggest..." Don't trash the guy because his body work is not the best, but offer some advice. Word it so you don't insult or hurt the builder's feelings. We all have feelings, some of us are not as thick skinned like others.

I too, have gone back to the basics again. Building box stock using the basic assembly techniques I have learned all those years ago have helped me tremendously. Sometimes I try something new, but I find that going back to the building basics helps. Even at the age of 60, I am still learning...and practicing...and learning...and learning...

[zenrat]

You never stop learning Mike. It's just some people don't realise they're being taught while others choose to ignore the lessons.

[Mach1revo]

Good topic and some really great points made here. I think the main problem is most of us dont know who is on the other side of the keyboard. We dont know their skill set, age, desire, or physical abilities. One thing I would suggest would be for the forum to add a section for Criticism. On a aircraft forum they have this. Under Glass would become a "showroom". If you post a build in the "CRITIQUE CORNER" you are EXPECTING criticism good or bad, no complaints or whining. That would eliminate most of the trouble.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Mach1revo