Walk, then Run

[jbwelda]

a couple of things:

am I the first to mention that in many forums, including the on the workbench one, up at the top, you are basically invited to keep your mouth shut unless you have something good to say. "good" as in praise, not "good" as in "good for you" such as building advice would be.

then there is this business with moving posts all over the place by the moderators. I have pretty much quit posting "in process" threads because I never know where they will end up and mostly they end up where I would have put them IF I WANTED THEM THERE. but I didn't want them there...that's why I posted them where I did. but come back an hour later and they are shifted off to some ghetto where I at least never bother to go. not very encouraging.

so, in effect, as per usual, it is the very site and their ever-shape-shifting "rules" that prevent the very advice that would help new builders. and its a shame that is the case.

jb

[Harry P.]

so, in effect, as per usual, it is the very site and their ever-shape-shifting "rules" that prevent the very advice that would help new builders. and its a shame that is the case.

The rules don't change. If you post something where it doesn't belong, it'll get moved to where it does belong. If you post a topic where it belongs, it won't be moved.

That's about as simple as it can be. I don't see how anyone can have a problem understanding that concept.

[Harry P.]

then there is this business with moving posts all over the place by the moderators. I have pretty much quit posting "in process" threads because I never know where they will end up and mostly they end up where I would have put them IF I WANTED THEM THERE. but I didn't want them there...that's why I posted them where I did. but come back an hour later and they are shifted off to some ghetto where I at least never bother to go. not very encouraging.

There are no "ghetto" areas of the forum. It's divided into different areas of interest and/or subject matter.

You personally may not have any interest in a given area of the forum, and that's fine... for you. But just because you have no interest in that area doesn't mean that all the rest of us have to think the way you do. What you consider a "ghetto" area may very well be other members' favorite area.

As hard as this may be for you to believe, we all don't think the same exact way that you do.

[Dale W. Verts]

Well... for me, as an "old" beginner, thanks to everyone that posts their help and wisdom here. I give up- I'll be an ARTIST later (maybe). I'll reckon I'll just build these little things for FUN for a while.

Thanks again.

Dale

[Belugawrx]

I, personally ,have had NOTHING but constructive criticisms and comments here, when posting

And I have gained so ,much!

Love this site,....although,... sometimes,... it does,......

Sounds like a bunch of hens

Cheers

[Mizozuman2]

Being fairly new to the model building scene (Compared to a lot of the people here), I have to agree as well.

I currently build Box Stock, and I don't think I've got half of the normal things I do on every model down. I've got 14 kits right now, and I've got 2 of them that I'm working on. I only do that because it keeps my mind wandering about, rather than focused on one thing. that seems to help me, and keeps me interested with the hobby. I've built 10-12 kits in what's close to the past 2 years.

I don't feel as though I've even started walking yet. I'm more of at a crawl. I just did my first trunk lid cut-out and it took a lot of patience to do. I haven't touched the scratch making of the trunk walls, because I feel like I'd mess it up. so I set it back, and haven't messed with it for a while. But I'll come back to it one day. I don't like abandoning kits. I feel like it's a waste.

[Mizozuman2]

Also true, and often unfortunate. You can only make a comment that might help them do better next time. There is a current thread with a very proud modeler who woefully colored outside the lines on the black for the car's grille, and an astute member mentioned that the grille could be better, and brush-painted trim was pretty sketchy. Several attaboys and the modeler didn't get it, and I didn't feel like explaining more. I don't like telling someone their build has problems, but perhaps I should have. I chose to stay quiet. If it's a work in progress, they have a chance to improve it.

Should've quoted this in my previous post... Oops!

I feel as though 99.99% of people don't understand what constructive criticism is. It's meant to be constructive. I "learned" not to fear constructive criticism when I was in 5th grade. I still remember that day in band class...

[Jantrix]

Should've quoted this in my previous post... Oops!

I feel as though 99.99% of people don't understand what constructive criticism is. It's meant to be constructive. I "learned" not to fear constructive criticism when I was in 5th grade. I still remember that day in band class...

Some people just can't take it though. I've seen it in everyday life as well as here. At work recently, a 50 year old professional was spoken to about this or that, and it turned into a fiasco. Instead of "Okay, I'll take care of it, or I'll stop doing it that way,", he had a meltdown. It's never anything but a personal attack, and there is always some excuse, or they are being singled out.

No matter what it's the risk we will HAVE to take here or anywhere. You can't be so afraid of offending that you stop even trying to help. As long as you offer the criticism in a polite supportive manner, even if they do blow a gasket, no one can fault you for trying. This very thing happened to me recently in a thread from a newer member.

[Mizozuman2]

Some people just can't take it though. I've seen it in everyday life as well as here. At work recently, a 50 year old professional was spoken to about this or that, and it turned into a fiasco. Instead of "Okay, I'll take care of it, or I'll stop doing it that way,", he had a meltdown. It's never anything but a personal attack, and there is always some excuse, or they are being singled out.

No matter what it's the risk we will HAVE to take here or anywhere. You can't be so afraid of offending that you stop even trying to help. As long as you offer the criticism in a polite supportive manner, even if they do blow a gasket, no one can fault you for trying. This very thing happened to me recently in a thread from a newer member.

Yeah, I understand that. I know plenty of people that way. I'm just glad that I'm not that type of person, and am able to take the criticism. one of the things I dislike the most, is when someone can dish out Constructive Criticism, but doesn't know how to take it. It's aggravating.

[Jantrix]

Agreed. I see that most frequently when someone calls themselves a "master" at anything. Their work is above reproach.

[om617]

It will always be hard for some to take constructive criticism because they cant hear your voice or see your facial

expression as you say it. This would be the downside of internet. This said some people just love to be offended.

I agree with everything Bruce Coy said ,but have not noticed the hens yet lol

[bobthehobbyguy]

Some people just can't take it though. I've seen it in everyday life as well as here. At work recently, a 50 year old professional was spoken to about this or that, and it turned into a fiasco. Instead of "Okay, I'll take care of it, or I'll stop doing it that way,", he had a meltdown. It's never anything but a personal attack, and there is always some excuse, or they are being singled out.

No matter what it's the risk we will HAVE to take here or anywhere. You can't be so afraid of offending that you stop even trying to help. As long as you offer the criticism in a polite supportive manner, even if they do blow a gasket, no one can fault you for trying. This very thing happened to me recently in a thread from a newer member.

However you can only provide constructive criticism if the builder asks for feedback. Read the top part of the header that statee the forum policy. Hopefully builders will be open and want feedback so others can provide feedback to help the builder improve

[Tom Geiger]

Scott, for some, it IS a hobby. And that's great. More power to ya.

But for others, and I daresay a signifcant portion of the populous here......it's art.

And the goal of any artist......is to be someday thought a master. And we have several here, though they might deny the claim.

Everyone has their own goals for the hobby. It goes from guys who are just occupying time up to the expert artists that continue to push the cutting edge upward.

I once had a guy working for me who was away from home and lived in a hotel during the week. He would buy a model car and a tube of glue to occupy a boring evening or two in the hotel. He didn't do any parts prep, didn't sand anything and used no paint. He merely twisted the parts off the trees and assembled it all with his one tube of glue. A model car wasn't anything more than a 3D puzzle for this fellow, something to amuse himself when he'd otherwise be bored.

And there are guys everywhere in between. Every club has a guy who shows up at every meeting with one to several new builds he did that month. From a distance they look fine, and can make for a decent shelf model. I once bought a built model from such a builder, who would occasionally sell off what he built to make room to build more. While the vehicle was attractive enough for me to buy it, upon close examination the shortcuts he took were apparent. He didn't prep parts and the body had one, maybe two coats of Testors enamel right over bare plastic. A lot of the parts appeared to have been brush painted on their trees, since his 'twist off' points were bare. His chassis are all assembled and then just sprayed flat black. The vehicle was Testors red, probably because he already owned the can. And he was happy with these results because he continued his monthly production in the same fashion. If you gave him a model, even if he wasn't into the subject, he'd build it. I doubt he saw his work as art.

There is nothing wrong with the way the above two builders choose to approach the hobby. Each has found a level of participation that he is comfortable with. And it's probably how 80% or better of models are built.

I consider my own building as "art". It is a way I express myself, and get vehicles out of my head and into 3D in front of me. I rejoice when I've accomplished this goal, when I'm able to share these with my peers and friends. My goal was to become a good enough builder to accomplish this. I do continue to improve my skills and try new techniques, but I am not a cutting edge builder. Simply put, I choose not to, it wouldn't be fun for me.

I choose not to learn the intricacies of an airbrush, scratch building frames from brass or using a lathe. Those activities just don't appeal to me. On the other hand, I've expanded my skill set in painting, using different adhesives, decal application and plastic scratch building greatly in the last year. I care enough to buy 5 different paints until I find the 'right' shade. I do wire my engines and add details, both aftermarket and scratch built. I do want to build better models, but I have chosen a level I'm comfortable with. I will give my very best efforts within that level range. I won't accept sloppy, and have redone things several times until I got the result I wanted.

And I am comfortable in my choice NOT to be one of the hobby's big dogs! I no longer build for contests, and feel that my level of build might not even be competitive today. That doesn't stop me from following the cutting edge and admiring the work of those who choose to stretch the envelope. Nor do I look down on guys who build at levels below my own. I will always be available to help those who want to learn new techniques or do something better. And I'm content to leave those who don't want any input alone.

Where do you fall?

Edited March 28, 2014 by Tom Geiger

[Ace-Garageguy]

It's also possible to offer helping suggestions without it immediately coming across as criticism, constructive or otherwise.

Praise something that IS well done, or that really stands out on a model, like "I really like what you did with such and such", or "the way you handled so and so looks great", and then mention, kindly, that some little thing that was possibly overlooked could make the model "even better".

Children often respond to gentle coaxing to improve their skills, and it's not usually productive to single out a flaw and bash on it (as seems to happen here occasionally).

Another sometimes effective way to offer constructive criticism, if you really want to help and aren't just being a dork, is to PM the member and approach the matter privately, without the entire forum watching. I've learned a few things about current drag-racing, for instance, when I made a technical error and someone with real knowledge was kind enough the take the time to point out my mistake...privately.

But don't be surprised if someone you're honestly trying to help to improve their building takes offense at the most well-intentioned, most kindly stated negative commentary. As stated above, some folks just can't handle the truth.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[Mizozuman2]

It's also possible to offer helping suggestions without it immediately coming across as criticism, constructive or otherwise.

Praise something that IS well done, or that really stands out on a model, like "I really like what you did with such and such", or "the way you handled so and so looks great", and then mention, kindly, that some little thing that was possibly overlooked could make the model "even better".

Children often respond to gentle coaxing to improve their skills, and it's not usually productive to single out a flaw and bash on it (as seems to happen here occasionally).

Another sometimes effective way to offer constructive criticism, if you really want to help and aren't just being a dork, is to PM the member and approach the matter privately, without the entire forum watching. I've learned a few things about current drag-racing, for instance, when I made a technical error and someone with real knowledge was kind enough the take the time to point out my mistake...privately.

But don't be surprised if someone you're honestly trying to help to improve their building takes offense at the most well-intentioned, most kindly stated negative commentary. As stated above, some folks just can't handle the truth.

I'm sorry, but your last 7 words made me think of a good movie...

[Ace-Garageguy]

There's one more point I'd like to reinforce.

There's so much valuable information available, for free, on this forum, that anyone whose definition of "fun" with modeling includes improving their skills can find something relevant to their work.

The forum also allows us to post large (hopefully in-focus) images of our work, and flaws that may have gone un-noticed on the bench really jump out.

I tend to put up a photo of a Chevelle model I did a few years back (when rattle-can questions come up) as an example of what can be achieved with rattle-cans. I'm entirely satisfied with the paint, but after seeing Marcos Cruz's panel-line tutorial, I almost cringe when I look at the photos of my Chevelle model now. It could have been SO much better with that little improvement. I also noticed, on the forum shots, that the roll-cage doesn't fit inside the cabin as well as I thought I'd been building it. Oops.

The point I'm making is that if we want to improve, and "master" any particular skill, we need to be completely, brutally and objectively critical of our OWN work, and this forum is a perfect place to learn and grow as modelers.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[Harry P.]

The point I'm making is that if we want to improve, and "master" any particular skill, we need to be completely, brutally and objectively critical of our OWN work, and this forum is a perfect place to learn and grow as modelers.

That's one way of looking at it (and I agree fully, BTW)...

But there are a large number of people who see this forum not as a place to learn and evolve... they see it as their "show and tell" outlet. They post photos of their work in order to have their egos stroked. They are not looking for (or expecting) criticisms or honest comments... they are looking strictly for pats on the back.

Is that a bad thing? Well, in the sense that a forum doesn't work that way, yes. Or at least, an unrealistic expectation.

If a person posts a model that is really outstanding, and it gets nothing but positive comments, that's great! Nobody says that there must be negative comments or criticism given. But we shouldn't operate under the assumption that any and all criticism shouldn't be made (if valid). That runs counter to how a public forum operates.

How many times have we all seen an obviously poorly built model get a bunch of "looks great" comments? Isn't that pointless and silly? To reinforce a guy who posts a lousy model with false praise isn't doing that person any favors... in fact, just the opposite. Undeserved praise is worse than deserved criticism. Undeserved praise just encourages the person to keep on cranking out bad models. How is he ever going to grow as a modeler if we all tell him what he's doing is fantastic–when it's obviously not?

In my opinion, it's not right to expect all forum members to keep their mouths shut in order to keep the relatively small number of thin-skinned members happy. It makes far more sense to me to allow the forum to operate as it should, and if you're the type of person that doesn't want any comments on your work, then don't post your work!

[Jantrix]

However you can only provide constructive criticism if the builder asks for feedback. Read the top part of the header that states the forum policy.

Which is why I always take it to PM.

In my opinion, it's not right to expect all forum members to keep their mouths shut in order to keep the relatively small number of thin-skinned members happy. It makes far more sense to me to allow the forum to operate as it should, and if you're the type of person that doesn't want any comments on your work, then don't post your work!

I could not agree more.

[Tom Geiger]

I'm entirely satisfied with the paint, but after seeing Marcos Cruz's panel-line tutorial, I almost cringe when I look at the photos of the my Chevelle model now. It could have been SO much better with that little improvement. I also noticed, on the forum shots, that the roll-cage doesn't fit inside the cabin as well as I thought I'd been building it. Oops.

Agreed! And that's when you realize that you've grown! I have models that I built way back when that I thought were absolutely perfect at the time. I thought that I had a show winner! Looking at them now through my aged and learned eyes, I see why I didn't place at contests with that model. And that's why you keep your old builds around! Every time I get too big for my britches, I go back and look at them!

[om617]

I would prefer if anyone want to give me constructive criticism to post it in my WIP threads over getting PM.

This way others can take notice. I also enjoy suggestions and ideas,i find them inspiring even if i dont follow them.

[Greg Cullinan]

Well... for me, as an "old" beginner, thanks to everyone that posts their help and wisdom here. I give up- I'll be an ARTIST later (maybe). I'll reckon I'll just build these little things for FUN for a while.

Thanks again.

Dale

I only browsed through thread,I didn't read word for word.

This is about the only thing that makes sense to me.

[Speedfreak]

Harry, Bill, Rob, and Tom are all right.

[Gary Smith]

I realize that I'm going to catch it for this but this has been percolating in my brain a while. I've got some spare time tonight and I'm going to try to get this off my chest. I'm going to have to word this carefully, forgive me if I miss the mark.

We seem to have a lot of new builders (new to the hobby) on MCM forum lately and this is a great thing. Like me they come here to learn the hows, the whys and wherefores. To see what others are building, and how they done it. They see the chop tops, brass frames, custom this and scratch built that and the infinite creative possibilities that exist within our hobby. But I think they really don't get the best advice of all when it comes to building.

Walk, then run. I see a lot of builds started but few finished. Now I'm no stranger to unfinished builds, but it's mostly due to modeling ADD. With a lot of new builders they don't get finished because they try to take on too much for their skill level. I discovered scale auto magazines in my early 20's and they opened up a world to me. Trying to replicate some of those wonderful models, I turned a lot of perfectly good kits into hamburger. Mores the pity, many are no longer available today. It took me a while to learn what I'm telling you today.

Walk, then run. Learn to build cleanly first. Learn how to paint. Learn what glues to use and when/where they work best. A cleanly built box stock model with good paint will beat a super scratched, chopped, channeled rod with mold lines and bad bodywork/paint every time.

I'm posting this because we see this every day on this forum, but no one says anything to the builders because we're always afraid of how the builder will receive the criticism. We've had too many threads in the past turn into a mess of hurt feelings and the builder storms off the forum to another where everyone will pat him/her on the back and tell them how great their work is, when it'€s not. Many new builders get discouraged because they aren'€t getting ataboys. "I've gotten 476,000 views and no comments! What's up with that?" It's because no one wants to be the bad guy and say, "Hey go back and learn the basics fella."

I'm posting this because I wish someone had been there to tell me this. My dad turned me on to models, but he wasn't much in the tough love department, he just smiled and said "Nice job son."It gave me the warm and fuzzy feeling I was after, but it didn't make me a better modeler.

So here I am. I'll be the bad guy. Put down the saw. Step away from the body filler. Grab out a kit and built it with no alterations, as clean and carefully as humanly possible. Grab out all those model bodies you've trashed and practice painting. All these things I'm still learning now, after modeling off and on for 25 years.

That's all. If this message reaches one new builder and makes him/her think, it'll have been time well spent. I'll step off the soap box now.

That is the problem i have. Really nice paint has always been very hard for me. I think that is maybe why I like to build dirty.

[Jantrix]

That is the problem i have. Really nice paint has always been very hard for me. I think that is maybe why I like to build dirty.

I agree. I think it's my biggest issue as builder. Weathered/dirty vehicles can be a bit of a crutch, if you are doing it rather than throw a gloss paint job and risk the pitfalls that go with it. I know I have.

[chunkypeanutbutter]

I pulled an old AMT Ford Shoebox out a while ago with the intent to do a custom with it. Decided to just rust it last Sunday, and I worked the whole week through, slowly making it better. I slowed down on the dent process, and hit the hot spots with a Matchbox car, something I picked up here. It worked nice! Many coats of matte clear, rust chalk, rust paint, and dirt later, it's not perfect quality but better than my previous ones.