Show/Contest Judges - Touch Or No Touch?

[DrGlueblob]

"No Gerfingerpokin und Mittengrabbin".. I have seen broken hoods, snapped-off photoetch, and big fingerprints on my stuff at contests waaay too many times. I rarely.. very rarely enter shows anymore. Especially anything associated with IPMS. An eight-buck trophy isn't worth the hassle.

I do like to let folks look at my models. People's Choice is where you are safe from grabby judging, but there's always those in the crowd that have to poke a finger here n' there, as well as Mr.Ballcap, too. To combat that, I ask that I get mine displayed as far away from the table edge as practicable.

[ZTony8]

I've judged at several contests in the Metro Detroit area for a few years now and we routinely pick up the entries(except curbside,of course).If you enter a judged contest in any class except curbside you should expect that your entry will be handled(carefully) to be properly judged.It's part of the process.We don't intentionally harm the models while judging.Sometimes parts fall off or break,which makes us judges uncomfortable-we don't want to be blamed for damage to a model.The spectators are more of a hazard to the entries.Aside from signs indicating that spectators shoudn't touch the models about the only thing that can be done is to put up a barrier a safe distance away from the contest tables.If that distance is too great then the models can't be seen very well and the spectators are disappointed.Bottom line-If you don't want your model handled,don't enter a judged contest.That's what's good about an NNL for people who get vapors if their entries are touched.

Edited March 10, 2014 by ZTony8

[om617]

Cant people put up an note "Attention judges" where it say the chassis etc is not glued?

I am assuming the builder are not allowed when the model is judged? Or he/she could

just be there and handle it for the judge. If the judge break off mirrors,antennas or such

i would say he/she should not be touching models at all.

[Dragline]

c'mon man, einstein didnt invent evolution for nothing.

There is so much wrong with this sentence I'm not sure where to begin......

Bob

[philo426]

I have never had any of those issues!Careful assembly has its benefits!

[johnbuzzed]

When I set up a long-term-project model for a contest, I make sure that it can be seen from as many angles as possible- usually on a platform made of clear acrylic, elevated by four 1" standoffs, above a mirror. Lately I have made use of a Scale Motorsports display stand. Not inexpensive, but worth every penny. I put my entry as close to the front of the table as possible, which is not always easy, and I'll have data sheets with the model- what it's based on, any added details, scratchbuilt or fabricated stuff, etc. If I don't want the judges to touch a particular model, I will indicate that on the registration form that accompanies the model. That usually works, but not on Staten Island. In those few instances where I have a hinged, moveable part, I'll be sure to change it's position as the contest progresses. Sometimes I'll bring a model that was never intended to be a contest model for various reasons; usually, I won't mind too much if a judge picks up one of them, especially if it's not displayed in an advantageous manner. I'm not saying that I like my models to be picked up but I understand the need to do so.

When I do judge, unless the builder has specified differently, I will pick up the model- especially if it is not displayed so that it can be seen. There are all kinds of things that can be hidden in plain sight on that chassis such as missing or loose components, missing paint (i.e., bare plastic), mold marks, tool marks and seams that don't belong there. On more than one occasion, I wanted to pick up a model for a better view- the visible stuff looked good enough to want to see the rest- only to find the body not secured to the chassis. Mind you, these were not funny cars or anything else with a lift-off body. If you're gonna use a stand, keep it basic and simple and make sure that as thew much of the model can be seen as possible. You don't want to detract from the model- the least amount of glitz and bling, the better. Too much might cause one to wonder if you're trying to camouflage something. A turntable is a good idea- as long as you can see the chassis- because the judges would be able to see just about the whole model. Get to the contest early so that your entry can be close to the front of the table- there's nothing worse (well, I exaggerate...) than having to crane and stretch to see what's wayyyyy in the back, especially when it's flat on the table with a "no touch" sign next to it.

[Pete J.]

Several years ago I had a lot of fun at a show with this subject. I had completed an Tamiya Tiger tank. You might know the type. It is a full sound an motion R/C model. The sound is recorded from a real working Tiger and includes the sound of the inertia starter cranking up and it has a cannon that flashes and recoils with a resounding boom.

Since it was designed to run it was pretty rugged. I had done some weathering and detailing but it was still a "daily driver". I put it on the table in large scale 'cause the thing is huge and intentionally put it within 6" of the edge.

I suppose you can see where I was going with this. I stood back away from the table with the control and waited. Well I didn't have to wait for long, sure enough a 8 or 9 year old comes up and touches the model. I flipped the switch and you should have see the look of horror when it started winding up and the turret started tracking him. When it fire, the kid ran out of the room as fast as he could. I would bet he never touched another model for the rest of his life. I had a lot more fun the rest of the day with people who insist on getting too close and touching things they shouldn't. I only regret I didn't have a movie camera to record it. I could have got a million hits on YouTube.

[LoneWolf15]

I have never had any of those issues!Careful assembly has its benefits!

Careful assembly has nothing to do with it . A fellow " modeler " decided to do some repair work on his model on the show table . In doing so , super glue dripped off the applicator and landed on several models , mine included .

When informed of this , I found that the rear window on my Impala had four glue marks on it . I purchased an Impala kit from a vendor , removed the body from my build , popped out the rear glass , and replaced it with the new part . I then placed the body back on the build , reglued the front and rear bumpers and it was as good as new ! I've had parts in the interior knocked loose by careless use of a mini - Mag Lite also .

I think I'm just going to have to take a page out of Forest's mama's book on this thread and let it ride . Thankfully , the major portion of the shows have a no touch policy already in place , so in reality , the point is moot .....

Tony B , feeling " bad " about damaging a model during judging doesn't undo the damage , now does it ? Especially , if the individual had that " Do not touch ! " box checked on the sheet . Sooner , rather than later , a model is going to be damaged at your show , and an attack of the " Vapors " is going to be the very least of your club's problems when it does .

[Aaronw]

How are you going to pick up a truck and trailer?

If a truck and trailer doesn't have to be lifted to be judged then why would a car?

There is usually little of interest on the underside of a car model. For those exceptions it should be up to the modeler to find a way to show that off.

[Jeff Johnston]

Pick my model up. I don't care. I can get fingerprints off. I can glue on a missing part. Heck I can build another one. I appreciate the others view on no handling but personally I do not care. Its not like O build them to fall apart in your hands LOL

[ZTony8]

For at least the contest at the Detroit Autorama next year we're considering banning display bases.There's some debate as to how much the display should be part of the entered model(excepting dioramas,of course).The current feeling is that the base isn't part of the model and should be ignored for judging purposes.

Picking up a truck and trailer?If they can be separated for judging,they will be separated.

Underside detail and craftmanship can be the difference between models being awarded or not if the other parts of the models are equally well done.An excellent example is a '39 Chevy sedan delivery entered in the Street Rod class in last weekend's Autorama model contest here in Detroit.This entry had a beautiful fogged blue paint job(and except for an unfortunate scratch in one front fender it would have been awarded Best Paint) but there was no extra detailing done with painting or parts to the model.It was basically box stock.It didn't even place in class judging.

[Scale-Master]

An excellent example is a '39 Chevy sedan delivery entered in the Street Rod class in last weekend's Autorama model contest here in Detroit.This entry had a beautiful fogged blue paint job(and except for an unfortunate scratch in one front fender it would have been awarded Best Paint) but there was no extra detailing done with painting or parts to the model.It was basically box stock.It didn't even place in class judging.

I'm confused with what you're saying in your example. A model with just a nice paint job, and with a flaw at that, that had no detailing didn't place?

Sounds like that is fair if something that did have better craftsmanship won.

What am I missing?

[Scale-Master]

I have seen many many models damaged by judges, magazine photographers, and ignorant spectators. I have had my models damaged by all three types of people.
While the show staff should be able to ward off spectators picking up what they think are toys, it can happen quickly.

But I have seen some photographers routinely put themselves above the “do not touch my model” signs. I recall one GSL when our own photographer-editor Gregg accidently dropped a guy’s model when he assumed it was attached to the base; he still had the base in his hand when it landed… hard.
I saw a white metal F1 model destroyed in the same fashion at and IPMS Convention. The builder was given a higher place award than it deserved to compensate for the destruction. (Not sure how that is fair to anyone.)

I have had major damage done to my models by judges at major shows. Some were honest and I think truly sorry because they took responsibility and personally apologized. Sadly that is rare in my experience.
But it did not diminish the damage and I can recall three situations where the damage was so bad it was not fully repairable.

While putting out a note saying how to pick up a model seems like a good idea, it hasn’t work for me.
(How often do judges even read the “How I built this” notes?)
Even when I had made a note to expressly not pick my soft aluminum bodied model by the sides.
It had do not touch signs. It also had instructions how to pick it up, just in case it absolutely had to be moved and I wasn't around, (pick it up by the roll bar and under the nose).
Later I found a judge holding it exactly as I wrote not to do, by its sides crushing the body over the frame, and now it has permanent unrepairable damage.

It has nothing to do with the quality of the construction; it has everything to do with the ignorance of people handling models they don’t know how to handle.

I can’t count how many of my models had the BMF messed up on the window trim/drip rails from judges and photographers picking them up by the sides of the roof.

There is no one right way to pick up a model, and unless you built it, you may be very wrong in assuming the best approach.

[sjordan2]

If you're going to display a model, just put it on a Rubbermaid lazy susan with a mirror underneath. No model should ever be picked up.

[philo426]

I always thought that if a model had to be handled,,the judges should find the owner and have him handle it for examination.That way there is minimal chance of damage and the judges would never damage a model.Problem solved!

[jbwelda]

well Mark I don't know how you reacted when you saw the judge holding your model and squishing its body, or how he reacted when you reacted however you might have, but I don't know if I could contain myself and I am a pretty level person.

i really think this very issue is why NNL style shows are much more friendly than these serious contest scenes. too much testosterone going around there sometimes when the going gets serious.

jb

[Jantrix]

If you're going to display a model, just put it on a Rubbermaid lazy susan with a mirror underneath. No model should ever be picked up.

Yep. Nuff said.

[Guest]

No touch for me. I don't touch or handle other people's models and I expect the same. I would rather miss out on a $20 trophy that I'll throw away in few years than have one of my models damaged or destroyed. I got really upset one year at a show when I learned that the editor of that other magazine or one of the staff of the show had picked up and carried two of my models across the room to photograph them during the closed judging. Apparently it didn't dawn on them that if I had wanted those two models photographed, I would have taken them myself. Since then, I remove the photo slips before the judging and add a note for them not to be handled for any reason.

[ZTony8]

My point is about underside and other detailing.The '39 Chevy had none(and had no extra detail in the engine compartment either) whereas the models that took first,second and third had extra detail underneath and in the engine compartment.That more than compensated for only the lovely finish on the '39 Chevy.

A judging guide would be most helpful in evaluating a model in a contest.I realize that most modelers can't/won't make one but it would go a long way in possibly alleviating a builder's nervousness about having the entry picked up and handled.If there is no prepared guide then give as much information as possible on the entry form about modifications and build methods.

If anyone has ever seen one of Steve Perry's entries at a GSL or one of our contests here in Detroit his judging guides are the "gold standard".They're ring bound and fully illustrated with photos and several pages long describing in depth how and why he built what he built.I've kidded him about them being so professionally done,telling him he should enter one of his guides in the Miscellaneous class at one of our contests.

A final thought-if you enter a judged contest and don't want your model picked up or moved for photography put it in a "Display Only-do not judge" category or mark it as such on the entry form.

P.S.- Roger,I think you're missing the point about having your model photographed by one of the magazines.They think it's good enough to warrant wider notice by the modeling community so they want to visually record it.They're not going to ask you for any photos you might have of your model.

Edited March 12, 2014 by ZTony8

[Scale-Master]

My point is about underside and other detailing.The '39 Chevy had none(and had no extra detail in the engine compartment either) whereas the models that took first,second and third had extra detail underneath and in the engine compartment.

That makes perfect sense to me. But it is not what I was taking away from your first post regarding where that Chevy placed, (or didn't place...). It should take more than just a shiny finish to be competitive, especially one with a flaw.

A final thought-if you enter a judged contest and don't want your model picked up or moved for photography put it in a "Display Only-do not judge" category or mark it as such on the entry form.

Some entrants would rather risk a lower "score" than risk damage to their model at the hands of another.

But at the same time, if you display your model properly the judges can usually see all around it without need to handle it.

If it is marked "Do not touch", that direction should be respected and followed by all.

So why should an entrant be defacto disqualified from competition and relegated to a "Display Only-do not judge category" for not wanting his model handled? (I don't get that mentality.)

Most shows covered by the magazines now put cards by the models indicating they would like to photograph them. It is up to the builder to bring them to the booth or give permission to the photographer to handle the model.

[Ramcharger]

I have yet to see a model that was an award winner on the top and a glue bomb on the bottom. Very rarely have I encountered this as the deciding factor and I've judged lots of contests, IPMS and otherwise. Most guys that did any work on the underside are more than happy to have a mirror under it to make sure you can see their hard work. Guys that can't remove a seam line on the underside can't do it anywhere else either. If your painting sucks, it sucks everywhere, and if your build quality is poor the underside isn't the only place it shows up. So next time I'm at a show and I see a judge fondling my model I'll ask him where his wife or daughter is so I can fondle her, that's the philosophy of the 1:1 car guys.

[LoneWolf15]

Mark ,

The mentality that eludes you ? The " display table only " is a form of punishment . You don't want your models handled ? Fine ! Put them on that table over there ..... Simple as that ! The fact that several of those models relegated to said table may very well be the best at the show ? It doesn't matter , because you refused to allow the judges to touch your work !

Strange as it may sound , I always viewed this insistence of touching the models as a sense of entitlement . It's our show , feel privileged to be here , that we allowed you to enter our show . Oh by the way ? We will be touching your models , whether you like it or not , regardless of the fact that the do not touch block has been checked ! Why you ask ? Because it's our show !

The truth of the matter ? It should be the exact opposite ! A club should be grateful and gracious to the attendees , more than a few drove many miles just to attend the show . Without the attendees , you don't have a show , period !

Strikes me odd that the Detroit club now wants to remove the bases for the next show , in doing so , it throws my solution right out the window . No mirrored base ? Looks like we have to pick that model up for sure now !

As for the '39 .... Seems that it was put in the wrong class , sounds like a box stock build to me . Regardless of the lack of detail , any model in any class would be eligible for a Best Paint award . Seemed odd to me that an individual that laid down such a " lovely " paint job would allow a scratch in the fender to go unnoticed , or addressed . Paint me paranoid , but I have to wonder how it got there in the first place !

I often wonder if the aforementioned club and another in New York ever took into consideration just how many well known modelers stay away from their shows because of their insistence of "hands on judging " . I do believe that they would be shocked at the numbers , let alone the absence of the works of art on their show tables that those modelers produce .

Edited March 12, 2014 by LoneWolf15

[Scale-Master]

I'm in agreement with you Donn.

I personally know of more than just a couple of well respected and very talented builders who have left the "show circuit" due to just what you point out in your last paragraph.

It's interesting, some of the same guys that used to be (incorrectly) accused of being 'trophy hounds" (for the simple fact of being good builders) have stopped participating in many shows because they put the protection of their work above the awards.

[Jantrix]

Strikes me odd that the Detroit club now wants to remove the bases for the next show

I have known some contests that say "no" to bases due to space considerations. If your six 3"x8" models are all on 12" diameter mirrors, that takes up a lot of real estate. And I have that and a lot worse, done at contests. One guy build a game show-esque display base that took up four square feet and only held four models.

Every show I go to here in sunny Florida, is a "judge on what you can see without touching the model" contest. That leaves it up to the builder to properly display his model to show as much of the model as possible, if he wants it judged accurately. However no contests I know give less points for not showing more. They are judged on the whole of what is displayed.

Frankly sometimes, showing more can be a detriment. I've seen models knocked from 1st place due to ejector pin marks visible on the underside thanks to the trusty mirrored base.

[Guest]

P.S.- Roger,I think you're missing the point about having your model photographed by one of the magazines.They think it's good enough to warrant wider notice by the modeling community so they want to visually record it.They're not going to ask you for any photos you might have of your model.

I guess you missed the part where I stated that IF I had wanted him to take photos of my models, I would have taken them to the photo booth myself. I didn't. But, he somehow felt it was their right to pick my models up,carry them and photograph them anyway. What if they had dropped one of them and busted it all to pieces? I guess it would have just been my tough luck, huh?