There are some odd double standards in our society about model building...

[clovis]

I coached and guided my daughter on her recent 4-H build. I was able to steer her and teach her about every step of the build, including assembly, gluing, painting a faux rust finish, the salt method, and final paint. She won a reserve grand champion for her efforts.

But, I'll tell ya, there are some weird double standards in our society about model building. Let me explain:

The 4-H program in our county has been very active, at least as long as I can remember. When it comes to entering projects in the fair, competition in many categories can reach epic levels, and might make some Olympic sports look like child's play.

The more I talk with people, especially those outside the 4-H world, they are adamant that each 4-H kid should not be helped one iota with building a model, or sewing a quilt.

So, it is okay that a parent enrolls their kid into baseball, or any sport, pays $600 and up in fees, buys two or three very expensive baseball bats at the cost of $300 each, buys $300 worth of cleats, a mitt and a helmet, hires a weight lifting coach for M/W/F, hires a batting coach for T/T/S, a pitching coach for Sunday and Monday, drives them across three or more states entering tournaments, and then spends thousands of dollars sending them to clinics and camps throughout the summer, not to mention rental time at batting cages, and the time they spend sitting in the dugout with their kid "to keep them cool so they won't lose focus on the game or blow their top"...everything is cool, "because their kid is doing it for himself without any aid, whatsoever."

But if I buy my kid a model car kit for Christmas, with the promise that I will "help" her build it...I am dead wrong.

My definition of 'helping' is really about teaching, guiding, and coaching, without ever really touching the model. If I had a dollar for every time that I said something like "You gotta keep the can moving. If you don't keep it moving...or if you have it too close, you are going to glob the paint, and it will cause runs", I would probably be rich by now.

Don't get me wrong. There were a few things that I did to the model that she didn't do, like engineering around a severe wheel-to-chassis problem we had with the vintage kit. Once I had that figured out, I instructed her where to cut with the Dremel, and how to glue it up to the axles. I did glue up the truck bed because I didn't think she could get it square enough, and I didn't want her gluing her fingers together with super glue.

As well, the judges in our county typically ask very pointed questions about the builds, which weeds out the "daddy-built" models very quickly. Many of those entries get relegated to a back shelf, never to be looked at again by a judge.

It is just weird, if you ask me. In our society, if you spend $10,000 on music lessons, or the same for keeping your kid active in a sport, it is acceptable, but if you sit down at the kitchen table and have real conversations with your kid while they build a difficult vintage model, and encourage their love of model building through coaching, teaching and guiding, both you and the kid are cheating.

[uncle potts]

When my kids were in 4-H, some of the projects they did, received almost no input from us as parents at all. There were others that needed some instruction and coaching to help the kids improve their skills, and to help them do a better job. That was ok if the child actually did the work. Sometimes a teacher has to actually show the child how to do something for them to get it. The problem that I see, is that, most people see model building as something children do, that doesn't need any coaching from an adult. They don't appreciate the skills that need to be developed, over time, to produce a top notch model. It's just a toy they put together. Those attitudes won't go away with some people.

[Tom Geiger]

I get what you are saying Jeff.. we've spoke about this before. My daughter sprayed her own models and I taught her techniques, and expected her to then follow them on her model. In some cases, I'd assemble one wheel for example and have her do the other three. She felt a sense of achievement when we finished a model.

I made sure of that because my father was the opposite. As a kid I'd just sit there and watch him do things. He wanted perfection in what we were doing, so he did it himself. Even as I got older and we started to work on 1:1 cars together, he had me cleaning parts in gasoline in an old hub cap. I never got to do the real work stuff. So I lost interest. I swore I wasn't going to do that with my kids and probably went overboard in the other direction as a result.

There were times my daughters felt bad when they got beat by the daddy-do projects, but we talked about it and we agreed that we were there to do our best, and that they had clear consciences when they accepted an award for their work.

Another arena of 'daddy-do' is grammer school science fairs. Some of the projects there looked like AT&T degreed engineers built them... because they did!

[Harry P.]

So, it is okay that a parent enrolls their kid into baseball, or any sport, pays $600 and up in fees, buys two or three very expensive baseball bats at the cost of $300 each, buys $300 worth of cleats, a mitt and a helmet, hires a weight lifting coach for M/W/F, hires a batting coach for T/T/S, a pitching coach for Sunday and Monday, drives them across three or more states entering tournaments, and then spends thousands of dollars sending them to clinics and camps throughout the summer, not to mention rental time at batting cages, and the time they spend sitting in the dugout with their kid "to keep them cool so they won't lose focus on the game or blow their top"...everything is cool, "because their kid is doing it for himself without any aid, whatsoever."

Wow. Some people take Little League waaaaaaaaaaaay too seriously!

Hiring a weight lifting coach? And a batting coach? And a pitching coach? And thousands of dollars in camps and clinics? Seriously????

My son was in LL. He went to practices with the other kids after school, he played in the games on the weekend. He used the team bats. He had fun. End of story. I can't even imagine hiring coaches...

[Tom Geiger]

Wow. Some people take Little League waaaaaaaaaaaay too seriously!

My daughters played softball in the town league. The bleachers were out past the outfield because the parents didn't know how to act. Even at that, there was an open assault case involving parent vs coach.

[Harry P.]

It is just weird, if you ask me. In our society, if you spend $10,000 on music lessons, or the same for keeping your kid active in a sport, it is acceptable, but if you sit down at the kitchen table and have real conversations with your kid while they build a difficult vintage model, and encourage their love of model building through coaching, teaching and guiding, both you and the kid are cheating.

You're mixing apples and oranges here. Paying for your kid's music lessons isn't the same as playing the piano for her at her recital. You pay for the lessons because the kid obviously can't... but it's the kid doing the learning and the playing... the parent isn't sitting there at the keyboard with her, "helping" her with the notes she can't reach.

But if a parent "helps" a kid build a model, well... that can get touchy, especially in a contest setting where the judges have no real way of knowing just how much of the model is the kid's work, and how much mom or dad "helped."

My daughters played softball in the town league. The bleachers were out past the outfield because the parents didn't know how to act. Even at that, there was an open assault case involving parent vs coach.

[clovis]

Wow. Some people take Little League waaaaaaaaaaaay too seriously!

Hiring a weight lifting coach? And a batting coach? And a pitching coach? And thousands of dollars in camps and clinics? Seriously????

My son was in LL. He went to practices with the other kids after school, he played in the games on the weekend. He used the team bats. He had fun. End of story. I can't even imagine hiring coaches...

It seems to be the new thing...hire some coaches to make your kid be a better player.

I'm not sure about LL, but it is true for the girl's softball league in our area. Those parents are spending serious money to teach their kid to play better ball. A few years ago, we thought it might be good for our daughter to play some ball. It would have cost $450 just to sign up. Hiring batting, pitching, and fielding coaches were not asked of the parents, they were EXPECTED.

After hearing all of that, I was done, but I really, really, really drew the line when they mailed us the standard form letter going out to all parents, expecting us to NEVER miss a game, always get a hotel room, even for games less than 50 miles away, to be at ALL practices, etc.

These were 2nd and 3rd grade kids, mind you.

What ever happened to the $10 registration fee and someone's dad volunteering to be the coach, where we all gathered to throw a ball around the field once or twice a week?

[Harry P.]

What ever happened to the $10 registration fee and someone's dad volunteering to be the coach, where we all gathered to throw a ball around the field once or twice a week?

That's exactly how it worked when my son was in Little League. The rest of the stuff you described was unheard of.

[clovis]

You're mixing apples and oranges here. Paying for your kid's music lessons isn't the same as playing the piano for her at her recital. You pay for the lessons because the kid obviously can't... but it's the kid doing the learning and the playing... the parent isn't sitting there at the keyboard with her, "helping" her with the notes she can't reach.

But if a parent "helps" a kid build a model, well... that can get touchy, especially in a contest setting where the judges have no real way of knowing just how much of the model is the kid's work, and how much mom or dad "helped."

I don't know, Harry.

I see your point. But at the same time, if you drop big bucks on coaching of any type, aren't you doing nothing but enabling the kid to reach their potential, just like coaching a build?

A parent can't play a few keys while the kid is on stage, but can the parent really say "my kid did it all on his own", after they spent $10,000 on music lessons????

I've never been to a model show or contest, so I don't know about the builds, rules, etc. But like I mentioned before, the "daddy-built" models get weeded out VERY quickly at our county fair.

Judges ask questions like

1. "How did you attach the windshield without getting any glue on it?"

2. "What was the hardest part about this kit?"

3. "I see that you weathered the body. Explain how you did that."

4. "What brand of paint did you use? Did you like how it covered?"

5. "What was the one thing about this kit that you could have improved upon?"

if you answer "I dunno" too many times, your project is likely to get awarded a white ribbon, which is embarrassingly bad.

ETA: So a parent can't get on stage and play a few keys, but I can't stand in front of a judge and answer questions about the build, either.

Edited September 3, 2014 by clovis

[keyser]

Here in TX, 4H kids raise a lot of stock to show. Most my patients worked hard, had families in the stock biz, but still needed help with feed programs, heavy lifting, vet stuff. However, some families "leased" stock to show, rather than buying big stock. Hard to catch, but it happens. Nuts. Fortunately all the kids I know that show did great, and show season stories were awesome. Responsibility and maturity beyond most adults.

Model building and quilting (rabidly popular here) for shows seems to assume basic skills first, and no help on the actual show entry. I think a history of introducing tools and techniques for any 4H'er should be adequate if someone pitches a fit. As far as sports are concerned, it's sadly BS.

Rodeo and stock shows far better at developing adult coping skills than usual sports. Amazing how hundreds of # of animal makes little league nonsense disappear. Not a lot of self-entitled kids muck stalls.

[Thatswhatshesaid]

If anyone here follows baseball then you know about the Tommy John surgery epidemic. It's starts at little league with kids playing year round ball for multiple teams and blowing out their arms by the time the reach high school. A lot of the problem is the parents pushing their kid because every parent seems to think their kid is the next superstar.

As far as the double standard it's not really a fair comparison. No one hires a coach to teach their kid how to build models and a parent can't be on the field during a sporting event. But there is nothing wrong with guiding a young builder IMO. As long as the child is doing most of/all the work. I think we've all seen the 'my dad built my working volcano science fair project' but I'm a D student'

That's just cheating.

[clovis]

I get what you are saying Jeff.. we've spoke about this before. My daughter sprayed her own models and I taught her techniques, and expected her to then follow them on her model. In some cases, I'd assemble one wheel for example and have her do the other three. She felt a sense of achievement when we finished a model.

I made sure of that because my father was the opposite. As a kid I'd just sit there and watch him do things. He wanted perfection in what we were doing, so he did it himself. Even as I got older and we started to work on 1:1 cars together, he had me cleaning parts in gasoline in an old hub cap. I never got to do the real work stuff. So I lost interest. I swore I wasn't going to do that with my kids and probably went overboard in the other direction as a result.

There were times my daughters felt bad when they got beat by the daddy-do projects, but we talked about it and we agreed that we were there to do our best, and that they had clear consciences when they accepted an award for their work.

Another arena of 'daddy-do' is grammer school science fairs. Some of the projects there looked like AT&T degreed engineers built them... because they did!

Our fathers are very similar in that regard, Tom.

[Harry P.]

I don't know, Harry.

I see your point. But at the same time, if you drop big bucks on coaching of any type, aren't you doing nothing but enabling the kid to reach their potential, just like coaching a build?

Paying for a kid's music lessons or hiring a coach for your kid so he becomes a better ball player is one thing, but the actual performance is done by the kid alone... either on that piano bench or out in left field. No matter how much help or money mom and dad have put into Junior or Missy's activity, when it comes to actually performing, Junior and Missy have to perform without mom or dad's help, live, in full view of the public. Mom can't sit on the piano bench at Missy's recital, and dad can't help Junior turn a double play at short.

But model building is done in private, behind closed doors... then the finished product is put up for the judges. But the judges have no idea how much of the work was done by the kid or how much mom or dad "helped,"... or if the kid even had anything to do with building the model at all. "Coaching" your kid as he or she builds a model is one thing... actively taking part in the process is another. And how are the judges to know?

So it's not a case of double standards. Like I said, you're comparing things that aren't directly comparable.

[clovis]

Here in TX, 4H kids raise a lot of stock to show. Most my patients worked hard, had families in the stock biz, but still needed help with feed programs, heavy lifting, vet stuff. However, some families "leased" stock to show, rather than buying big stock. Hard to catch, but it happens. Nuts. Fortunately all the kids I know that show did great, and show season stories were awesome. Responsibility and maturity beyond most adults.

Model building and quilting (rabidly popular here) for shows seems to assume basic skills first, and no help on the actual show entry. I think a history of introducing tools and techniques for any 4H'er should be adequate if someone pitches a fit. As far as sports are concerned, it's sadly BS.

Rodeo and stock shows far better at developing adult coping skills than usual sports. Amazing how hundreds of # of animal makes little league nonsense disappear. Not a lot of self-entitled kids muck stalls.

Very interesting.

Show animals are insane here, so I can't imagine what it is like in Texas.

Two years ago, the Grand Champ steer at our fair supposedly was bought out of KS for $20,000. There are some big money players in that world, and a $20,000 steer proves that.

The biggest thrill though, is when a local kid, from a working family, that might not have two nickels to rub together, drags in a crossbred something-or-another, enters it, and wins the whole thing in their category, even against the big money entries. I have two separate cousins who did that in two different years, and it was fun to see them win big.

[1930fordpickup]

Spending time with your kid is not and should never be looked down on. Some people call taking your kid to a game while they sit in the stands spending time with them. In all reality it is just a social event for the parents most of the time.

[Tom Geiger]

That's exactly how it worked when my son was in Little League. The rest of the stuff you described was unheard of.

My daughters were involved in the 1990s (they are now 30 and 26) and the league was run by a few folks with big egos. They demanded that all the parents took on duties and took a $250 check from you in liu of you working. When you completed your assigned duties, they'd give you the uncashed check. Otherwise, they cashed it. I asked why it was so much, they said it was originally $100 and parents just let them cash it instead of working.

When you went to work these crazies made it miserable. Where it should have been a fun thing with other folks from the town, these idiots yelled and screamed at people, and told us all that they were working way harder on the league thing than the rest of us. Really wrong.

[HomerS]

That's exactly how it worked when my son was in Little League. The rest of the stuff you described was unheard of.

My oldest son was in the 3rd or 4th grade and I was an assistant coach in what was a little league for basketball. They played an away game at a city where they took it much more serious than we did. They were running the score up on us and my kids were not having fun......until I pulled our team over and told them "you get five fouls....go use four!" Those fast breaks, run-n-gun and fancy lay ups stopped pretty quickly when bodies started flying.

No one got hurt and now eight years later my wife still gives me grief over it. My sons friends still laugh about it.

Edited September 3, 2014 by HomerS

[1930fordpickup]

In Michigan and Ohio they tatoo numbers in the animals ears to slow down the cheating. They put the cattle and pigs in air conditioned barns so they eat properly and have longer hair. LOL It is nuts if you ask me.

[Tom Geiger]

So if I move to Texas I should be able to make a living as a model building coach??

[Harry P.]

No fair changing avatars in mid-topic...

[Tom Geiger]

No fair changing avatars in mid-topic...

I actually changed it right after making that post!

[keyser]

Show animals are insane here, so I can't imagine what it is like in Texas.

Two years ago, the Grand Champ steer at our fair supposedly was bought out of KS for $20,000. There are some big money players in that world, and a $20,000 steer proves that.

The biggest thrill though, is when a local kid, from a working family, that might not have two nickels to rub together, drags in a crossbred something-or-another, enters it, and wins the whole thing in their category, even against the big money entries. I have two separate cousins who did that in two different years, and it was fun to see them win big.

Yep, some are banging 40-50k here. Don't know anyone that's stepped in that deep, but I know a lot that have kicked some hi-priced stock. The whole leasing thing is huge misappropriation of the principle. Good news is there's enough sound minded cattlemen with very deep pockets and great work ethics to bury any idiot that gets caught.

It truly is awesome to see kids take a pitiful glue factory refugee and make a Grand Champion or Reserve Grand Champion. Blows me away the money they make off birds. Everyone starts with eggs, and goes from there. That's a real race.

Down here, you need AC in barns so the stock doesn't melt. We've got tatt's and papers and all. Kids lose weight working so hard, and they love it.

Then there's rodeo. 10-15yo kids flipping a good barrel racer around pretty much makes baseball and football a snooze.

I did love the basketball "use 4/5 of your fouls" story. Priceless.

PS Tom-great concept. I never finish anything, so I dunno. Good news if ya move though, you only need pool heat about 3 mos a year tops. Gotta add water though to keep it from boiling.

Edited September 3, 2014 by keyser

[clovis]

Wow...$50K for a show animal?

I was dizzy when I heard $25K and $30K.

[keyser]

25-30k pretty offensive. 10k pushing it actually. Expect that's where "leasing" comes in. More bang for your buck. A co-op show animal. Probably same idiots that think little Sparky going to play pro ball and it starts by winning little league.

Glad to hear showing popular up there. Really good times for kids and families, lotta work, not cheap, but lessons and grins worth it.

[DrGlueblob]

-A little different story here. Years ago the hands-down most FUN model contest to go to was held in the little town of St. Johns Arizona. It was put on by the 4H Club and was run on a Peoples Choice format. The kids had a blast, and everybody from across the state came to compete in the adult classes too.

"The Best Little Model Contest In Arizona" was primarily for the local kids, and not in the slightest cutthroat kind of pressure. I'm sure the kids got plenty of help and advice from the local builders.. And nobody cared. Adult or child, it was the most laid-back affair, and celebrated the joy of model building.

The kids grew up, and the local adults retired.. So went the way of the contest.. But if there ever is a 4H group in some small town around here that would want to, a lot of us would love to support a thing like that again.