sjordan2 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) So we need a new racing series that adheres to the standards of old-time stock car racing on the beach? Everything else in the world evolves, even in the ancient, slow-to-change and revered world of golf equipment, which has been around since before the 16th Century. But let the games begin, with a sanctioning body that can make everything work on a somewhat level playing field. Edited June 24, 2014 by sjordan2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slusher Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 I think NASCAR would be a lot more interesting if they had a basic set of rules everyone had to abide by (safety rules, for example)... but otherwise. let the racers be racers. Let them try to squeeze out a few more HP or cut lap times by a second, in any way they could, while of course still staying within the rules. More like the spirit of NASCAR as it was back in the '50s. Just my opinion, of course. Like I said earlier, I am by no means a NASCAR fan... I find three hours worth of identical cars going in a circle to be incredibly boring. But if the cars really had some personality, really were different from one another, and maybe the races were shorter (maybe an hour on TV?), I'd be a whole more tempted to watch it. Nascar has lost so many fans over the years with all the rule changes and always leveling the playing field with the cars.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Myers Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 So if you watch it, say half the time, are you a fan? And what's it matter if your a fan or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Myers Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 So we need a new racing series that adheres to the standards of old-time stock car racing on the beach? Everything else in the world evolves, even in the ancient, slow-to-change and revered world of golf equipment, which has been around since before the 16th Century. But let the games begin, with a sanctioning body that can make everything work on a somewhat level playing field. Yeah, show room stock, just take the windows out, weld in some roll bars, take off the hub caps an go racing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Barrow Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Nascar has lost so many fans over the years with all the rule changes and always leveling the playing field with the cars.. The irony is that they reached the height of their popularity while doing the exact same thing! They've always done it! Seriously, who wants to tune into a race when they know what car will win? Is Mercedes' domination of Formula 1 this season good or bad for the sport? The problem with NASCAR is today's drivers are boring, buttoned down, corporate sponsor-friendly types and anytime NASCAR tries to inject a little personality into the sport it comes off like a scripted WWF storyline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Myers Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 " Funny that you chose a picture from the small-block standard wheelbase purpose-built fabricated racecar TV-era. And the car is more than half cropped out... It's a star, alright! " you're funny brett. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Seriously, who wants to tune into a race when they know what car will win? If NASCAR was open to real competition, how would you know who would win the race? If a particular team kept winning, and the teams were allowed to "do their thing" (within the safety rules), wouldn't that spur real innovation and real competition among the other teams to try and get back in the winner's circle? Isn't that really what racing is all about? Encouraging innovation? Driving technology? When everyone is forced to drive the same car, there is none of that, because it's not allowed. "Beating" the other guy who's driving the same exact car you're driving? Yawn... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Barrow Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 " Funny that you chose a picture from the small-block standard wheelbase purpose-built fabricated racecar TV-era. And the car is more than half cropped out... It's a star, alright! " you're funny brett. If there ever was a Nascar star car, it's Petty's 64 Plymouth. Much better choice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Barrow Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) If NASCAR was open to real competition, how would you know who would win the race? If a particular team kept winning, and the teams were allowed to "do their thing" (within the safety rules), wouldn't that spur real innovation and real competition among the other teams to try and get back in the winner's circle? Isn't that really what racing is all about? Encouraging innovation? Driving technology? When everyone is forced to drive the same car, there is none of that, because it's not allowed. "Beating" the other guy who's driving the same exact car you're driving? Yawn... I'll admit it, I don't get NASCAR, but that's their formula and it seems to have worked out pretty well for them. Nothing says innovation like a push rod V-8 that up until a couple years ago still had a carburetor. Also remember NASCAR doesn't exist for the drivers' sake, but rather for the fans' sake. I'm sure every single driver on that grid wishes he could have a superior machine that could lap the field 14 times over, but that wouldn't be a very good show, would it? I feel like more innovation is done when given a tight set of rules to operate within and you have to get the most out of that legally. See the innovation that went into Super Stocks (later Pro Stock) and Junior Stocks compared to Top Fuel Dragsters in the 1960's. In Top Fuel all the teams would just switch to whatever the hot setup was - a Don Long chassis with a Keith Black Hemi or whatever (they were the ones doing all the innovating) ... then Garlits comes along with the rear engine and everybody switches to that. Take the paint off and you can hardly tell them apart. By 1970 Pro Stock's Bill "Grumpy" Jenkins was the 2nd highest-paid sportsman in America (behind Wilt Chamberlain). So who were the fans going to see, the all-out Top Fuelers, or the Stockers? If it were all about unlimited all-out speed and performance, we'd be flocking in droves to see land-speed cars trying to break 1000MPH on the salt flats. But we aren't. I'll ask it again, is Mercedes' current domination in Formula 1 a good thing for the sport, or a bad thing? Edited June 24, 2014 by Brett Barrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 I'll ask it again, is Mercedes' current domination in Formula 1 a good thing for the sport, or a bad thing? If it spurs the others to step up their game, a good thing. But F1 and NASCAR is apples and oranges, they really aren't directly comparable. NASCAR used to be about cars from any manufacturer who cared to participate competing head-to-head with cars from the other manufacturers. Manufacturers competing head to head with their products. May the best brand (and best racing know-how) win. Today it's been sanitized and homogenized to the point where the current NASCAR has absolutely nothing in common with NASCAR as it was. The whole concept of "stock car" racing–brand against brand–has been lost. Some may call that "progress." And I won't argue... it's all in how you personally define "progress," I guess, and it's not my place to tell anyone who enjoys what passes as NASCAR today, that they're wrong. But the original spirit and intent and whole point of NASCAR has been lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale W. Verts Posted June 24, 2014 Author Share Posted June 24, 2014 In the 70's NASCAR was all about innovation. Cheating included... I think it was when the Yahoo topic turned to EXCACT measurement on SUSPENSION that I got riled. C'mon, what you have is cookie-cutter cars here, right? A few VERY talented drivers I imagine (again, I don't follow the sport any more). A politically-sound front-page worthy news item with a nice figure... But the cars all look alike. I'm only fifty years-old, but I remember when professional race drivers had to fight it out on dirt too (LOVE 60's and 70's USAC drivers). Improvisation was king. Make something too good, and yep, the governing bodies stepped in to try to even things out. But at least you got to TRY. Now I imagine a new idea has to go before a BOD. And the cars all look the same. I have no horse in this race, or dawg in the hunt. Just an observation. Sorry, Harry, if this topics' been beat to death. But wanne see something? LISTEN to a 1974 NASCAR stock car sometime. Don't care whether it's a Ford, Chevy, Hemi, AMC, whatever. Listen to them slobberin' all over themselves when they come into the pits. Listen to them screamin' down a straightaway. You could TELL the difference. Yep. Then listen to the same thing in today's cars and tell me the difference. They even SOUND politically-correct. Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Barrow Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 If it spurs the others to step up their game, a good thing. But F1 and NASCAR is apples and oranges, they really aren't directly comparable. NASCAR used to be about cars from any manufacturer who cared to participate competing head-to-head with cars from the other manufacturers. Manufacturers competing head to head with their products. May the best brand (and best racing know-how) win. Today it's been sanitized and homogenized to the point where the current NASCAR has absolutely nothing in common with NASCAR as it was. The whole concept of "stock car" racing–brand against brand–has been lost. Some may call that "progress." And I won't argue... it's all in how you personally define "progress," I guess, and it's not my place to tell anyone who enjoys what passes as NASCAR today, that they're wrong. But the original spirit and intent and whole point of NASCAR has been lost. The first NASCAR race broadcast live flag-to-flag was the 1979 Daytona 500. Everybody remembers that Cale Yarborough and Donnie Allison got together on the last lap and Richard Petty beat Darrell Waltrip and AJ Foyt back to the line and the Allisons and Yarborough got into a fist fight. I can close my eyes and see it. I can remember the sponsors on the cars. I can't for the life of me remember what make of car any of them were driving, I had to look it up. Oldsmobiles. All 5 of them, the only 5 cars on the lead lap at the time of the crash. Olds had the superior car that day, but does anybody say "Hey remember 1979 when those 5 Olds lapped the field at Daytona?". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brad4321 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 The whole idea of "parity" is what I don't get. It's almost like they are actually trying too hard to "level the playing field." It's as if they made a new rule in baseball that everyone had to have a batting average between .250-.270 or else you couldn't play. Or every pitcher had to have an ERA within a certain range or else he couldn't play. I don't agree with at all. There isn't parity. There is a tight set of rules. Too tight for my taste? Yes. But there is plenty of room for the best teams with the smartest engineers and crew chiefs, and best drivers, etc etc to dominate and win. To your baseball analogy, it would be like if the batters had rules governing the weight and length and make of bat. And thats exactly what they have. The best hitters hit, and the lesser hitters strike out. There are no rules in Nascar mandating how successful you can be. If you follow Nascar, you'll see there isn't much parity. The same teams finish up front and the same ol' teams finish in the rear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brad4321 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Nascar has lost so many fans over the years with all the rule changes and always leveling the playing field with the cars.. The problem for me is the new points system. One thing Nascar had on the other sports was that every event was a huge piece of the puzzle. No long regular season followed by an exciting post season. Every single race for nine months mattered and all of them the same. Now, all these races during this part of the season are completely meaningless, and I don't mind as much missing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Myers Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 The first NASCAR race broadcast live flag-to-flag was the 1979 Daytona 500. Everybody remembers that Cale Yarborough and Donnie Allison got together on the last lap and Richard Petty beat Darrell Waltrip and AJ Foyt back to the line and the Allisons and Yarborough got into a fist fight. I can close my eyes and see it. I can remember the sponsors on the cars. I can't for the life of me remember what make of car any of them were driving, I had to look it up. Oldsmobiles. All 5 of them, the only 5 cars on the lead lap at the time of the crash. Olds had the superior car that day, but does anybody say "Hey remember 1979 when those 5 Olds lapped the field at Daytona?". Really ? At 36 years old now you were , what, one, two, in 1979 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Barrow Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Yeah, but I must have seen the replay on ESPN Classic a hundred times. Plus my Granddad used to remind me about it every year when the 500 came on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 To your baseball analogy, it would be like if the batters had rules governing the weight and length and make of bat. And thats exactly what they have. Not so. Bats vary greatly–lengths, weights, brands. There is no MLB rule that says all hitters must use the same identical bat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brad4321 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Not so. Bats vary greatly–lengths, weights, brands. There is no MLB rule that says all hitters must use the same identical bat. Not even close. I know that. My point was there are rules about the bat. You can't go up there with a titanium 2oz bat simply because you thought of it and built one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thatswhatshesaid Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 NASCAR is THE sport to watch if you love watching guys go around in circles trying to save fuel. Its like watching the morning commute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Barrow Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Not so. Bats vary greatly–lengths, weights, brands. There is no MLB rule that says all hitters must use the same identical bat. And there's no rule that says NASCAR drivers have to set their cars up the exact same way, same shocks, same springs, same tire pressure, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 And there's no rule that says NASCAR drivers have to set their cars up the exact same way, same shocks, same springs, same tire pressure, etc... But they all have to drive the same car! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 The first NASCAR race broadcast live flag-to-flag was the 1979 Daytona 500. I can close my eyes and see it. I can remember the sponsors on the cars... You weren't even two years old at that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale W. Verts Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 I used to love watchin' some of those finishes. Cars bangin' into each other. Pearson & Petty. Fistfights. Fistfights the next DAY when fans went at it. Man, those were good times. Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
935k3 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) One of the only series ever run that was close to run what you brung was the FIA Group 7, also known as the CAN-AM series of the 60's into the early seventies. It spawned 510 cu. in. Chevies and the all conquering Porsche Flat 12 Turbo. i was fortunate to see them run at the Glen in 1969. Edited June 25, 2014 by 935k3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Barrow Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 But they all have to drive the same car! And all baseball players have to use a bat of a single basic design. The particulars are left up to the individual. They can't go up there with a cricket bat or a tennis racket! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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