Tamiya 1/24 Aston Martin DBS

[MrObsessive]

 

What's more, I still don't think Tamiya always gets the engine right.  Let's take the new 300SL kit.  In the real car, there's a heat-shield type part that runs directly beneath the exhaust headers.  Without having a 1/1 in my driveway but having studied photography extensively, this appears to me to be an entirely separate part - but on Tamiya's model kit, it's molded together with the exhaust headers.   Given the highly prominent/visible position of this assembly in the SL engine compartment (It's the first thing you see when you open the hood),  they should have been molded as two separate parts.  When I saw that in the kit, it alone was enough for me to put the kit box on the "maybe I'll build it someday" pile rather than the "desk-clearer" kit I had hoped for and expected.  

 

I realize many of you ((probably most of you) will probably disagree with me on this, but that's my view.  In the meantime Bob maybe you can convince the Tamiya team to do another Aston kit with a proper, fully detailed, separate engine.  Or maybe a '62-'64 Berlinetta Lusso.  Yeah, that's it, do the Lusso with a proper kit and engine, and I'll permanently cease and desist on this.

Until then.... Cheers (smile).....TIM 

Ok Tim, it took a bit, but I see what you're talking about in regards to the 300 SL's engine. You're referring to this.....

If I ever get around to building mine, I'd separate that shield to give it a more pleasing to the eye separation. Not sure why Tamiya did it this way, but yeah they molded everything together looking at the kit I have.

Now I can dream, but if they're gonna give us a Lusso, I'd certainly LOVE to see this hit the shelves!

Even with just the Lusso, I can turn it into the 330 LMB. It would take some work of course, but it sure would save me a ton of money instead of shelling out $300+ for a Model Factory Hiro kit.

[Zoom Zoom]

Tim, I had any pull with Tamiya at all they'd have done that Lusso years ago... If I ever win the lottery I'll hand them the funds to make it happen. That might be easier than the chore of dealing with Ferrari itself for licensing...

In regards to the 300SL engine, I just looked at my kit to see what you describe. While I feel your pain about the two pieces being molded together, I understand why Tamiya did that. That heat shield is a thin stamped piece of steel. If that were molded separately it would be quite a bit out of scale/proportion in thickness, and on a part of the model where you have a tolerance stack issue. I don't have issue at all the way they "solved" it with the thin webs of plastic on the intake on a mass-produced plastic kit. I can deal with that with careful paint detailing, or maybe with a foil impression. What bothers me about the SL is they should have included chrome transfers (or chrome decals, not just silver decals) for the hubcap emblems, and ideally two-piece hubcaps so the painted part is easily separate from the chrome surround. Beyond that, a few interior items like the chrome rail around the luggage compartment is missing. The aftermarket is stepping up thankfully. 

Oh, and I really hope Tamiya feels fit to make the roadster version of the 300 SL, which I quite a bit more than the gullwing...

[BVC500]

Well. OK, I can see the different points of view here - I think there are legitimate points made on all sides.    .

As I probably said years ago in this thread, I took the omission of a real engine from the DBS kit as a real affront to all that the Aston Martin brand and development team stood for in the current range of "DB-" products.  Much more than the latest high priced, low volume Lexus supercars that few will remember in 10 years, the engine was/is the sole of what an Aston Marti product.  Have any of you ever heard an Aston V-12 started and revved?  Run through the gears?  The only way Tamiya can make up for this grievous (in my opinion) error is to reissue the kit with a full engine included - as it should have been from the start.  

What's more, I still don't think Tamiya always gets the engine right.  Let's take the new 300SL kit.  In the real car, there's a heat-shield type part that runs directly beneath the exhaust headers.  Without having a 1/1 in my driveway but having studied photography extensively, this appears to me to be an entirely separate part - but on Tamiya's model kit, it's molded together with the exhaust headers.   Given the highly prominent/visible position of this assembly in the SL engine compartment (It's the first thing you see when you open the hood),  they should have been molded as two separate parts.  When I saw that in the kit, it alone was enough for me to put the kit box on the "maybe I'll build it someday" pile rather than the "desk-clearer" kit I had hoped for and expected.  

Having worked in the 1/1 scale auto industry for 35+ years, I often observed a tendency to place foreign-manufactured cars - particularly from the Japanese brands - above their American counterparts, whether deserved or not.  Sadly, I've sometimes observed the same discrimination in the model kit world    While no one would rightly say that ALL Tamiya kits are lacking in the engine compartment (and I think that is perhaps Bob's point), and the American kitmakers have never delivered the kit after kit superior consistency that would fully rank them the Asian kit makers, I do believe that kits developed by the American kit industry are often superior to their overseas competition in the way they design and manufacture their engines and engine compartments.  

I realize many of you ((probably most of you) will probably disagree with me on this, but that's my view.  In the meantime Bob maybe you can convince the Tamiya team to do another Aston kit with a proper, fully detailed, separate engine.  Or maybe a '62-'64 Berlinetta Lusso.  Yeah, that's it, do the Lusso with a proper kit and engine, and I'll permanently cease and desist on this.

Until then.... Cheers (smile).....TIM 

Don't forget the highly simplified direct fuel injection system, which was a first for Mercedes production cars.  Though that's not as visible with the belly pans in place.

It doesn't bother me that the DBS doesn't have a full engine - I'm just happy Tamiya did a modern Aston in the first place! But I'm intrigued by the idea of a reissue with a full engine insert. Maybe a DBS Volante at the same time.

Edited August 13, 2016 by BVC500

[tim boyd]

The Aston Martin kit is well worth whatever price you pay for it,  even with it not having a full a engine, and I really dont understand how quick people will dismiss what is a great kit for the simple fact that it may not have a 100% complete engine, and judging a entire kit on the bases of wether it has an engine or not is just stupid.

Jonathon.....call my judgment stupid if you wish, but that's my verdict and I'm sticking to it....particularly for a kit replicating a 1/1 car where the engine represents such a significant factor of the character of the automobile and its brand.   TIM 

Edited August 13, 2016 by tim boyd

[Mike999]

Tamiya's consistent, at least. They do this with their armor kits too.  The Tamiya M-51 Israeli Sherman was the third kit on the market, after Academy and Dragon. Tamiya finally nailed the complex muzzle brake that the other two companies flubbed.  Their suspension units only had a few parts but looked great. As opposed to the Dragon units, which were very fiddly and had about 20 parts each, including a section of brass tube (and there are 6 of them!).  

Then we get to a very prominent feature, the jerry cans and their racks...which were molded together as one piece. ARRRGHH!  Straight outta the 1970s!  You either paint everything black, then mask off the cans and paint the racks. Or paint everything IDF Sand, then mask the racks and very carefully paint the cans.

A small gripe overall, I guess, in such a good kit. But Tamiya always seems to do this.  The kit's 90-95% great and they drop the ball on a few things that just drive you crazy.

[Harry P.]

Ok, if I understand this correctly (and I think I do)... the kit includes only the "engine" parts that are actually visible when you open the hood. So why bother tooling up an entire engine assembly if 90% of it can't be seen on the finished model (or the real car)? I don't see the "problem" here.

[maltsr]

Ok, if I understand this correctly (and I think I do)... the kit includes only the "engine" parts that are actually visible when you open the hood. So why bother tooling up an entire engine assembly if 90% of it can't be seen on the finished model (or the real car)? I don't see the "problem" here.

Neither do I Harry, the engine bay looks pretty good to me.  The rest of the kit is excellent, except that it is wrong hand drive .

Edited August 14, 2016 by maltsr

[MrObsessive]

Harry, I can't give you a complete answer 'cept to say it's just a "thing" with me maybe. I could liken it to convertible kits that don't have an uptop. The model doesn't "need" it, but to me it just seems incomplete without it. After all, a convertible's point is to show off its interior------an uptop would hide that. I like uptops because they flat out look better IMO with them up as opposed to down.

Some of us perhaps may want to display the complete engine next to a car on display at a show for instance, and of course you can't do that with this one as Tamiya's defeated that purpose. 

As was mentioned, the Aston V-12 is a very key component to this car as well as Aston's racing heritage. It would have been icing on the cake if they could have given us a complete engine (once again MAYBE just for stand alone display purposes) as opposed to what some might consider an unreasonable facsimile. 

[tim boyd]

Harry....I think Bill captures it well....it may also be a generational thing.  My family environment growing up did not include car maintenance or car building as a way of life, or even as a weekend driveway exercise.  The only way for me to learn about cars, then, was to build models.  In doing so, I wanted to build every component in the car in my scale exercise, whether it could be seen on the finished model or not.  Ultimately, what I learned about cars from building models was a key, key competitive advantage for me vs my peers in my early sales and marketing jobs at Ford, and it gave me exposure and experience that greatly benefited me later in my career.  

Also, as Bill and I were coming into the hobby, the addition of engines to model car kits was just becoming a key competitive selling feature.  It was a feature that we came to expect, even demand, as we traipsed to the local hobby store to consider our next purchase.  

Now, fifty years later, to be in a situation where some of the most expensive kits on the market either simplify, or even just "suggest" the elements of the engine, seems a huge step backwards to me personally.  I wouldn't have learned about the mechanics of cars if these were the kits I was building as a kid.  

It should also be no surprise that I generally prefer American-designed kits over Asian-designed kits.  While each have their advantages, American-designed kits as a whole do a better/more realistic and lifelike recreation of components in the engine compartment (and often, with other areas of the car that are unseen in the finished model), while Japanese and Korean kits often have their own advantages in other areas of the model kit.  

I also generally want my model building experience to be an exact scale recreation in 1/24th or 1/25th scale of the same assembly process that I would follow if I was building the car in 1/1 scale.  

For all these reasons, the Tamiya Aston kit was a huge disappointment for me, and I was very vocal about that.  I'd like to think that my objections, along with many others including respected members of this board, led them to move to separately-molded engines in their high-end kits that followed.  But even with this, I'm not sure that they are yet, consistently, at the full level of engine detail found in many American-designed kits today (ergo the comments above about the 300SL engine...).   

For others who first entered the hobby a few years later, the overall finished appearance of the model, rather than the process of recreating all the internal elements of the 1/1 car in scale, may have become the greater consideration.  And there are others who simply grew up preferring Asian-designed kits for whatever reason, And under these points of of view, my objections to the simplified or even simulated engines would seem irrelevant, silly, or even, yes, stupid.  

So I can try to understand and acknowledge the opposing views here, but for me, my own position remains unchanged.  

Thanks for everyone taking their time to explain their positions here.  It's great dialogue like this that makes me want to revisit this forum every waking day of my life    TIM 

[MrObsessive]

Tim, this brings up another point that you mentioned in your '16 Camaro review. I too truly wish that all kitmakers would start calling out part names again as opposed to just an illustration with a number next to it. Case in point is the Tamiya BMW 850i kit that I'm trying to finish up. Tamiya got the molds from Revell and while they did a decent job of reboxing the kit, they also changed the instructions sheet where they don't name the parts on the sprue. 

I have this same kit in the Revell box, and on their instruction sheet it does call out the part name which I too believe is also educational especially for a young person just getting into cars. Unfortunately, and I don't know if it's because of a translation issue where everything is so international to not name parts on their kits, but the American manufacturers followed suit some years back by simply giving us numbers and illustrations with no part name given.

Just one of those little things that would go a long way to help those either not familiar with the car, or are not "car guys" like us who don't need no names for stuff!

I do have to commend AMT back in the '90's for finally putting color options on the sheet in relation to what was available in 1:1 on the car including the interior in their newest kits at the time. I have to give GIANT kudos to Moebius at the present as their instructions are the best to be had as far as layout, AND it's in bright, brilliant color to boot! Just to add that they indeed DO call out the part names on their instructions. Yeah, their build sequence might be a little wonky at times, but I give them an A+ for effort!

Now if we can get everyone else to follow suit..............

[Bennyg]

I'm just happy that companies produce models of cool cars. When Tamiya goes "full detail", the result is pretty great. I love the laferrari and FXX K, but improvements can still be made such as wire detail. 

 

Ben.

[Zoom Zoom]

I grew up in between the rise of both the American and (mostly) Japanese invasion when it comes to cars and models. My Dad had no problem, and enjoyed, going from one extreme to another with cars. '53 Cadillac to Fiat 600. '63 Wildcat to '66 Type 3 Fastback VW. So my model and car interests have always been universal. My first car was a hand-me-down Subaru DL from my Dad, an absolutely miserable car, both unreliable and horrible to drive. My second was an all-new 1980 Civic, which was an engineering miracle by comparison, and ridiculously better in quality and fun-to-drive than any similarly-priced domestic. It embarrassed the competition. It was quick, fun, perfectly screwed-together, and stupid reliable.

Short story:  Early Japanese kits were more like motorized toys with detailed bodies, where domestic kits were models first, promos were the "toy" element. Over the years, the Japanese upped their game, in models and real cars. And started offering quality and qualities the domestics were lacking. Competition improves the breed... 

What I've learned is that eventually Tamiya became absolutely top-tier with their models; while they might have been curbside instead of full-detail, or having fewer parts at times vs. full-detail American kits, they ooze quality. The parts are more precisely molded. Far less body prep, far fewer lumpy/wavy surfaces, smaller mold lines, less or non-existent flash, precise parts fit. There's less fuss getting the subject to look right. And if you like the subject matter, icing on the cake. Decals printed with far more precision. Chrome transfer emblems. Sometimes even opening sunroofs. They offered things that we just don't see in domestic kits. Nearly universal love from me from the actual build experience. Other Japanese models followed, but still cannot match the precision of Tamiya in many cases. The ones that do, namely Ebbro, are run by people formerly involved with Tamiya. Fujimi Enthusiast kits...tons of detail, tons of imprecise parts, but most like some of the best vintage domestic kits in the "detail trumps all" mindset.

None of the above takes away my enthusiasm for domestic kits (subject matter trumps all as the first consideration), but domestic kits are a different animal. They're built to a different mindset, for generally a different audience, they're not as precise, and often very obvious about being built to a price point as the very first objective. Sure, that extremely detailed engine and engine compartment can look great when finished, but more often than not it's more work with imprecise parts with sloppy mold lines, flash, and sloppy locating pins/receivers. I can live with that for subject matter, but it's pretty disappointing that one company in particular who we all know, is making not some, but all their modern subject kits these days in a far more simplistic manner than vintage subjects (which are getting better and better)...and that really bugs me, because there's no sign they have any intention of reversing the slide, while reminding me that they are doing less...a lot less. Where "full detail" is compromised and we're back to wire axles and a one or two piece chassis so that a very simplified engine, opening hood and lackluster engine compartment are becoming their norm. Maybe the AMT full-detail Camaro will be enough sway in the industry to stop the dumbing-down, but I don't think it will. I find stuff like that far more aggravating than a few missing parts on an otherwise superbly engineered kit. Yet if the subject sways me, I still buy/build. And then I'll build a Tamiya kit to get my perspective and sanity back 

[Foxer]

A DBS engine in a hot rod would have been cool ... oh well

[Daddyfink]

Quite honestly, I am surprised that US model makers have not done this more. Instead we get "Fully" detailed kits with poor detail. Some engines look like total lumps and are for the most part never really seen. Sure you have the satisfaction of having built the engine, but, for what, you can see it most of the time. I never go around opening hoods on my finished builds, most of them are in boxes and are not seen at all. 

Tamiya has become the standard for kits, like it or not, and even with sparse engine detail, they still looks way better than most kits. 

But once again, if you don't like it, don't buy it. 

[Zoom Zoom]

A DBS engine in a hot rod would have been cool ... oh well

For sure! Reality is that I'll be we can count on one hand the number of people who would purchase a $72 retail (or $50 discounted) Tamiya kit just for the parts to do that. Remember, model car guys at their core tend to be really, really cheap...myself often included 

[sjordan2]

Regarding Tamiya's Gullwing heat shield: I have most of the Gullwing kits out there, in all scales -- Italeri, Minicraft/Entex, AMT, etc. All of these either mold it like Tamiya has, or omit it entirely. Oddly, the only kit that has it as a separate part is the lamentable 1/12 kit by Renwal and Revell/Monogram. I don't see a problem with just scoring more separation on the edges of the heat shield.

In addition, it can be seen on more original cars that the heat shield is a bit shinier than the dull manifold, which should not be polished (Bill's photo looks a bit over-restored), so there's another way to differentiate the parts.

Edited August 14, 2016 by sjordan2

[Foxer]

For sure! Reality is that I'll be we can count on one hand the number of people who would purchase a $72 retail (or $50 discounted) Tamiya kit just for the parts to do that. Remember, model car guys at their core tend to be really, really cheap...myself often included 

point! 

[sjordan2]

Tim, I had any pull with Tamiya at all they'd have done that Lusso years ago... If I ever win the lottery I'll hand them the funds to make it happen. That might be easier than the chore of dealing with Ferrari itself for licensing...

In regards to the 300SL engine, I just looked at my kit to see what you describe. While I feel your pain about the two pieces being molded together, I understand why Tamiya did that. That heat shield is a thin stamped piece of steel. If that were molded separately it would be quite a bit out of scale/proportion in thickness, and on a part of the model where you have a tolerance stack issue. I don't have issue at all the way they "solved" it with the thin webs of plastic on the intake on a mass-produced plastic kit. I can deal with that with careful paint detailing, or maybe with a foil impression. What bothers me about the SL is they should have included chrome transfers (or chrome decals, not just silver decals) for the hubcap emblems, and ideally two-piece hubcaps...

Oh, and I really hope Tamiya feels fit to make the roadster version of the 300 SL, which I quite a bit more than the gullwing...

I also wish 300SL  kits had 2-piece hubcaps for easier painting, but the 1:1 versions were stamped out in 1 piece. Mercedes had a masking tool that looked like a branding iron to paint them. Aftermarket metal press-on ring stars are available in all scales.

 As for the roadster, Italeri's 1:24 (Testors Italeri) and 1:16 kits are outstanding, except for an inaccurate windshield frame and no up top (Franklin Mint nailed it). However, in the real world, the roadster has a wider grille and more bulbous fenders than the Gullwing, so the body has to be different; Italeri overlooked this on their Gullwings and used some roadster molds,making the Gullwings obviously inaccurate. Italeri also has some minor inaccuracies in the Gullwing's engine bay, such as 2 coils on the Gullwing firewall instead of one.

Edited August 14, 2016 by sjordan2

[MrObsessive]

Interesting factoids about the 300SL Skip. I always thought that the body on the roadsters seemed "beefier" than the Gullwings, and now I see where. And yes, I have the Italeri kit of the car and now I'll have to check out the windshield frame and see how it can be corrected if I ever decide to build it. The no fabric up-top thing kills me with that kit too, and I have a '50's Corvette hardtop that I'd like to modify to fit to use on that if the mood ever strikes me to tackle that one. The hardtop in the kit they give you isn't right to my eyes and just won't work.

Also It HAS TO have a fabric up-top as well!  I'm sure I can modify something that'll work. That's one of those cars that looks really good top up or down, and whether it has its hardtop in place or not.

[maltsr]

I have over 150 built kits, of which at least 85% are from 'American' manufacturers, so I am not biased when I say that from my experience the better kits are Japanese.

In addition to all Bob's reasons, two more stand out - tyres and 'glass'.

And if we are talking about realism, full size cars have brakes as well as engines.  The Japanese kitmakers have been replicating accurate disc brakes for decades, something the American manufacturers were (and occasionally are) way behind.

Japanese kits tend to be more expensive because one is paying for quality, which isn't cheap.  It's as though Tamiya et al aren't dominated by bean counters and the product comes first. Oh, and I'm not knocking bean counters, I used to be one .

Back on topic, the Aston is one of my most enjoyable builds and looks terrific in my display case.

[Harry P.]

)Harry, I can't give you a complete answer 'cept to say it's just a "thing" with me maybe. I could liken it to convertible kits that don't have an uptop. The model doesn't "need" it, but to me it just seems incomplete without it. After all, a convertible's point is to show off its interior------an uptop would hide that. I like uptops because they flat out look better IMO with them up as opposed to down.

Some of us perhaps may want to display the complete engine next to a car on display at a show for instance, and of course you can't do that with this one as Tamiya's defeated that purpose. 

As was mentioned, the Aston V-12 is a very key component to this car as well as Aston's racing heritage. It would have been icing on the cake if they could have given us a complete engine (once again MAYBE just for stand alone display purposes) as opposed to what some might consider an unreasonable facsimile. 

Obviously Tamiya went with a logical business decision here. Why spend the $$$ (or yen, I guess) to tool up a fully detailed engine, when almost none of it can be seen on the finished model?

As far as convertible kits with no uptop... isn't the whole point of a convertible to have the top down? How many people (besides you... ) would want to build a model of a convertible with the top up? 

I do get your point... sure, it would be cool if all convertible kits included an uptop... but the bottom line is the ultimate decider of what goes into any given kit. We all know that. 

[Rob Hall]

Obviously Tamiya went with a logical business decision here. Why spend the $$$ (or yen, I guess) to tool up a fully detailed engine, when almost none of it can be seen on the finished model?

As far as convertible kits with no uptop... isn't the whole point of a convertible to have the top down? How many people (besides you... ) would want to build a model of a convertible with the top up? 

I never had an issue w/ the engine in the DB2, since so little is actually seen when finished.    As for uptops, I like them when included so I can display them top up sometimes (I wouldn't glue on an uptop).  But when not included, no big deal.. 

[tim boyd]

What I've learned is that eventually Tamiya became absolutely top-tier with their models; while they might have been curbside instead of full-detail, or having fewer parts at times vs. full-detail American kits, they ooze quality. The parts are more precisely molded. Far less body prep, far fewer lumpy/wavy surfaces, smaller mold lines, less or non-existent flash, precise parts fit. There's less fuss getting the subject to look right. And if you like the subject matter, icing on the cake. Decals printed with far more precision. Chrome transfer emblems. Sometimes even opening sunroofs. They offered things that we just don't see in domestic kits. Nearly universal love from me from the actual build experience.  

Bob....I have much respect for your point of view here, and you've built and completed many more Tamiya kits than I've even opened the box on, much less started.  Taken as a whole (throughout the entire product offering) you offer a very compelling argument for your assessment of Tamiya's kits relative to the global competition.  

Yet there are American-designed kits, that on occasion fully challenge even the best Tamiya kits, in my opinion.  The one that most comes to mind at the moment is the Revell series of Offy and V8-60 Midgets, and the '50 Olds kits. Other recent offerings from the domestics?  Not so sure.... I've not built the Moebius Hudson kits, but from what I read, they might???? be in the same category.  The new AMT '16 Camaro SS, depending on how it assembles, might be the in same league.  This assessment does not factor in the price disparity between Tamiya and the Domestics, but if it did, the domestics would blow away the imports in value for the dollar (or yen).  I am highly doubtful that Tamiya could have delivered kits as good as these domestic-designed kits of these subjects, especially in terms of their drivetrain/chassis completeness (which may not matter to most of you here but does matter greatly to me) regardless of the price point.  So when individual efforts are concerned (vs the consistency of the entire product offering) I don't see Tamiya's position as unassailable.  I realize that the group following this thread will again probably mostly/completely disagree with me, but I've never been one to back down for the sake of popularity, either.   

Then again, as you said several times in your post, subject matter trumps all, and I can sure agree 100% with you on that point.  Thanks for taking the time to state your case.  ....TIM

[Rob Hall]

Trying to compare Tamiya product (or other import kit makers) with the domestics is a pointless exercise--it's an apples and oranges comparison, since with a few exceptions, they have different subject matter in different scales targeting different builders and sold in different markets.   They really aren't competing against each other...some buy import only, some buy domestic only, some each...probably 50/50 for me. 

[Dragline]

I have this kit and was thrilled with how much engine was there. Truth is [and said above], the engine is largely covered and what is there is well represented. if even 200 builders used the engine for other purposes that wouldn't represent a reason to develop the engine in totality. But were it complete how many would use it in other builds? All supposition of course.

 

Aoshima is going to release a full engine detail Pagani Huayra this fall. The intervening years will show how many of those engines get used for other purposes. THAT engine [AMG Built BMW] is not only very powerful but has turbos and the whole nine. Time will have to pass in order to see what Hot Rodding is done with that engine. But from the test shot many of us saw it is state of the art.

 

So lack of a TOTAL engine didn't stop me from buying this kit. It was the name on the box that sold me. I knew I was getting a serious kit that was accurate and would build straight and true. This will allow my finishing skills to produce what should be a stellar build. I have seen quite a few here and almost without exception they have been beauties.