The Corvair Topic

[Chuck Most]

Huh. Awfully cryptic way of spreading the word I guess.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Chuck Most

[ToyLvr]

Chuck:

What fun is it if you can't obsess about it? ;-)

Some 45 years after it went out of production, the Corvair is still as controversial as ever.

I absolutely love it whenever ANY Corvair (or Corvair powered) kit is reissued. Apparently there are a lot of other Corvair fans out there, too.

[Maindrian Pace]

Draw your own conclusions.

-MJS

[DonW]

You can roll pretty much any road car if you try hard enough. Is a BMW 2002 unsafe at any speed? Well, I rolled one many years back, swerving to avoid a dog in the road - a combination of high speed and a lot of youthful inexperience. Not the car's fault.

[Snake45]

and where does this little guy fit in ? 1963-1965 , 1966-1967

That was Chevy's answer to the Falcon, which was outselling the Corvair IIRC.

[om617]

Draw your own conclusions.

-MJS

Here are european cars doing the same. I should not laugh but i just could not hold it during this 7min video.

[unclescott58]

Fun watching the above videos. The first section in the first video, showing them trying to roll a Corvair, my thought was that driving any car in the same maneuver could be a little hairy. By the way the begining of the film, I thought it said the gas tank was removed? When they were manually rolling the car back over, you can see the gas tank is still in the car. The Ford tests. I don't know what to make of those?

Corvair is the most misunderstood car in history. Corvair's real problems were economics and the stupidity on GM's part for trying to discredit an unknown, at the time, young lawyer by the name of Ralph Nader. GM and the public never understood Corvair. Ford's convential Falcon out sold the Corvair in way that Chevrolet rushed out its convential designed Chevy II to counter it. In they mean time, the late '60 addition of Corvair Monza showed some signs of life. Lee Iacocca at Ford understood more than the guys at Chevrolet what was going on with the Monza version of Corvair. And a conventional, "cheap" to build, sporty Falcon based Mustang was his answer.

Corvair's biggest problem is it shared little to nothing with other GM products. A few parts here and there. But not enough parts to justify its somewhat low sales figures. Camaro which share most its mechanical underpinnings with the upcoming '68 Chevy II/Nova and other GM cars made a lot more sense. Corvair was designed around an aluminum air cooled flat six. At a time when Americans mainly wanted convential V-8 engines in their cars. Eventuly even in their compact cars. It was not economically practical to develop a V-8 powered Corsair without a back seat.

People also forget, in the end the government exonerated the Corvair and its handling problems. Most of lawsuits against the Corvair were won by GM. So much for "unsafe at any speed."

Scott

Edited October 26, 2014 by unclescott58

[Psychographic]

I don't see a whole lot of Corvair in the Camaro, other than the "hip" rear fender kickup that was seen on most GM cars of the mid-late '60s.

Cut the grille area out of the 2nd gen Corvair, then look at it from the windshiels forward. To me it looks a lot like a 1st gen Camaro.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Psychographic

[ChrisBcritter]

Draw your own conclusions.

-MJS

Well, I see how the underside should be painted...

[Snake45]

Cut the grille area out of the 2nd gen Corvair, then look at it from the windshiels forward. To me it looks a lot like a 1st gen Camaro.

Well, if you see it, fine.

There's a certain amount of "family similarity" there of course, but it's not particularly strong to me. I believe I've read that the '67 Camaro was a "clean sheet of paper" design.

[unclescott58]

Well, I see how the underside should be painted...

corvair bottom.jpg

Notice the gas tank just behind the front suspension components. I think it was still left in the car, despite what was said at the beginning of the film.

Scott

[unclescott58]

By the way, one of the things I like about the 2nd generation Corvair is the 4-door hardtop body style. Only compact car built in America that offered that body style. Sporty, good looking, and somewhat practical. What's not to like?

Scott

[vairnut]

The Chevy II/Nova was developed to compete with the Falcon and Valiant just as was the intent of the Corvair. The Corvair did not compete in the market it was targeted at. It somehow made a new market segment with buyers coming from who knows where. The sales numbers were far from poor. In the early 60's a 100,000 volume was considered a good sales target. In the early model years there were more Corvairs sold than all Olds models, and all Buick models.

Some numbers for Corvair car production and the Chevy II:

1961 Corvair car production : 282,075

1962 Corvair : 292,531 1962 Chevy II/Nova : 326,607

1963 Corvair : 254,571 1963 Chevy II/Nova: 373,626

1964 Corvair ; 191,915 1964 Chevy II/Nova : 191,691

1965 Corvair : 235,528 1965 Chevy II/Nova : 122,800

1966 Corvair : 103,743 1966 Chevy II/Nova : 172,485

The Mustang introduction just blew everything away, with something like 500,000 in the first 6 months, and 1.5 million in the first 1 1/2 years. The Chevelle probably took more sales from Nova than it from the Corvair.

As far as the rollover tests - these were common and conducted by the manufacturers on all models, There are rollover testing films of GM doing this on cars since the 1930's. Cars were crash tested, barrier tested, and rollover tested even though there were no safety requirements in place.

Most of these Corvair videos are before any of the safety claims surfaced, and some films did end up in competitiors hands. Look for the one's on the early Ford Econoline panic stops for some entertainment.

When the first rollover case came to court GM was unprepared to defend the car. GM had 1 corporate lawyer at the time to deal with patent issues. The older woman who sued and had rolled her Corvair had also rolled her previous vehicles. This first case was settled out of court, and all following lawsuits against the Corvair properly defended the car's safety and were dismissed. During the first case, I think in Fla, a certain sudo law student was an observer in the court room, and decided to become an advocate for consumer safety.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Any of you guys remember the NSU Prinz 4, introduced in 1961? Anything look a little familiar??

[unclescott58]

Jeff, you mention the Chevy video showing the Econoline in a panic stop. That's a fun video. I wonder how many times that really happened on the road. It had to be pretty scary when it did! Before the Econoline vans, Jeep made the similar looking flat nose FC models. I've read that you had to be very careful in using those vehicles off road because of their front end and top heavy weight bias.

Also good point on Corvair sales. Corvair was not failure. It just did not sell as well as Falcon, or what Chevrolet had hoped for. It sold well enough for Chevrolet to design a 2nd generation of the car. Sales really did not slump bad until 1967 and introduction of the Camaro. Though you can see some softening of sales on the '66s as the bad press was starting to mount. And your right about Chevelle taking sales from the Chevy II. Americans were not big (pardon the pun) into small cars in the long run. The compact boom was mainly brought about by people tiring of the too big and over styled cars being offered in the late 1950's. Again, Ford figured this out first. As Chevrolet brought out the Chevy II, Ford was introducing their new smaller Fairlane. This new mid-size Ford did not sell as well as either the Falcon or the Chevy II at first. Or even that year's Corvair. But, the product planers and marketers saw that it was what the American public really wanted. For 1964 Chevrolet got their new Chevelle based on the new mid-size A body platform share with the redesigned former BOP compacts. Buick Special/Skylark, Oldsmobile F-85/Cutlass, and Pontiac Tempest/LeMans. As these intermediate size cars started selling, you'll notice all the compact cars start pulling less and less market share. It took a couple of gas crisis in the 1970's to get us to think about smaller car again. And for government CAFE standards to regulate big cars out of existence. Since people can't buy big cars anymore, what do they do? Switch to bigger gas guzzling trucks. Ah, the government and its infinite wisdom.

Scott

Edited October 26, 2014 by unclescott58

[chunkypeanutbutter]

One of my friends is buying a Corvair Monza for $1000

[unclescott58]

By the way, it should be noted that Chevrolet built their last Corvair in May of 1969. Ford's big hit, the compact Falcon lasted only until December of 1969. Falcon sales too had been dropping over the second half of the 1960's. In the spring of '69 Ford had their next big hit. The Maverick. Between Maverick sales and the cost of converting Falcon to the locking steering column, required on all cars built starting on January 1, 1970. Ford decided to let Falcon go. They move the Falcon nameplate over to a cheaper version of the Fairlane/Torino mid-size line of cars. But even that was gone by the fall of '70. I find it interesting we look Corvair as failure, and Falcon as success. Yet they both left the market fairly close to each other. At least in The United States.

Scott

[mnwildpunk]

Scott can you post the ford video your talking about? I couldn't find it

[unclescott58]

Scott can you post the ford video your talking about? I couldn't find it

I wish I knew how to link things up, but I don't. And I'm not sure if Ive seen this video on line. My cousin-in-law Russel, first showed it to me on a video tape he has. But, it was a dealer film talking about the advantages of the Corvair 95 pickup truck over the Econoline pickup. I don't if the vans themselves were as tippy in the nose or not. I'm going to go on YouTube and see if I can find it.

Scott

Edited October 25, 2014 by unclescott58

[unclescott58]

Scott can you post the ford video your talking about? I couldn't find it

Go to YouTube and search for Corvair pickup. When I did it, the second video it offered me was that film. Scary and fun, watching the Econoline pickup brake from only 45 mph! Why didn't we hear more about this? I'd feel a lot safer driving a Corvair.

Scott

[oldcarfan]

Ralph Nader saw an opportunity for publicity and rode it into a career, for better or worse. Bad press aside, if any one thing can be said to have killed the Corvair, I think it would be the difference in platforms. The Chevy II, Falcon and Dart among others made the Corvair redundant. At the time GM, Ford and the others basically built front engine rwd cars. Compact or full size, the general layouts were basically the same which meant shared parts across several product lines, which in turn meant greater profits. The Corvair was essentially a standalone product requiring many unique parts which economy of scale couldn't justify.

The Corvair was an attempt to copy VW, down to its suspension. Regarding its handling, in one of my dad's old Road and Track magazines of the time, I remember reading that a swaybar that would have cost very little at the time would have stopped the dreaded "tuck-under" which caused many accidents in Corvairs, VW's, Porsches and Triumph Spitfires.

Edited October 25, 2014 by oldcarfan

[unclescott58]

Ralph Nader saw an opportunity for publicity and rode it into a career, for better or worse. Bad press aside, if any one thing can be said to have killed the Corvair, I think it would be the difference in platforms. The Chevy II, Falcon and Dart among others made the Corvair redundant. At the time GM, Ford and the others basically built front engine rwd cars. Compact or full size, the general layouts were basically the same which meant shared parts across several product lines, which in turn meant greater profits. The Corvair was essentially a standalone product requiring many unique parts which economy of scale couldn't justify.

The Corvair was an attempt to copy VW, down to its suspension. Regarding its handling, in one of my dad's old Road and Track magazines of the time, I remember reading that a swaybar that would have cost very little at the time would have stopped the dreaded "tuck-under" which caused many accidents in Corvairs, VW's, Porsches and Triumph Spitfires.

I only have one argument with what you said above Gary. And that is your first sentance. Ralph Nader was not looking for publicity for himself or his career. I have met the man. I don't agree with his views on a lot of things. But, he seems to be an honest man trying to do right thing for the public. He did not seek the spot light that Corvair and GM gave him. He wrote a book on car safety that few people read at the time. GM didn't like what he had to say about their Corvair, so they hired private detectives to dig up dirt on the guy. Not only did they not find any dirt, they got caught by a Washington reporter trying to do it. Now if GM is worried about what this Nader guy is saying, there must be some truth behind it. And again, despite my liking the Corvair, there was some. So the Washington reporter looks into into it. And reports on it.

 

This all blows up in GM's face. Nader is partially right. And GM is trying to invade Mr. Nader's private life for nefarious reasons. To top it off, Mr. Nader worked for at that time a powerful U.S. senator. Senator Abraham Ribicoff of Connecticut. And he was interested in automobile safety. GM's chairman James Roche gets called into the senate and ends up publicly apologizing to Mr. Nader. Making him into a national figure to be listened to. In the meantime, other companies with swing arm axle vehicles kept their mouths shut. Avoiding the bad publicity. And in the case of Volkswagen selling more Beetles in this country then ever before.

 

In the early 1970's Ralph Nader tried to get all Volkswagen buses, past and present, removed from the roads. He also would have liked to stop the sales of new Beetles. This information appeared in the press. Including a long article in Road & Track at the time. But, still Volkswagen kept their mouths shut. Giving story little to no traction or interest.

 

Nader was not the problem. It was GM and its 1960's arrogance. GM's Goliath challenging Nader's David. And public likes to root for and believe in the little guy. The Davids. Whether the David's facts are 100% correct or not.

 

Scott

Edited July 14, 2016 by unclescott58

[Joe Handley]

Here's a Corvair P/U vs Econoline P/U dealer film.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Joe Handley

[ChrisBcritter]

Don't forget that at the same time the Chevy II was being hurried to production, Ford was rushing in the other direction to compete with VW with its Cardinal project. A V-4 front-engine, front-wheel-drive coupe with styling somewhat resembling a Rambler American; it would have hit the showrooms in 1963 as the Redwing but was canceled at the last minute; instead it became the new German Taunus 12M and was successful overseas.

I wonder what would have happened with Corvair if it had been designed with this (front/front) drivetrain layout?

Edited October 25, 2014 by ChrisBcritter

[Aaronw]

I've always assumed the Corvair was a response to the import market. In 1955 imports accounted for less than 1% of sales, but by 1960 they made up 10% of new car sales (or around 800,000 cars / year).

When looked at a counter to the growing import market the Corvair outsold any import. VW was selling around 20,000 Beetles a year in the US in 1960, and peaked at 90,000 in 1975.The Beetle was the top selling import car for most of the 60s.

I can't find sales numbers but Corvair production was in the 100,000-300,000 range for each of the first 6 years. Maybe small by Chevrolet standards, but more than any import of the time.