Walk, then Run

[Harry P.]

One thing I would suggest would be for the forum to add a section for Criticism. On a aircraft forum they have this. Under Glass would become a "showroom". If you post a build in the "CRITIQUE CORNER" you are EXPECTING criticism good or bad, no complaints or whining. That would eliminate most of the trouble.

That would work if forum members actually paid attention to the rules and followed them. As a moderator here for several years, I can tell you that ain't gonna happen.

Besides, the whole point of a forum, IMO, is interaction among the members. I don't see the point in having a special "look but don't comment" section for the thin-skinned and easily offended.

I've said this probably dozens of times already, but I'll say it again: When you post photos of your work on a public forum, comments–including critiques and/or criticism–are to be expected. It's part of what makes a "forum" a forum.

If you are the type of person who cannot handle that, do not post your work. Simple as that.

[Jantrix]

I could not agree more Harry. Although there is merit to the idea of a feedback section. There could be much more than just critique. There could be a lot of ideas thrown around on what a person could do to the model to further the design. A modeling think tank if you will.

[Harry P.]

I could not agree more Harry. Although there is merit to the idea of a feedback section. There could be much more than just critique. There could be a lot of ideas thrown around on what a person could do to the model to further the design. A modeling think tank if you will.

We already have a feedback section: any of the Workbench or Under Glass areas. No need for a "special" section for feedback when feedback is perfectly appropriate in the areas we already have.

[Dr. Cranky]

I'm late to the conversation, but I'll throw in my rusty ten cents worth. This is my personal journey in the hobby. I think all builders (young and starting out or old and getting back into the hobby), learn and get better in different ways.

Here's what happened to me. I built models (military, planes, and cars) until I was about 17 or so. Then as it happened to all of us, life got a hold of me: school, girlfriends, more school, wife, children, mortgage, work, work, work, work, work, work and MORE WORK! In my late 30s, I found myself with a garage full of canaries (over 300 to be exact). I was breeding and showing but my girls were quickly developing bird dander allergies, so I gave up my birds, then looked around for another hobby. I've always believed in doing stuff with my hands. I've always drawn, painted, built things, so naturally I went to Wal-Mart one day and bought a kit. I will never forget it. It was the AMT 50 Chevy Street Machine. Brought it home. This thing brought glue and paint in it. Pretty soon after I opened the kit, I realized I would need some other tools. So I went out and bought a few things. I put the kit together quickly, ruined the paint job. Went back to the store, bought another, built that and ruined the paint job again. So on and so forth. I ruined lots of kits that first year.

THEN THE PROVERBIAL LIGHT WENT OFF! Like every other time in my life when I've felt like a fish out of water, I went to the local hobby shop and there I found one of the best books on model cars ever written: PAT COVERT'S book on the subject. I brought it home and burned up the pages reading that sucker over and over. Went back and bought Terry Jesse's book. Did the same. I did not build models until I thoroughly informed myself. Until I had enough information in me to make me feel a bit more comfortable.

Then quickly after that I started making real progress. Like Donn Yost said, I did not start out buying a lot of kits. I bought more INFORMATION (how-tos) and more tools. Quickly, I set up a small desk in the garage and worked there. My first airbrush was the Paasche H. I did not buy it right away. I had already been building for like 3 years, cutting my teeth on the rattle cans. The Paasche H is a beginner's perfect tool. Later I graduated to the Iwatas. But again, if I had to say what helped the most at the start was the INFORMATION. I did not have any other builders around me. I had no one to guide me. I was also warming up to telling other people I was returning to my childhood via building models.

I envy all those here who have never stopped building from the days of their childhoods. I think the normal route is to start young, and keep doing it regardless of what is going on in your life. It took me a while to realize that building models is not only fun, but for me it's also THERAPY. It helps relax me. It's more than a hobby for that reason, and the ever-increasing investment in time and money I've sunk into it is totally worth it. THE THERAPY HELPS ME! More than ever.

I see so many middle aged folks around me, moping about lamenting they don't have the time, energy, inclination . . . and making the time is every builder's responsibility. That simple. You want to build models, eh?

Doctor Cranky's formula:

1. Make time

2. Inform yourself (that includes reading the mags, books, watching videos--FEED YOUR HEAD--participate in the forum exchange)

3. Build at your skill level

4. Buy good tools right off the bat (trust me, you will save money in the long run)

5. You don't need a lot of fancy tools to build models, but if you want them, follow #4.

6. Don't build alone, build inside a community (forum and local clubs) and share your work. Sharing your work will save you time.

7. Keep an open mind about learning and about the feedback/criticism you receive. Go to shows and ask the builders of your favorite models your questions.)

8. Keep your first couple of models (later when you compare them to recent work, you'll be amazed by your progress)

9. Share your information, help others coming up.

AND #10 AND MOST IMPORTANT:

Remember to have fun. Building models is supposed to bring you joy and satisfaction. It's a hobby. Don't take it too seriously. But if you do take it seriously, keep your wits about you. Strive to be an ambassador to the hobby and pass down what you learn. And my styrene bring you many years of pleasure and satisfaction.

LONG LIVE STYRENE

[Ron Hamilton]

I really like this thread. Personally, I've gone back to crawling, as I am having a hard time finishing anything. Though over 50 years of model building, I have seen models of all levels, from the worst whole tube of glue build, to the most exquisite detailed model that can, and did win "Best of Show" at the contests and NNL's it was entered. Taking my time, I cannot compete with the "greats" out there, but I am having a pretty good time. One thing I do is ask questions. The best builders out there, for the most part, will be happy to share their techniques on how to do a better model. At a show where I was a judge, I sat at a table preparing a model to paint it. It must have been a show, as I got quite a few questions, as to what I was doing, and why was I doing it? In explaining what I was doing (removing mould lines, filling sink marks, correcting casting flaws, and adding body separation lines) I simply said "look at the real car, and replicae that on your model". Anytime someone asks how I did something on a particular model, I do my best to answer the question. At one of our club meetings (M.A.M.A.), I brought a model that I built about 20 years ago, and started to "refresh" it, as it was falling apart, with grainy paint, and some missing trim. I cleaned and rubbed it out at the meeting, and brought the refreshed model to the next meeting. I got a lot of positive feedback on the model.

I have yet to photograph the finished model, but it came out pretty nice.

All I can say is "If you are lacking certain skills, ask someone whose work you admire how they would approach certain aspects of modeling" You may be surprised that they will be happy to help one improve their skills, and some day, that same person may show the old dog some new tricks.

[Tom Geiger]

I think I'll chime in...

Like most of us I built models as a kid. My results were pretty much the cars we toss into the Purple Pond today. Then I grew up and got side tracked by girls, cars, school and work. I tried to get back to model building several times, and I'd cruise the model aisle in the local toy stores, occasionally picking up something interesting. Then I'd try to build again. My results were the same as when I was a kid, same skill level, and I'd get discouraged and pack it away. Repeat process several times.

Then I was in my late 20s, had a wife and two kids when I went on a business trip to Boston. There I found Scale Auto Enthusiast Magazine in a book store. I was amazed that the hobby was alive and well and populated with adults. In that first issue I saw Joe Cavorley's scratch built NYC bus. I was floored. Little did I know that later I'd be friends with him and he'd coach me in the fine weathering arts.

In the back of that very first issue, was a small ad to join the Tri-State Scale Model Car Club. I sent in my self addressed stamped envelope, got a nice reply that said they'd be throwing a little show in a few weeks and I should come. Man, a model car show. I had wanted to attend one of those since I was a kid! That was NNL East 3. I went, was amazed by the models I saw and immediately wanted to be involved, so I joined the club,

The trick for me was joining the club! The guys there took me under their wing as 'the new guy' and taught me the tricks and techniques. I realized I wasn't stupid or unskilled, I just hadn't learned all of this on my own! My models became better overnight and kept getting better as I worked and seeked out more advise. That was 25 years ago and it's been a long strange trip, but I wouldn't change a moment of it.

[zenrat]

Sorry to do this Virg but I think your formula needs a little revision.

Doctor Cranky's formula (as revised by zenrat):

0.5 Have fun.

1. Make time.

1.5 Have fun.

2. Inform yourself (that includes reading the mags, books, watching videos--FEED YOUR HEAD--participate in the forum exchange).

2.5 Have fun.

3. Build at your skill level...

3.5 ...but don't be afraid to try new things and have fun

4. Buy the best tools you can afford (trust me, you will save money in the long run).

4.5 Have fun.

5. You don't need a lot of fancy tools to build models, but if you want them, follow #4 & #4.5.

5.5 Have fun.

6. Don't build alone, build inside a community (forum and local clubs) and share your work. Sharing your work will save you time and will be fun.

6.5 Have fun.

7. Keep an open mind about learning and about the feedback/criticism you receive. Go to shows and ask the builders of your favorite models your questions.

7.5 Enjoy yourself and have fun.

8. Keep your first couple of models (later when you compare them to recent work, you'll be amazed by your progress).

8.5 Have fun

9. Share your information, help others coming up.

AND #10 AND MOST IMPORTANT: Remember to have fun. Building models is supposed to bring you joy and satisfaction and be fun. It's a hobby. Don't take it too seriously. But if you do take it seriously, do it with twinkle in your eye keep your wits about you and have fun. Strive to be an ambassador to the hobby and pass down what you learn. And may styrene bring you many years of pleasure and satisfaction and fun.

Edited July 30, 2013 by zenrat

[Dr. Cranky]

Fred, I like the way you bring in all the extra FUN. LOL! You are right though. If it ain't fun, the objective is to find a hobby that is.

[Dragfreak]

We all forget the many nights of messing with Lady Trial n Error . Was it because we were too stubborn to quit , too dumb , or because we wanted it that bad ? Today's young modeler has a diffrent mind set , if at first you don't succeed , screw it , back to the video games . We don't want that , we want them to have success so they hang around . Hence , the older modelers need to teach patience , and be thoughtful when offering advice .

Donn Yost

Lone Wolf Custom Painting

Well im 14 (I fall into the young modeler category) and I don't have the at first you don't succeed screw it I have the after 5 tries screw it and try a different approach. I guess im weird being a 14 year old who can not stand video games, id rather be studying things like the suspension on my high school drag car ('71 vega panel express) and figuring out how it all works and how the diagonal link or the ladder bars work on my dads 72 vega and learning how nitrous works and produces the power, I guess im the odd one out who would rather find out how stuff works than play some dumb video game

Edited July 30, 2013 by Dragfreak

[W-409]

I couldn't agree more with Jason. Though I'm 16 and I'm trying to learn those Stock Eliminator tips and tricks.

Someone said about the seperate Feedback Section. I think that would be the death for Under Glass, since at least I want honest opinions from my builds that I post. Then I can do better job next time (Or at least try to do). I'm happy to get Constructive criticism because that is the way you learn. Of course compliments and good comments are nice to hear, too. And I bet that I'm not the only one who does this.

And if I'm building something, and the first time is not a success, then I start all over again so many times that I'm satisfied with it.

[Mach1revo]

I couldn't agree more with Jason. Though I'm 16 and I'm trying to learn those Stock Eliminator tips and tricks.

Someone said about the seperate Feedback Section. I think that would be the death for Under Glass, since at least I want honest opinions from my builds that I post. Then I can do better job next time (Or at least try to do). I'm happy to get Constructive criticism because that is the way you learn. Of course compliments and good comments are nice to hear, too. And I bet that I'm not the only one who does this.

And if I'm building something, and the first time is not a success, then I start all over again so many times that I'm satisfied with it.

Not sure i follow you here Niko. You say it would be the "death" of the Under Glass section but you are looking for feedback?

I think if a separate section is not feasible then just asking for feedback in our posts is the easiest solution. I dont post often cause i dont build often enough.

I built as a kid up into high school then took a break until about 4 years ago ( im 33). Upon returning to the hobby i trashed a few builds till i got serious and focused on building a clean box stock build. I still try and build over my head sometimes but usually practice major changes on a side project or spare body. I usually try one or two new techniques on each build. Sometimes they work sometimes they dont.

Forums like this and other are a great resource as long as you realize who is giving the advice. Also Youtube is filled with good tutorials from well known builders. Going to shows and contests also really opened my eyes to what can be done and also inspires me to build better. I have entered contests and even won a few awards but always look to improve. Honest feedback definately helps. I try to ask the judges (espacially at a IPMS event) what could be done better and what they were looking for. I dont build for trophys but enjoy hanging one by a build ive done. My younger brother also builds and we bounce ideas off each other and honestly critique each others work. It helps to be your own worst critic sometimes and not being afraid to start over or redo something till its right or the best you can do at that time. Its only plastic. Also if your not having fun walk away till frustration subsides. Often a fresh look will fix it.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Mach1revo

[ScaleDale]

I think all this talk of separating comments from image posts is just not feasible. It's a forum, if you post a photo of a build, someone is going to say something about it. Maybe good, maybe bad. Maybe constructive, maybe just opinion. It's the nature of sharing on the Internet.

Dale

[Mach1revo]

My sugestion wasnt so much to separate the images from the comments. Under Glass could continue on just how it is with its "good jobs and nice build " warranted or not. I suggested a section where you post looking for HONEST feedback on a build or W.I.P with the understanding that it could be good or bad. If its allowed in Under Glass why does this always come up? I understand that rules dont get followed sometimes but i also realize not everyone is looking to have people tear apart their build. I always appreciate any feedback on my builds because they may see something i missed or may know something about the subject matter that i dont. I can then decide if i want to fix or research the suggestion more. I think the bottom line here is we all want to help other builders but some peoples wording or approach for fear of offending them is what prevents it alot of times. Just a suggestion as i have seen it work on other modeling forums.

[mrknowetall]

I'm on board with what Virg says, particularly about the tools and the need to inform yourself. I've been at this almost all of my life, with time off for military duty and life in general.

[imarriedawitch]

The only thing I've learned from reading all of this is I'll never have the need to post pictures.

Comment: I couldn't help but notice you're still not making alternator brackets. They're easy to do and will add a lot.

Response: Correct. Never have and never will.

Comment: Unfortunate color choice. Probably would look better in a factory color.

Response: You're right, however around here we use what we have. Something my father taught me.

Comment: You realize this would never work in real life.

Response: Yes. So?

Comment: Do what you want, they won't be on my shelf.

Response: They won't be on a shelf here either.

People need to understand we're not all here for the same reasons. Perhaps model building doesn't rank as high in one persons life as it does in the next person. For the many that want to learn there may be some that just aren't interested. For those looking to improve with each build consider that there may be some that don't. Remember, it's just a hobby.

Edited July 30, 2013 by imarriedawitch

[Jantrix]

Scott, for some, it IS a hobby. And that's great. More power to ya.

But for others, and I daresay a signifcant portion of the populous here......it's art.

And the goal of any artist......is to be someday thought a master. And we have several here, though they might deny the claim.

So you will understand if folks sort of assume that others are of the same mind, and wish to become better modelers.

And if any of the critiques you wrote above bother you, then yes, perhaps you shouldn't post any builds. Because what would be the point?

"Hello, this is my model. I do not wish any comments about it."

Unless you just want the big public pat on the back.

In any case, I want to sort of shift this thread back to the original idea if possible. The thread is about not taking on more work than is possible at ones current skill level. It is a suggestion that a builder should learn the basics before starting the advanced tasks.

We have had many threads on the subject of criticism, pro's and con's galore, and that's not what I was looking for here.

[sjordan2]

Well said, Rob. Most of the time, I only comment on builds that I think are truly well done, identifying what I particularly like, and if I say something about how to improve a thing, I try to phrase it as constructively as possible. I would add that the biggest faults I see on builds shown on this forum are orange peel on paint, over-scale metal flake in metallic paint jobs, and wrinkly BMF. I don't comment where it doesn't really help at the end, and I (usually) don't comment on subject matter that is not of interest to me, though I will give attaboys to people who build such subjects if ti's really a nice build.

That's all done in the spirit of your original post as I understand it, which is to encourage modelers to get the basics down and learn from criticism.

[LoneWolf15]

Well im 14 (I fall into the young modeler category) and I don't have the at first you don't succeed screw it I have the after 5 tries screw it and try a different approach. I guess im weird being a 14 year old who can not stand video games, id rather be studying things like the suspension on my high school drag car ('71 vega panel express) and figuring out how it all works and how the diagonal link or the ladder bars work on my dads 72 vega and learning how nitrous works and produces the power, I guess im the odd one out who would rather find out how stuff works than play some dumb video game

Jason and Niko ....

You two have come light years in a very short period of time with your building skills and are to be commended for your talent and skills . Yes , I have been watching ! Lol !

When I wrote this , it was more to chastise the older members of the forum for their comments and behavior towards the younger members at that time , rather than a criticism of the younger generation who chose not to participate in the hobby .

Both of you , if you continue to build , are going to be forces to be reckoned with on the show tables for many years to come ! I encourage you to continue to push the proverbial envelope with your skill development and broadening it's range .

Keep up the great work !

Donn Yost

Lone Wolf Custom Painting

[Tom Geiger]

I don't comment where it doesn't really help at the end,

I tend to comment when someone posts a build in progress and there is something they can fix as they build. I try to phrase it more as 'here's something that will help your model' rather than 'you are wrong'.

[sjordan2]

I tend to comment when someone posts a build in progress and there is something they can fix as they build. I try to phrase it more as 'here's something that will help your model' rather than 'you are wrong'.

Yes, that's the way to go. That's help, not after-the-fact criticism.

[Harry P.]

Yes, that's the way to go. That's help, not after-the-fact criticism.

Most people don't post their work in progress, they only post the finished product. "After the fact" comments are the only ones possible.

[sjordan2]

Most people don't post their work in progress, they only post the finished product. "After the fact" comments are the only ones possible.

Also true, and often unfortunate. You can only make a comment that might help them do better next time. There is a current thread with a very proud modeler who woefully colored outside the lines on the black for the car's grille, and an astute member mentioned that the grille could be better, and brush-painted trim was pretty sketchy. Several attaboys and the modeler didn't get it, and I didn't feel like explaining more. I don't like telling someone their build has problems, but perhaps I should have. I chose to stay quiet. If it's a work in progress, they have a chance to improve it.

Edited July 30, 2013 by sjordan2

[2whl]

I just stumbled onto this thread, but I like the idea behind it. Some say you should always push yourself, but sometimes building a kit cleanly out of the box, IS pushing yourself. I started a ship on another forum and had said that since it was my first ship, and a sailing ship w/rigging, that I would be building it OOB. Then some one chimed in with this comment.

"Bad idea. If you do choose to build anything, always test your talents. OOB just means that you got paid for a review (a) or b it could have been better but you chose not. Snap out of it."

Needless to say, I was astounded by such a callous comment. I'm glad there are those on this forum that understand the need to build something OOB.

Edited July 30, 2013 by 2whl

[rel14]

Years ago,,a wise old salesman i knew, Kirby, always said,, (( You go to bed dumb,,You get up dumb.) So, everyday i try

to learn something new, and it works the same with models,,learn something new everyday,, Criticism is good if applaid

to the sore in the right manner,.all wounds will heal.. So remember what " Kirby" said,,, and have a Great day..

[Jantrix]

From time to time I think it's a good idea to give this thread a bump. There a lot of great advice here from some of the best builders on the forum that might benefit newer builders. I hope no one minds.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Jantrix