Any chemists out there?

[Harry P.]

If they can make synthetic oil, why can't they make synthetic gasoline?

[Daddyfink]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_fuel

Let's do it!

Edited March 31, 2015 by Daddyfink

[Miatatom]

That poster is hanging in my shop.

[Art Anderson]

Uh, in WW-II, the Germans were making gasoline out of coal.

Art

[Harry P.]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_fuel

Let's do it!

I mean synthetic gasoline made in a lab, and not based on fossil fuels. As in, "we can make as much of it as we want without relying on the availability of fossil fuels like oil and coal."

[Joe Handley]

Not completely oil free, but my 200 is one of approximately 18 million registered in the US and the industry is working to increase the amount of renewable energy sources used in place of any "fossil" based energy sources to produce Ethanol.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Joe Handley

[Fat Brian]

Synthetic oil is still made from components of regular crude oil, it just has man made polymers and chemicals added to it to increase it's heat tolerance and help it keep it's lubricity at high temperatures. It's not like they're creating oil from something that's not oil in the first place, it's a not so slight abuse of the word "synthetic".

Edited April 1, 2015 by Fat Brian

[Harry P.]

Synthetic oil is still made from components of regular crude oil, it just has man made polymers and chemicals added to it to increase it's heat tolerance and help it keep it's lubricity at high temperatures. It's not like they're creating oil from something that's not oil in the first place, it's a not so slight abuse of the word "synthetic".

Hmmm... that explains a lot! I always thought that "synthetic oil" was a man-made "oil" that wasn't petroleum based.

[Joe Handley]

I kinda figured it was more along the lines of What Brian said, been nice if they could make oils from more natural sources, but since one of them is Hemp, and is on the same list of no grow plants as Marijuana.........that won't happen until things changes.

[Mike_G]

Henry Ford made a car that had body panels made of a sort of hemp-based plastic and burned hemp oil

[Joe Handley]

Henry Ford made a car that had body panels made of a sort of hemp-based plastic and burned hemp oil

From what I understand, Ford and William Durant of GM were both ethanol proponents, Ford enough so thst the Model T was the first mass produced flex fuel vehicle as well as set up classes to teach their owners how to make their own hemp based ethanol to fuel their new Model T's with.

[Deano]

Not completely oil free, but my 200 is one of approximately 18 million registered in the US and the industry is working to increase the amount of renewable energy sources used in place of any "fossil" based energy sources to produce Ethanol.

I dunno, I still think trading our food supply for a fuel supply is, um, otnay ootay ightbray, if you get my meaning.

[OneTrickPony]

The raw materials have to come from somewhere. Gasoline is a hydrocarbon so somewhere you need to get hydrogen and carbon as basic building blocks along with other trace elements.

Unless you are an alchemist and can transmute one element into another. If so, I would be making gold instead of gas!

[Joe Handley]

I dunno, I still think trading our food supply for a fuel supply is, um, otnay ootay ightbray, if you get my meaning.

Food loss isn't huge, IIRC, about 2/3 of the corn used goes into animal feed and in a box of Corn Flakes, it's typically around $.10-$.25 difference per box........vs what other energy sources used to creage and distribute the stuff adds to the price, executive pay probably affects that price more than actual base food ptices. In reality, just about any cellulose can be used to make it, basically any plant based sugars are converted to alcohol and cooking fuels can range from natural gas, to combustable plant materials, I even read somewhere that manure is being looked at as a fuel to do the needed cooking.

Don't know if anything ever came of it, but weren't there groups experimenting with using alge to create either ethanol or biodiesel?

[Fat Brian]

There is an algae that excretes biodiesel after it breaks down whatever it's food source is.

[Joe Handley]

There is an algae that excretes biodiesel after it breaks down whatever it's food source is.

That's the one, what ever happened with it? Here was supposed to be a facility built somewhere in the South, but a Congressman or Senator got in it's way for "eviromental" reasonas.

[Aaronw]

If they can make synthetic oil, why can't they make synthetic gasoline?

The "synthetic" motor oil you can buy at the auto parts store isn't all that different from normal motor oil. It is not synthetic in the way you sudgget that it doesn't come from petrolium oil. Both synthetic and regular motor oils are made from petroleum oil. The difference is the synthetic oil is refined differently resulting in a much more uniform or pure product. Synthetic oil is broken down to its base components and reformed into a very specific liquid, vs simply refined into a liquid of more or less similar molecules.

Non petrolium based gas and diesel is possible, it just currently isn't cost effective vs. conventional means.

A few years ago I did a project at school looking at various bioconversion processes available. I was coming from the angle of disposing of forest waste related to logging or fuels reduction (fire breaks) projects. There are a lot of options available to create energy from other than oil, most carbon based materials, vegetation, animal byproducts, and even a lot of garbage can be used.

Some of the methods I looked at were as simple as burning the materials to create heat which is used to create electricity, but some can convert these materials into an oil like substance that can then be refined into diesel or gasoline. Most of these bioconversion processes are related and create 3 main products, bio oil (a thick oily substance resembling crude oil), charcoal and syngas (a natural gas like fuel consisting mainly of hydrogen, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide). The target product is where the processes differ to increase production of the more desirable substance the non desired products are often burned to power the process. The charcoal can also be sold as a soil amendment. The simplest of these go back to prehistoric times, the Ancient Egyptians made bio oil from wood which they used as a sealant on their boats.

During WW2 there were more than 1 million vehicles being powered by wood and coal. They had an onboard gasification system which created a syngas, the vehicles required similar modifications to cars that run on propane.

There was a company making diesel fuel from turkey and chicken processing plant scraps. They were marginally cost effective while fuel prices were at peak and they could get the waste at minimal cost. The processors figured out they could charge more for their scrap instead of paying to have it hauled off, gas prices also came down, the combination resulted in the company being unprofitable and they went out of business. They were also having issues of people not wanting their plant near them.

There are similar projects using algae.

Cost is just one issue, there are a lot of politics involved as well which make it hard for these projects to get funding.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Aaronw

[Aaronw]

I dunno, I still think trading our food supply for a fuel supply is, um, otnay ootay ightbray, if you get my meaning.

Lots of options beyond food stocks, in fact many of the non food based sources are superior, corn is actually a poor choice. The corn lobby has a loud voice though, like I said there are a lot of politics getting in the way.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Aaronw

[Harry P.]

like I said there are a lot of politics getting in the way.

I get the feeling that's the single biggest obstacle to progress.

[ranma]

Ol' Man Ford wanted to use soy bean made plastics for car panels, He even demostrated the the amount of abuse the trunk lid could take. Now Case IH is using panels on their tractors and combines to reduce weight and add longer lastic panels that don't rust. They even proved how derable the panels are by droping bowling balls on them. Flexed and no scratches.

[Quick GMC]

Not completely oil free, but my 200 is one of approximately 18 million registered in the US and the industry is working to increase the amount of renewable energy sources used in place of any "fossil" based energy sources to produce Ethanol.

E85 as a fuel is a good concept, but the whole package is faulty. The equipment it takes to process pollutes, it costs too much money to grow crops to create enough E85 to become our #1 fuel source, etc. It's burns cleaner and is much more resistant to detonation than gas though.

[Joe Handley]

E85 as a fuel is a good concept, but the whole package is faulty. The equipment it takes to process pollutes, it costs too much money to grow crops to create enough E85 to become our #1 fuel source, etc. It's burns cleaner and is much more resistant to detonation than gas though.

Keep in mind, the process to find and refine oil into the products we use every day isn't exactly clean either There are other sources besides corn or just other food sources that can be used to produce the stuff. Just in the Chicago area, we had big invasion of Asian Longhorn/Ash Borer Beetles that forced the cutting down and destruction of a huge number of trees in Northern Illinois. They could have made quite a bit of fuel out of the trees that were cut down, not to mention the ones that have been lost in both winter and summer storms just in the few years I've been running the stuff in my 200. When you start looking at grass that is cut along the roadways, residental yard waste, waste papers, other garbage that would typically sit in a landfill. It wouldn't fully replace oil, but would ease the demand on oil reserves.............and cut into profits of certain big industries that don't like to share or play fair. Edited April 2, 2015 by Joe Handley

[Aaronw]

E85 as a fuel is a good concept, but the whole package is faulty. The equipment it takes to process pollutes, it costs too much money to grow crops to create enough E85 to become our #1 fuel source, etc. It's burns cleaner and is much more resistant to detonation than gas though.

That is because corn is a poor choice for fuel. Corn is barely better than 1 to 1 fuel consumed in production to fuel produced. Other stocks produce far better ratios, Brazil is using sugar cane which produces 8 gallons of ethanol per gallon of fuel consumed in production.

[Pete J.]

Consider this: there are literally hundreds of "fuels" that can be run in internal and external engines to create propulsion besides carbon based fossil fuels. Each has it's own advantages and disadvantages. The primary advantages of gasoline are that it is that there is a vast distribution network in place, it is relatively cheap to produce, the ratio of propulsion per weight/volume is very good, onboard storage and metering is relatively simple and it is a well developed technology. There are other fuels that will work, but they are at a sever disadvantage in at least one or more of the prior advantages.

A good example of this is the Electric car. It doesn't work in many long distance applications because it's storage is at a disadvantage, it takes for ever to refuel, and refueling stations are not common. Hydrogen would be a great option, except that the Hindenburg made everyone terrified of it and the distribution system would be horrifically expensive to create. Alcohol is great, except it has a corrosion issue with the water component and it has a low ratio of output per gallon. The list goes on. Gasoline is just too firmly entrenched to replace easily. It would be nice, but it is not.

[1930fordpickup]

That is because corn is a poor choice for fuel. Corn is barely better than 1 to 1 fuel consumed in production to fuel produced. Other stocks produce far better ratios, Brazil is using sugar cane which produces 8 gallons of ethanol per gallon of fuel consumed in production.

Not sure about the sugar cane after the run through the Plant but the corn is used for Cattle/Pig feed over here by me. I have heard that it was Henry Ford that sold the ethanol movement to South America, with his big push for the Soybean being raised in the US for uses like plastic and other things. This is back in the 30's and look how little we have moved toward a better option.