Curious; why are there so few tuner classes at a lot of model shows/contests?

[jbwelda]

but its a vicious cycle: no one shows up because there is no class, but there is no class because no one shows up.

personally I think the people who run the contest/show should LEAD the way and offer the class. if no one shows up, then save the award for next time or something. but the very fact that there IS interest in "tuners" in real life as well as models tells you there IS a demand, you just have to figure out how to tap that demand. if you put out flyers maybe mention the class or even highlight the class. get those people out of the woodwork. in fact you might even inspire some old timers to either bring their built tuners they have built (I think many do cross genres, I know I do) or even inspire them to look into building one, seeing how their old school techniques transfer to them.

in other words, foresee the future and PROMOTE the class, at least for a couple years and by then you would imagine it would be self sustaining, and maybe draw a few people into the show/contest who might not otherwise attend or participate.

I wouldn't even bother entering a tuner in a street rod or something similar class. the very name reveals the prejudices that will be inherent to the judging and the judges probably won't even look twice at a tuner in the class...to them the class is defined by old time amerikan iron and anything else is pretty much relegated to the status of a joke.

jb

[niteowl7710]

I do belong to a club, and we do put on a very successful show. Since the "judging" is People's Choice, the club members and various sponsors will award specific Best of This, That or the Other thing.

Because what I've found from years of attending shows, and even from within the debate we had about what the theme should be for our show in 2015 is that clubs and club members tend to champion the things they build. If no one in the club builds "tuners", "exotics", or "imports" or however the class is worded, then they tend to presume that NO one does, and possibly worse yet they hold some of the views espoused here about young punks, and the generic disdain of anything Foreign.

You usually only have to attend a show once to get a vibe of how open minded the host club (and thereby judging and class setting) is towards things built after 1972, assembled at a point of origin outside the U.S. To Jonathan's point about not bringing tuners to display, if you get the gist that your genre of preference isn't welcome since it doesn't meet the compatibility requirements of the close minded club/judges, why on Earth would you enter? There's nothing more "entertaining" than hearing the judges make snide remarks about a model based on SOLELY on the SUBJECT MATTER of the entry without regard to craftsmanship or skill of the builder.

[Tonioseven]

Excellent point.

[jbwelda]

>There's nothing more "entertaining" than hearing the judges make snide remarks about a model based on

>SOLELY on the SUBJECT MATTER of the entry without regard to craftsmanship or skill of the builder.

if I were ever to hear anything like this I would be greatly tempted to loudly and publicly question that "judges" credentials to be judging anything at all. and I would make sure the sponsor of the contest heard about it. there is no excuse for that sort of behavior or that sort of prejudgment coming from a supposedly impartial judge.

depending on how aggro I felt that day, and how he responded to my challenge to his impartiality, the dude might leave with a bloody nose too. and I might end up in the graybar motel. wouldn't be the first time though never over something so petty.

jb

[Tom Geiger]

I've been away this week so I thought I'd comment on the last few posts...

I agree with JB that clubs that put out a Tuner/Sport class one year, with no advance notice, and then proclaim it 'didn't work' when nobody knew about it in the first place. They never gave it a chance. Maybe there were guys who saw it and brought models the second year, only to find the category gone. In best practice, they would have partnered with interested parties ahead of time to assure that there would be models in the category. Once you have a little flame, it can grow into a fire!

I also agree with your comments on judges (or the modeling public) making snide remarks about models based on subject matter. Heck, judges need to be on their best behavior to appear impartial and represent the show / club, but we all know there's folks who just don't know how to act in public. In my early days of entering contests, late 1980s-early 1990s, I caught plenty of flack for building mind stretching subjects like a '32 Ford with a VW chassis under it, and gasp! junkers and beaters. I had judges make those snide remarks to my face. Things like they 'disqualified - didn't even judge' my '32 Ford because "it was disrespectful to Ford"! Never mind that it was probably the cleanest build in their Street Rod category. I once had a judge tell me my '59 Chevy convertible beater was "a waste of a kit". So I put these cars away. About 10 years later a buddy-0-mine urged me to bring the '59 out again. I showed it that season and won something at every show! Minds had expanded quite a bit in those 10 years. Today I tell this story about these two models and people don't even believe it. But the thinking was that narrow 25 years ago.

And about judges... one of the big gaps in our hobby is that we don't have any overseeing board that sets judging standards, qualifies judges etc. Every show is a c-rap shoot, sometimes the same show year to year. With no qualifications, often judges are just club members who got roped into it, the guy with the enormous ego, or even attendees they've grabbed at the last minute. I got out of competing a long time ago since it really didn't mean anything. Other hobbies (Antique cars -AACA, Stamp collecting - APS) have national / international standards and judges who have apprenticed for years before being allowed to judge. For instance, I used to display a stamp research project, and I could go to any show anywhere and my points range would be near the same. I would earn a silver award, didn't matter if it was New York City or San Francisco.

But back to the subject at hand. Yes, there are tons of younger modelers out there that we haven't invited into the family. I talk with a guy (who is one of us) who works part time in a hobby shop in NJ. He tells me that he gets plenty of young guys in the shop. He says they don't complain about price, they are happy to buy a Tamiya kit for $60 and then spend another $60 on supplies and Pegasus after market stuff. Too bad we haven't pulled them all into our hobby circuit, they are the future!

[DirtModeler]

I think

I've been away this week so I thought I'd comment on the last few posts...

I agree with JB that clubs that put out a Tuner/Sport class one year, with no advance notice, and then proclaim it 'didn't work' when nobody knew about it in the first place. They never gave it a chance. Maybe there were guys who saw it and brought models the second year, only to find the category gone. In best practice, they would have partnered with interested parties ahead of time to assure that there would be models in the category. Once you have a little flame, it can grow into a fire!

I also agree with your comments on judges (or the modeling public) making snide remarks about models based on subject matter. Heck, judges need to be on their best behavior to appear impartial and represent the show / club, but we all know there's folks who just don't know how to act in public. In my early days of entering contests, late 1980s-early 1990s, I caught plenty of flack for building mind stretching subjects like a '32 Ford with a VW chassis under it, and gasp! junkers and beaters. I had judges make those snide remarks to my face. Things like they 'disqualified - didn't even judge' my '32 Ford because "it was disrespectful to Ford"! Never mind that it was probably the cleanest build in their Street Rod category. I once had a judge tell me my '59 Chevy convertible beater was "a waste of a kit". So I put these cars away. About 10 years later a buddy-0-mine urged me to bring the '59 out again. I showed it that season and won something at every show! Minds had expanded quite a bit in those 10 years. Today I tell this story about these two models and people don't even believe it. But the thinking was that narrow 25 years ago.

And about judges... one of the big gaps in our hobby is that we don't have any overseeing board that sets judging standards, qualifies judges etc. Every show is a c-rap shoot, sometimes the same show year to year. With no qualifications, often judges are just club members who got roped into it, the guy with the enormous ego, or even attendees they've grabbed at the last minute. I got out of competing a long time ago since it really didn't mean anything. Other hobbies (Antique cars -AACA, Stamp collecting - APS) have national / international standards and judges who have apprenticed for years before being allowed to judge. For instance, I used to display a stamp research project, and I could go to any show anywhere and my points range would be near the same. I would earn a silver award, didn't matter if it was New York City or San Francisco.

But back to the subject at hand. Yes, there are tons of younger modelers out there that we haven't invited into the family. I talk with a guy (who is one of us) who works part time in a hobby shop in NJ. He tells me that he gets plenty of young guys in the shop. He says they don't complain about price, they are happy to buy a Tamiya kit for $60 and then spend another $60 on supplies and Pegasus after market stuff. Too bad we haven't pulled them all into our hobby circuit, they are the future!

I think we should take the judges out of it.. egos shouldn't be at play in these things.. give each person who walks in the door 5 tickets, and let them put them into the jar next to the 5 models they like the most.. most tickets win..

I don't think 'technical excellence' or 'most authentic build' should matter.. if it looks cool.. it looks cool.. that should be what matters.. it shouldn't matter how you got there.

[Tom Geiger]

^{_{The Diversified Modelerz had their show this past Saturday. I couldn't be there because I was away but from the photos and videos on their Facebook page, the show was a resounding success. This is a group of young guys who are into modern subjects. I saw many of our herd, the aging hairy mammals in the photos, but most important for our hobby, there were a bunch of young folks I don't know in the photos too... and I know everyone in the hobby in NJ. That means there are a lot more modelers than our small group. And that's a good thing!}}

[Helix]

Antonio, I'm 50 in December and I don't mind Tuners, have plans to build a few soon

Ray

[1930fordpickup]

Most humans are afraid of change. It is a knee jerk reaction to resist it . I say bring the tuners or whatever you call them. Not my taste but this Hobby needs younger people to keep it going . Tom is spot on as are the positive comments about tuners classes. Just so you know I do not like them or plan on building one, they rank with any tri year Chevy to me. But I am with it enough to know not we need more people at the shows not less. They take the same skill to build as any musclecar or street rod.

Edited October 29, 2014 by 1930fordpickup

[ZTony8]

We've had this same debate in our area.Some of our contest organizers won't put out the signs for the tuner or donk or dub or lowrider classes.My feeling is,like Mr.Just,put the class signage out and if no one enters then save the prizes for another day.I think that for our area anyway(metro Detroit) that the tuners, lowriders,donks, and dubs should all be one class since participation in all those categories is relatively low.The possible exception would be the lowriders since that class fills mostly with slammed down full size domestic rides on larger than stock rims.

[willimo]

If you want to address this issue dismissively, the easiest thing to say is "those guys that are building them, are not going to shows and entering their builds." And you can further lighten your critical load by not asking why those guys are not going to shows and entering their builds. I think the last couple of pages have said what the rest of the thread has so clearly demonstrated - it's because of the attitudes toward these cars. I am right there with a few of you and am applauding the guys of Diversified Scalerz; good on them for getting together and setting up their own show. That's great! But is everyone else blind to the problem that this illustrates? Model building in general is already a small, niche hobby. How many of us go to hobby shops that keep their lights on with plastic models? None. In the last couple decades I've watched the lucrative RC market grow and the plastic model corner shrink in every hobby shop I've regularly gone to. Car modeling is even smaller and even more niche. Can we afford to divide up and have one show for primarily American cars and one for primarily imports? No way. There is just no way that this hobby can thrive if it gets more and more fragmented.

[ As a kind of aside - because this touches on something else I've been seeing - it's really strange to me that companies like Revell and AMT have felt as though they have seriously courted the tuner market with their efforts. The AMT F&F Supra was a joke, and while the Revell Civics and Integra are decent, they clearly aren't aimed at adult and serious modelers with their grossly wrong wheels, engine choices, and trims. No 96-00 Civic hatches came with sunroofs, or that engine in the US. No 92-95 Coupes were trimmed as an Si, and this kit and the Eclipse did not come with factory front and rear bumpers. And, to top it off, because some of us punk kids are real, real sticklers, not only are they the wrong scale to fit on the shelf with the rest of our Japanese subjects, but they're undersized even for 1:25. Don't get me wrong, I built a pile of these before I was skilled enough to make it worthwhile cutting the hood open on my Fujimi Civic hatch and stratchbuilding a motor and engine bay (yes, really). But if they are going to say, "Well, those kits don't sell," they could have at least made a full hearted effort. Too bad. ]

It would be great if model clubs would promote tuner or exotic or import classes - I have seen a few where the annual theme was somesuch and they seemed to do well - and it wouldn't take much effort. If you're afraid of budget or prizes, make it an exhibition class, and see what happens. Or, do like all the SCCA clubs I've autocrossed with do (who were faced with a very similar crisis of new kinds of cars with new kinds of modifications showing up without any class to compete in competitively). Make classes for everything and give trophies out based on attendance - less than four entries? Only one prize. More? Three. None? Leave it open for next time.

Again, it's great that Diversified Scalerz are out there doing their own thing, but are we really so ambivalent to the health of the hobby that we're willing to split up and marginalize? I don't think so. Now let me take some pictures and post some stuff so I'm not solely participating here in this thread.

Edited November 5, 2014 by willimo

[Tonioseven]

These were the majority of what I entered in the most recent contest I attended. Curbside/slammer. I'll still take what I build and enter. There were a few negative comments overheard about them but whatever. I'm not a youngster but I build what I like and I'll continue to enter contests with my builds. Tom Geiger and Willimo have pretty much hit the nail on the head as well as a few others and I appreciate all of the responses. Don't worry, I may show up at your contest with 20 import builds; I don't care about trophies or awards but I'll do it just to prove a point. Keep on building. Also, I met a guy that also builds import models; he said that he didn't realize that there more builders that shared his interests in import models. I assured him that we're out there.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Tonioseven

[Custom Mike]

Car modeling is even smaller and even more niche. Can we afford to divide up and have one show for primarily American cars and one for primarily imports? No way. There is just no way that this hobby can thrive if it gets more and more fragmented.

Bingo William, you absolutely nailed it with this statement! I have an IPMS club (Almost 100% Military builders) nearby that asked me years ago to attend their annual contests, because they had no car modelers showing up. There's still a small amount that show, but it's growing every year, so it's working. The only thing I haven't built yet is a weathered model or a big rig. Every year I bring Tuners, Muscle, Customs, Classics, Euro Sports cars, whatever I've built, just to show that it's all welcome! We, as automotive builders, are a very small minority in the modeling world, and cannot afford to turn someone away because they don't build what we build. If it has four wheels and a motor, it's good enough for me!

[Tonioseven]

I can make sure there's enough entries for an import class...