Bob Turner2 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 (edited) So I stirred the pot and get called out ....as I expected. I guess my point was that instead of complaining on a forum about a kit that has yet to be released, why not contact the manufacturer and offer your opinion of what is wrong with the soon to be released kit so they can get it right? I am not blind to see some possible flaws with the kit but do understand there are limitations with what can be done when scaling down to make a kit and realize some sacrifices in accuracy get made. Of all of the experts who routinely critique all kits and their flaws, I wonder how many actually have experience in a manufacturing environment similar to model kits? How many understand the model kit process? Go ahead and fire away, can't wait to hear the responses................... I can address the first part of your comment easily; I did just that, & it was this very company about the flaws in this very kit. What was their response? I basically got my head ripped off by the anonymous replier & was told they didn't want my business. Now, I didn't mention that in my first post because it didn't change the fact that this model is fundamentally flawed & inaccurate, nor did I want anyone to accuse me of bias against the company due to the reaction I got for daring to be critical of something they did wrong. I still hope that was just the reactions of one person there & not the attitude of the company itself because I have enjoyed building several of their other kits. It's in the realm of automotive subjects that they fall short. My personal take on their presence on FB & forums like this is so they can gets lots of cheerleading for their products. They seem to quash any negative commentary about what they create on their FB page from what people have told me & judging from my experience they seem to not want any actual & relevant feedback. Second part of your comment; there is a difference between some "sacrifices" made in scale & tooling up something so inaccurate in so many places. Other manufacturers get it right consistently, time after time. Moebius & Revell seem to fail to do so. Consistently. Time after time. Obviously there's a pattern here with both companies & the design & or tooling that they do. Perhaps it's communication issues between the people in the USA & the ones in China that actually cut & run the tooling. Third part of your comment is self defeating, but I'll address it as well. It doesn't matter if we know of the limitations of the manufacturing process or not, simply because since other companies get it right consistently, (remember that), & while dealing with the same limitations. Obviously the problem lies within the company at some point. Just where I don't know, but as stated above I suspect it's in design or tooling. Edited July 16, 2014 by Bob Turner2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Turner2 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Those who complain the most build the least! Some folks hobby is "whining on message boards". Nice to see you know exactly what I, (& others), are really doing. Wanting a kit to look more like the 1/1 vehicle it is supposed to represent is whining? It seems that some folks hobby is complaining about those that have a different, (& factually based at that), opinion from their perceptions. You can call it whining all that you like. Flawed is flawed & the test shots & other photos I've seen show a serious step down from the masters first created for the tooling design. Something was lost in translation between those & anyone who looks can clearly see the differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Turner2 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 What issues (other than the Hudson's incorrect rear wheel skirt location lines and the buggy 55 Chrysler headlights being much better once they were molded into the 56's body) have Moebius fixed once a kit has made it into production? It's one the things (maybe the thing) that bugs me the most about this board, we take Revell to task for things because we think they're not reading (they are) but we blow smoke up Moebius' backside because they have an active presence on the board? I don't get it. Is there a bit of a double standard there, or is it just me? I'm thinking it could be fact that Moebius has a presence here, sharing test shots & the like & Revell doesn't. Because of that it likely makes people here feel privy to "insider information", (or so they think), so they look more kindly upon them than they do Revell, for that reason. Not me. I don't care who is here, if it's wrong, it's wrong. Bottom line. Also note that this time Moebius got farther along in the process before exposing this kit, perhaps so they wouldn't have to go back & fix all the errors in this kit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemodeler Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I can address the first part of your comment easily; I did just that, & it was this very company about the flaws in this very kit. What was their response? I basically got my head ripped off by the anonymous replier & was told they didn't want my business. Now, I didn't mention that in my first post because it didn't change the fact that this model is fundamentally flawed & inaccurate, nor did I want anyone to accuse me of bias against the company due to the reaction I got for daring to be critical of something they did wrong. I still hope that was just the reactions of one person there & not the attitude of the company itself because I have enjoyed building several of their other kits. It's in the realm of automotive subjects that they fall short. Interesting that they would reply like that, not a way to build good relations. I would hope that they re-think their position or the person who responded. My personal take on their presence on FB & forums like this is so they can gets lots of cheerleading for their products. They seem to quash any negative commentary about what they create on their FB page from what people have told me & judging from my expetrience they seem to not want any actual & relevant feedback. We as modelers want our voices heard and I think them having a presence helps in that regard. None of us like to be criticized but it is a reality of living in this world. Second part of your comment; there is a difference between some "sacrifices" made in scale & tooling up something so inaccurate in so many places. Other manufacturers get it right consistently, time after time. Moebius & Revell seem to fail to do so. Consistently. Time after time. Obviously there's a pattern here with both companies & the design & or tooling that they do. Perhaps it's communication issues between the people in the USA & the ones in China that actually cut & run the tooling. I did not realize that Moebius and Revell kits had such issues, consistently. I am aware of some problems with Revell kits ( ex. '69 Nova, '90 Mustang) in recent years and while some were fixed, others were not. I am sure budgets have something to do with how many revisions can be made before a decision to "run with it" is rendered. Third part of your comment is self defeating, but I'll address it as well. It doesn't matter if we know of the limitations of the manufacturing process or not, simply because since other companies get it right consistently, (remember that), & while dealing with the same limitations. Obviously the problem lies within the company at some point. Just where I don't know, but as stated above I suspect it's in design or tooling. Can you share which companies consistently get it right? Not being a jerk about it but I was under the impression that all kits had their shortcomings and while some companies are better than others, they all have stubbed their toes on kits. You state that it doesn't matter if you know the process or not, but the problem lies in the company, you don't know where it is at, and you think some companies don't seem to suffer the same fate. That seems to be a bit contradictory to me but then again what do I know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Barrow Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I can address the first part of your comment easily; I did just that, & it was this very company about the flaws in this very kit. What was their response? I basically got my head ripped off by the anonymous replier & was told they didn't want my business. Now, I didn't mention that in my first post because it didn't change the fact that this model is fundamentally flawed & inaccurate, nor did I want anyone to accuse me of bias against the company due to the reaction I got for daring to be critical of something they did wrong. I still hope that was just the reactions of one person there & not the attitude of the company itself because I have enjoyed building several of their other kits. It's in the realm of automotive subjects that they fall short. Sorry, calling BS on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt T. Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 (edited) martinfan5, on 14 Jul 2014 - 6:47 PM, said: Well, I'm now on the fence about my purchase plan, based on this photo comparison. Edited July 16, 2014 by Matt T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Kourouklis Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Sorry, calling BS on that one.I've seen that exchange, Brett. The Moebius rep did NOT acquit herself (himself?) well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Turner2 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 (edited) Sorry, calling BS on that one. Call it what you wish, here's the reply I got back, in it's entirety: Please do not reply or email us ever again, we do not need to be harassed, especially since no one is forcing you to buy, look at or build our products. Edited July 16, 2014 by Bob Turner2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Turner2 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Well, I'm now on the fence about my purchase plan, based on this photo comparison. I understand. I could fix the too thin rear door pillars, but correcting the hood/grille desgin & the windshield are beyond the abilities of most of us I fear. The rest of the kit is acceptable or can be corrected, from what I see, it's those two areas that are glaring right at me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Barrow Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I've seen that exchange, Brett. The Moebius rep did NOT acquit herself (himself?) well. Call it what you wish, here's the reply I got back, in it's entirety: Please do not reply or email us ever again, we do not need to be harassed, especially since no one is forcing you to buy, look at or build our products. Yeeouch... Was that the first reply, or had there been an exchange? What did the email(s) you sent them say? That was Moebius? Shocked... As someone who does customer service, that is appalling. I just called BS based on the fact that I've been exchanging emails with folks inside this business for years and I've never gotten an email from anyone at any of the companies that wasn't formatted with a signature with name, email, phone #, address, etc... Could have been someone from Doll & Hobby, Frank's wife's Barbie Doll business that handles their distribution. (yep, checked, I've got some anonymous doll-hobby.com emails). Anyway, would have been better to just not respond, or respond with a generic "thanks for your interest in our products" type response. I'd like to see the other side of that if possible, just to see how I would have handled it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Turner2 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Yeeouch... Was that the first reply, or had there been an exchange? What did the email(s) you sent them say? That was Moebius? Shocked... As someone who does customer service, that is appalling. I just called BS based on the fact that I've been exchanging emails with folks inside this business for years and I've never gotten an email from anyone at any of the companies that wasn't formatted with a signature with name, email, phone #, address, etc... Could have been someone from Doll & Hobby, Frank's wife's Barbie Doll business that handles their distribution. (yep, checked, I've got some anonymous doll-hobby.com emails). Anyway, would have been better to just not respond, or respond with a generic "thanks for your interest in our products" type response. I'd like to see the other side of that if possible, just to see how I would have handled it. That was the first & only reply to my initial email. i didn't bother following up with them after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclescott58 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 The windshield and grille do look wrong to me too. But again, wasn't this model built from a test shot? The windshield doesn't bother me as much as the grille. At the same time, if this what the finished product looks like, I'll still be buying one. Why? Because it's closer than any other '69 Ford pickup model out there. And it's really no worst than the pickup truck kits we were offered in the past. Plus I've heard everybody complain about Revell's '70 'Cuda kit. You know what? I like it. It looks pretty good to me. And I've like the Moebius' kits I've bought so far. Are they prefect? No. But, they are very, very good. And their new Ford pickup, despite the flaws looks very good to me. By the way, my father use to have a '69 Ford 3/4 ton long box pickup. I really didn't care for it. It road rough. The steering wheel was too large and close to you. With gas tank in the cab, it took a while to get the cab comfortable in the winter. With the heater going in front, and the cold gas behind you, it took a while for everything to balance out comfort wise. His truck had the "Sport" package. Nicer than the plain Ford pickup, but still pretty plain. But still, after all of my complaining, I'll be buying the Moebius Ford pickup trucks when they come out. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Barrow Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 That was the first & only reply to my initial email. i didn't bother following up with them after that. What was the initial email? You can PM it to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Here it is compared to a Motormax diecast. I know I'm comparing a model to a model, but the angle of the diecast is the closest I could find to the angle of the model. The windshields look very different. Make of it what you will. Maybe they're both wrong... but obviously they can't both be right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Geiger Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 With gas tank in the cab, it took a while to get the cab comfortable in the winter. With the heater going in front, and the cold gas behind you, it took a while for everything to balance out comfort wise. Interesting Scott. I never thought of that. Obvious that I've never owned a pickup in that configuration, but I never was too keen on the idea of sharing the cabin with 20 gallons of gasoline! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrKerry Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 (edited) Pic of the real thing, 68 truck in photo.. Edited July 16, 2014 by DrKerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclescott58 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Here it is compared to a Motormax diecast. I know I'm comparing a model to a model, but the angle of the diecast is the closest I could find to the angle of the model. The windshields look very different. Make of it what you will. Maybe they're both wrong... but obviously they can't both be right! Right or wrong, I'll take the Moebius over the Motormax diecast after seeing the picture you just posted Harry. The Moebius model is looking better after seeing that! Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclescott58 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 (edited) You know I've been think more about the grille on the '69 Moebius Ford truck. At first I didn't think it looked right. It is missing the Ford medallion. As in this picture below. Then it dawned on me. The low trim level Ford trucks in 1969 did not have that emblem. And look more like the Moebius model. The Moebius '69 is suppose be a plain base level Ford. Right? And the '71 will be an XLT. So the Moebius '69 is OK after all. Scott Edited July 16, 2014 by unclescott58 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I think the problem with the windshield is actually in the brow above it. It's too rounded in the middle and extends forward too far. That's just my opinion. That could be a do-able fix. Of course, then you have to make a new windshield and the gasket detail. The roof desperately needs to be domed in each direction. No doubt about that. The grille may just be mounted too high. Not sure on that. Sean is a great builder. So, I really can't see that being the problem. Something is definitely wrong in that area. If the grille were moved down, it wouldn't fit the fender correctly. To me, on the door frame/rear pillar, the line for the door frame needs to be filled in, rescribe it behind the drip rail using it as a guide, remove the old drip rail and add a new one behind the new door line. That will make the door frame thicker and the rear pillar thinner. Then one could adjust the opening accordingly. There a few other things. But, some people are already acting like someone has called their wife a bad name. Why do people take it personally if someone points out obvious flaws in a kit? As far as not being able to judge a model by photos? B.S.! I do it on every model I build. I've seen lots of things in photos that I didn't see while holding the model in my hands. Even the worst photos will show things the naked eye won't catch. I consider Sean to be one of the (if not the) best there is at taking photos of a model. So, whatever shows in the photos is there without a doubt in my mind. I would like to see a good level side shot and a close up of the front end. I think I could fix one to where I would be satisfied with it. It's just that I hate to have to spend so much time fixing things that I shouldn't have to. It kinda takes all the fun out of building a kit for me. Call me whatever. But, when I buy a new kit. I expect to be able to sit down, sand the mold lines out, primer, paint and assemble it if I choose to build it that way. I don't think that's asking too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Kourouklis Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 (edited) Absence of the crest ain't a problem at all. But the spacing of the vertical grille bars is off, and the headlight nacelles seem pretty large for scale, with a more deeply tunneled late '70s look. On Sean's model, they give the impression of either lining right up or even possibly overlapping inside the edges of the raised hood section, where they're pretty well outside those lines in the two 1:1 pics above. Off-putting as it is for its absence of finesse and precision, the Motormax nacelles actually seem somewhat closer - for size and relative depth anyway, though they have some problems of their own. Edited July 16, 2014 by Chuck Kourouklis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I think the problem with the windshield is actually in the brow above it. It's too rounded in the middle and extends forward too far. To me, on the door frame/rear pillar, the line for the door frame needs to be filled in, rescribe it behind the drip rail using it as a guide, remove the old drip rail and add a new one behind the new door line. That will make the door frame thicker and the rear pillar thinner. Then one could adjust the opening accordingly. Good eye. Those are the two most obvious mistakes, at least that's what jumped out at me right off the bat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Kourouklis Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Went after some of the more overhead shots I could find of 1:1s - the red one particularly goes some modest length to vindicating the Moebius curvature as seen on Sean's model, but the bottom one, not quite so much... pretty angle-dependent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S. Svendsen Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I'd like to mention that I added the included seperate upper chrome trim piece to the bottom of the hood which makes the grill on my test shot model look tall compared to the photos that have been posted. I believed it was supposed to be there on Custom Cab models, based on different photos I've seen but perhaps not. (One of you F-100 experts can correct me if you want.) Anyways, it can be left off which would more closely match the photos posted here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 ... pretty angle-dependent. It sure is! The curvature looks very different in various shots... I'd say Moebius got it fairly close. Maybe not perfect, but reasonably close. The door pillar, though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Kourouklis Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Here's the comparison that really has me wondering what happened: That's a pretty agreeable side day light opening on the pattern. WIndow frame and radii seem pretty good for scale there too. So how did we get to this DLO (side window outline) from those patterns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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