What It Takes To Be A Good Model Kit

[CAL]

I posted this in the state of the hobby thread, but it's a topic of its own really.

Somewhat of an after thought

It came to me in the form of a question.

It seems that no new tools have been very successful, not like they once were. Why is that. A number of companies tried and seem to have failed. What does the car modeler want?

AMT Pro Shop kits with PE and BMF... was it the subject? Cost of the kit? Or, what I feel, is they didn't quite get it perfect. I thought the PE was a little light and the BMF was junk. Good idea, poor follow through and execution.

AM McLarens... had all the detail that most could hope for. Again was it the subject? cost of the kit? The complexity? My only real complaint on the AM McLarens was the windscreen and the junky braided hoses, (an the subject didn't do much for me, personally).

Trumpeter They seem to have got beat up quite a bit for the lack of detail and accuracy for such an expensive kit.

So what is it that makes a good kit good?

It seems manufactures have failed at capturing the modeler’s interest.

What do you guys (and gals) expect to see in a kit, want to see in a kit? What is your ideal kit, not necessarily the particular car model, but the kit itself? How much would you pay for a good car kit? Pocher kits bring upwards around a $1000.00. Obviously that’s out of reach for most of us, and we don’t have that kind of space.

For me an ideal kit would be:

Engineered like a Tamiya kit, which is almost fool proof. However, I think they lack a little in details. I wouldn’t mind paying a little extra for a kit if it included everything you needed to detail it. I know that doesn’t appeal to everyone, but I wouldn’t mind seeing a decent PE set and CF decals where applicable.

I think something even cutting edge would be fascinating, while it probably is never going to happen I always thought it would be cool to have stamped steel car models. Maybe that’s what the hobby needs is something totally unique different and innovative.

Part II

What do you find annoying about models that already exist, but live with because there isn’t any other way around it.

Two things that always bothered me about model cars.

1. Glass. They make decent vacu-formed canopies for airplanes… why not for model cars? Personally kit glass never seems to fit well or looks right.

2. Seams that there is no way in the world you can fill and sand. I was working on a Revell Ferrari F2003 and had to back-shelve it because there are some atrocious seams I haven’t figured out how to get at.

Visible parting lines on chrome parts, which is a little less of a nuisance with Aclad II chrome, and places like Chrome Tech.

[The Creative Explorer]

I tend lately to go and buy kits of cars I like. I don't look so much anymore to the kit-brand. I had some very postive and negative experiences with almost any kit-brand, including Tamiya. Who produces some terrible kits too.

What does it for me is simply a lot of detailled parts. I go crazy with the Enthusiasts, but I do love to build de ProModelShop '57 Chevy too. And there are some more.

A nice fit would be desirable, but it is not going to stop me buying a kit.

[CAL]

I tend lately to go and buy kits of cars I like. I don't look so much anymore to the kit-brand. I had some very postive and negative experiences with almost any kit-brand, including Tamiya. Who produces some terrible kits too.

What does it for me is simply a lot of detailled parts. I go crazy with the Enthusiasts, but I do love to build de ProModelShop '57 Chevy too. And there are some more.

A nice fit would be desirable, but it is not going to stop me buying a kit.

I hear you. Tamiya Porsche 962 that were formerly slot car kits that they are now pawning off as display model kits come to mind.

I agree, detail, detail, detail does it for me, too. Parts count is another factor. I personally would rather build a so-so kit with 200 individual parts that a really good kit with 50. Even those not so good kits can turn out to be real show stoppers if you take the time to fix them up.

Fit and finish always helps.

[The Creative Explorer]

Fit helps, but it isn't the determing factor with me. The enthusiast kits are large in partcounts, but the fit isn't that good always.

I have a real big struggle with the Tamiya Tyrell kit, it sucks just big time.

So I just buy kits more on 'emotional' decissions, rather than rational. I know for example the 06 Camaro kit is a huge hit for AMT, I do live in the Portland area at the moment, and the kit is nowhere to be found.

[Darin Bastedo]

It's easier to tell what makes a good kit by looking at what has sold well;

Revell 1932 Ford kits... Lot's of options, easy to build and affordable.

Revell 1949 Merc Custom... Lot's of options, easy to build and affordable.

AMT 1957 Chevy (old tool)... Lot's of options, easy to build and affordable.

I'm starting to see a pattern here.

[Dr. Cranky]

I think the definition of good kits begin with the Monogram 50 Ford Pick Up, Revell 41 Willys, and the new Revell 49 Merc . . . it's a pleasure to open those kits and just admire the great work that went into them . . .

[Zoom Zoom]

I want whatever the subject is to be realistically represented. That doesn't necessarily mean it has to have 200+ parts, because I have built a number of great kits that were well under 100 parts...some even under 50 (especially some aftermarket resin kits, but I love the old curbside Monogram European cars they did in the '60's and '70's). It's not the parts count, but their quality. Is the body proportioned correctly? Are the wheels/tires accurate, as well as the stance? Tamiya curbsides are generally great; simple kits that go together w/o too many hassles, and just enough detail to look accurate-too bad they're raising the prices to the stratosphere with them as of late; the new 07 NISMO 350Z is $45 retail vs. the previous 350Z Track Edition's $29 retail. Newer Fujimi kits are also getting close to Tamiya levels of quality and detail, in some cases better; I've built a ton of their Porsche 911 Enthusiast kits, and they're a handful...sloppy parts fit, worn out molds, very fiddly/finicky to get to look right w/o a lot of hassle. Yet their Porsche Cayman is a very simple kit, but sit it next to an Enthusiast 911 and you can't tell that one can be built beautifully in 12 hours vs. the other's 20-30 hours or more to get even remotely as good as a finish. Newer kits from Aoshima/Hasegawa are also generally of great quality and hardly any engineering/design goofs.

Tamiya's Mercedes SLR is a good example of a modern kit w/some working features but simplified to some extent, with careful building I got all the opening panels to line up (most I've seen built the doors and hood don't quite fit), and the kit took between 20-25 hours to get it looking good (out of box). Just enough detail to keep me interested, not too much to get difficult or fiddly, and a bare minimum of assembly hassles. The Testors Dodge Charger; amazing how they got all the parts to fit so well! A few detail issues to deal with to make it look right, but they did pretty good. Revell's '49 Mercury, '32 Fords, Acura Integra...all great kits that look right, minimum of assembly hassles, and are popular w/a wide audience.

Basically, I want a particular kit to look good right from the box (then I can detail it further if I want). Regardless of whether it's a high or low parts count. Revell seems to hit the sweet spot the most between accuracy, cost, complexity, and subject matter. Nice that they rebox much of the Revell AG stuff for American consumption. I was pretty impressed building their 612 Scaglietti, and even more impressed w/the Superamerica. I'll try to tackle the 599 GTB soon; I've chosen that over the Fujimi due to it's cheap price and full detail. Fujimi's body and a few details are crisper. I've got the Audi R10 and hopefully soon will have the R8 coupe. Looking forward to building both of them. I'd be a bit lost w/o Revell USA and Revell AG, especially since my taste in cars is about as eclectic as it can get.

[CAL]

I concure, it's great to have Revell AG on the shelves.

[62rebel]

a good model, or a successful sales producer? the best selling kit of all time was the horrendous Dukes Charger; probably the worst rendition of a 69 Dodge ever committed to plastic.

for me, these criteria denote a good model, as follows:

an interesting subject. be it a hallmark car or an oddball, no difference.

accuracy. proportions, trim, scale fidelity. high parts count is not always a good indicator of accuracy! (Trumpeter...)

fit fit fit. i don't want it to be snap-together easy but who wants to spend an hour on each part cleaning flash, filing joints, etc?

parts for optional years/versions. in the heyday AMT and MPC kits often had two extra sets of custom wheels in addition to the stock version, and AMT Styline kits were the benchmark for customizing parts.

clear and precise instructions (side note: clear PART numbers on the sprues!) that aren't pictograms. tell me what the parts are, and correct colors for painting them! (side note 2: by now, I don't need to know what the distributor looks like, but for new modelers it would be a boon to give names to those detailed blobs of styrene!)

decals. (and a real nitpick on LICENSE plates to AMT; seems like every kit in the 80's and 90's had the same WOOO plates)

decals need to be ACCURATE, clear, and crisp; and my god they need to be in the appropriate SCALE. what use are sponsor decals in 1/20 when the kit is 1/25?

photo-etch parts; i seldom build to that level so i withhold judgment on these.

faithful box art! i do NOT want a photograph of the ACTUAL car on the box, unless there's a coupon in the box to get me one at the dealership. show me what i've bought!

one thing i keep reading: not ANOTHER 55 or 57 or such and such. i'm not a genius but if the manufacturers looked at the other guy's kit, or their own, and decided it was worth the risk to do yet another version, so be it. lot's of folks are fond of the old AMT 49 Merc, but revell has a winner in their new version. risk taken, bet won, IMHO.

sorry about the long winded refrain, but ask a question.... LOL!

[Darin Bastedo]

a good model, or a successful sales producer? the best selling kit of all time was the horrendous Dukes Charger; probably the worst rendition of a 69 Dodge ever committed to plastic.

In this case though it was the subject matter, not the quality of the kit that sold the General Lee. You could have sold as many if it were worse, and I doubt you would have sold a noticable amonunt more if it was better. Many of these were bought by people who probably never bought a model before, and probably never did again.

[Modelmartin]

Numero Uno - Subject Matter!! I don't care if that new Chevette 4-door with the woody decals on the side kit is the most accurate and well-engineered kit ever in the history of model cars - It is boring and I don't want it! Sure, the old 3 in 1 kits were great but if I don't want the subject it won't matter if it has 30 in 1 options.

Price is not a huge issue for me as long there is some value for the money spent. One of my favorite kits is the one I paid the most for! It is a 1/12 scale white metal kit of the Britten battle of the twins racebike. It is awesome and is one of favorite motorcycles. It was up around 2 bills.

I like accuracy and well-engineered kits as much as the next guy. It won't get me to buy it unless I want that car, too. The Tamiya Enzos are fabulous but I don't do Ferraris. I do have all Tamiya 1/24 Porsches in multiples! Even the happy-go-fun motorized cars! The new Revell Merc and 55 Chevs are great kits but I have not bought one of them because the subject is out of my area of interest. I may get one of the 58s when they come out because I like that car!

[The Creative Explorer]

-too bad they're raising the prices to the stratosphere with them as of late; the new 07 NISMO 350Z is $45 retail vs. the previous 350Z Track Edition's $29 retail.

Do not forget that the US-Dollar is the cause in this matter!

And buying those kits for those prices is still not thát bad.

In Europe the Nismo cost about 50-60 dollars. You guys in the states are very lucky with the prices. Especially the foreign kits. For 10 buck you have a kit.

The cheapest in Europe are from Revell AG and costs at least 25 dollars for the most simple.

Do you blame me stocking and shiiping more than 90 kits while being in the states?

[Zoom Zoom]

Do not forget that the US-Dollar is the cause in this matter!

Not entirely true. Tamiya raised the price in Japan by 500 yen, obviously that's not any cause of our weak dollar. I can still buy kits from Japan for only a few dollars more than before the dollar dropped vs. the yen; the increase in the yen's value over the dollar (about 5%) can nowhere near account for the 55% increase in the US retail vs. the 20% increase on their home turf. I can buy the same NISMO from Japan for about $27 (add shipping to that). Last year Tamiya upped the prices on many of their kits; the 350Z had been 1800 yen and jumped to 2500 yen, a nearly 40% rise in the price. I think they saw everything from Fujimi being priced in the 2200-3000 yen range and buyers didn't complain, so Tamiya raised prices. Raw materials prices are up all around due mostly to inflation caused by higher oil prices. If they want to remain in business and attempt a profit they probably realized it was time to get their prices in line w/their competition and let their premium image help to sell kits.

Obviously I'm in agreement w/everyone that mentions subject matter being of utmost importance! Do the right subject that hits the right nerve and the price can seem trivial. On the other hand, hit the wrong nerve on the wrong subject and price it like it's the best (Trumpeter...*cough*) and you'll send buyers fleeing in droves. The value of a kit in the eye of the buyer starts with subject matter, then accuracy, then quality. While it's great to get high-quality kits, I don't buy models because of that, I buy them because they're a subject I want to build. If I find that accuracy/quality doesn't live up to the pricetag on something I'm on the fence about, I certainly won't buy it. I've gotten infinitely more picky about what I buy today vs. the past.

Edited November 29, 2007 by Zoom Zoom

[VictorSmalls]

I guess I'm a little easier to please than alot of you guys. For me the main thing is subject. If the model doesn't deal with a automobile that I am interested in then I really will never give it a second look. Maybe I miss out on alot of great models by having this mind set, but I loose interest if the car doesn't make me exicted to see the end result.

Considering that I have just got back into this hobby I don't have a very deep opinion on some of these topics because nearly everything is new to me.

Maybe when I am older I will be more willing to shell out some cash for a model, but at this point I an CHEAP. I enjoy the hunt for models on ebay, especially when someone is selling off a collection. I just can't justify spending over $25 for a model at this time in my life and in my level of modeling skill.

[Olle F]

I want whatever the subject is to be realistically represented. That doesn't necessarily mean it has to have 200+ parts, because I have built a number of great kits that were well under 100 parts...some even under 50 (especially some aftermarket resin kits, but I love the old curbside Monogram European cars they did in the '60's and '70's). It's not the parts count, but their quality. Is the body proportioned correctly? Are the wheels/tires accurate, as well as the stance?

Amen. IMO, some of the best kits ever are AMT's '57 Bel Air, '57 Fairlane, '56 Crown Vic and '58 Impala. They are among the oldest kits on the market, but they have just about everything I want from a good kit: The subject is right, they look right, they sit right, the details are right, in short: It's possible to build a model that looks very close to the real thing without too much kitbashing or modifications. Some of R/M's newer models fall into the same category, for example their '69 Camaro, '65 Impala and the new '49 Mercury.

On the other end of the spectrum we have Monogram's '57 Bel Air, '69 Camaro and a few others that are so grossly out of proportion that it's virtually impossible to do anything with them unless you're a die-hard masochist. It doesn't matter that I love the 1:1 cars, I still wouldn't touch such turds with a 10-ft pole. The funny (well...) thing is that many of these are still on the market. It just goes to show that those who want their models to be accurate are in minority, we are simply not the bread and butter for the manufacturers. This is probably why it's so difficult to find good kits. The manufacturers know that there's only a few of us nitpickers out there, 99% of the buyers are casual builders who will buy anything that's "close enough" to the 1:1 car they like, brush paint it, slap it together and call it good. This really makes me appreciate efforts like Revell's '49 Mercury, it's like Christmas every time you find a kit like that.

[Raul_Perez]

For me, I never built a Tamiya kit, (except for their military figures), that didn't go together well and look good when it was finished, but then I may have skipped over building a few that others have mentioned. With that in mind, I never shy away from buying and building one of their kits if I’m interested in the subject.

While I do appreciate all of the custom options and goodies available in the old AMT kits, I either find myself bashing them together with a combination of other brands, photo-etched parts and such to get a finished product that I want to keep because of their poor engineering, molding and finish quality. While this is not a bad thing, in the end I spend more $$ making one of their subjects look as good as a Tamiya kit built straight from the box. The only time I’ve built and kept an AMT kit with just what came in the box was when I would use some of the older, pre-1960 model cars for derelict dioramas.

I have been reasonably-to-thoroughly impressed with the newer offerings from Revell, namely the new Willys kits, the 3 versions of the ’32 Ford, the ’56 Chevys and the ’49 Merc. The level of detail and fit is great. The “assemble-ability†can only be described as “shake and bakeâ€. Open the box, put in the glue and paint, close the lid and shake, open the box and smile!! Add some aftermarket detail and smile more!!

I do like what Tamiya is doing with the photo-etch upgrade options that are now available for many of their kits. By making this an option, they keep the initial cost of a pretty nice model down to a reasonable level that most modelers can afford, much like the automobile manufacturers do with the 1:1 cars. If you want the extra goodies, just open your wallet a little wider.

I also agree with many of the other guys on the issue of “subject matterâ€. If it’s not something I’m interested in, I won’t buy it no matter how well it’s engineered or how many different ways you can build it. Which brings me to the question “who at AMT thought that the general public wanted a model of the International Scout II?†It must have been the same guy that thought it was a good idea to reissue it…

[62rebel]

it wasn't AMT that did the Scout originally; the old Ertl company did it along with a couple of very nice IH big rigs and a bunch of farm tractors and equipment. AMT has the molds now and those of of who think the Scout is unique are happy to see it again. sure, it's pretty simplified but with just a little added detail from the ol' parts box it looks good.

i did one as a volunteer fireman's rig with tool boxes, fire extinguishers, etc in it. the other is still in progress but i'm leaning toward a rural constables' car.

[LDO]

I think some of us are over-analyzing this...or at least using the wrong definition of "good kit". Whose definition should we use? The enthusiast or the model company accountants? If using the accountant's definition, a good kit is defined as one that sells a lot. Subject matter would be the #1 judging criteria. If Billy Bob sees a cool kit at Wal-Mart and buys it, it's a good kit.

Billy Bob will never see the Revell of Germany Ferrari 250 GTO, because he doesn't know that Austin has a hobby shop*. By my definition, it's a good kit. It's an accurate rendition of the real car, decent detail, and it has a jewel of an engine. I'm really glad to see this Protar kit get reissued. I have 2 on order. I may order more.

*I know this about Billy Bob because he told me. Whenever I see other people looking at models in Wal-Mart, I'll tell them about a good hobby shop with lots of paints and supplies. It's always news to them.

[Jantrix]

I think it's options. The kits I looked for as a kid, and even today are the 2n1's and 3n1's. Stock, custom or drag! That way the subject appeals to nearly all modellers as long as they like that particular car. Fit, detail, crisp molding are great but that's not what is going to sell models, it's an interesting subject that can be built in different ways.

[Luc Janssens]

I think it's options. The kits I looked for as a kid, and even today are the 2n1's and 3n1's. Stock, custom or drag! That way the subject appeals to nearly all modellers as long as they like that particular car. Fit, detail, crisp molding are great but that's not what is going to sell models, it's an interesting subject that can be built in different ways.

I agree that subject matter and box art presentation sells a model, but when the assembly of a model fights you in every way possible and therefore ends up smacked into the wall, it is very likely the builder never buys a model (of that brand) again.

Ditto when a $15 model kit is so crude, that even a $10 diecast looks much better.

One of the reasons why I always ask to specify, what a modeler wants, in termes of the design of a kit, when asking the $250K question.

Luc

Edited November 30, 2007 by Luc Janssens

[Paul Payne]

I have been building since 1959, when I was 6 years old. For me, subject will always rule my decision to buy a kit. If I am not interested in the car, no sale, period. I love Monogram's Black Widow, but if I built one today, I would put in the work to add a rear suspension and drivetrain, because I would enjoy the end result so much. I think Revell's 1932 Ford kits are great, but I would love a version with a stock chassis, suspension, drivetrain, and flathead v-8, because it would be easier to retro it into a classic 1940's hot rod. Again, what you put into a kit, even if it's just a starting point, and enjoying your end result, is what it's about for me. Certainly a modern kit should be buildable, be accurate, and have a significant parts count to do it justice, but we live in an imperfect world inhabited by imperfect people, and sometimes things just don't work out the way they should. I say, buy a subject you like, make it the way you want, and enjoy it. There really are a huge selection of kits out there, and everyone should be able to find something they like and have fun with it.

[CAL]

I have been building since 1959, when I was 6 years old. For me, subject will always rule my decision to buy a kit. If I am not interested in the car, no sale, period. I love Monogram's Black Widow, but if I built one today, I would put in the work to add a rear suspension and drivetrain, because I would enjoy the end result so much. I think Revell's 1932 Ford kits are great, but I would love a version with a stock chassis, suspension, drivetrain, and flathead v-8, because it would be easier to retro it into a classic 1940's hot rod. Again, what you put into a kit, even if it's just a starting point, and enjoying your end result, is what it's about for me. Certainly a modern kit should be buildable, be accurate, and have a significant parts count to do it justice, but we live in an imperfect world inhabited by imperfect people, and sometimes things just don't work out the way they should. I say, buy a subject you like, make it the way you want, and enjoy it. There really are a huge selection of kits out there, and everyone should be able to find something they like and have fun with it.

Yeah the start to a good kit is when you open the box. It seems to be WOW! look at this... or ewww what is this.

I must admit, and I cannot be the only one, but I have kits that I got because I saw one, looked in the box, or someone has told me about it, but not really had an interest in the subject. In fact, some of my best models I built I didn't always have that much interest in the subject matters. I sometimes build to build and refine my skills on something I don't really care about... so if it goes south it's not a big emotional loss. Maybe that's why they tend to turn out good. Furthermore I encourage people to expand their horizons. I know some simply refuse. At one time I was hardcore a Street Machine/NHRA nut and couldn't even discuss anything else. I don't know what exactly changed, but I got into road racing, researching and reading up on Porsche, Ferrari, F-1, LM, ALMS and found and whole other world, that quite frankly is more interesting.

So needless to say, I do not put subject at the top of my list. It is up there but not necessarily at the top.

[CAL]

I think some of us are over-analyzing this...or at least using the wrong definition of "good kit". Whose definition should we use? The enthusiast or the model company accountants? If using the accountant's definition, a good kit is defined as one that sells a lot. Subject matter would be the #1 judging criteria. If Billy Bob sees a cool kit at Wal-Mart and buys it, it's a good kit.

Billy Bob will never see the Revell of Germany Ferrari 250 GTO, because he doesn't know that Austin has a hobby shop*. By my definition, it's a good kit. It's an accurate rendition of the real car, decent detail, and it has a jewel of an engine. I'm really glad to see this Protar kit get reissued. I have 2 on order. I may order more.

*I know this about Billy Bob because he told me. Whenever I see other people looking at models in Wal-Mart, I'll tell them about a good hobby shop with lots of paints and supplies. It's always news to them.

I agree 100% just because it sells doesn't mean it's a good kit. How many Revell 57 Chevy kits (the ones with opening everything) did Revell probably sell during its god knows how many times since it's been released and rereleased? I suspect that's got to be the BEST kit EVER!

Does that 250 kit come with an engine? I have the old Protar boxing and was thinking of getting one of the Revell AG kits.

[Zoom Zoom]

Does that 250 kit come with an engine? I have the old Protar boxing and was thinking of getting one of the Revell AG kits.

The new Revell AG kit is the Protar kit. Now molded in white. So many people hate it, but it's packed w/detail and is fairly accurate for the particular car it was patterned after.

[LDO]

The new Revell AG kit is the Protar kit. Now molded in white. So many people hate it, but it's packed w/detail and is fairly accurate for the particular car it was patterned after.

I believe that's the car that was owned by Dr Fabrizio Violati; #3851GT. An old Protar box had a photo of his real car on it.