Spray Booth

[RobRus]

Hey guys, I was a 1:1 car painter for about 20 years and have used everything from a house fan in the wall to a water filtered, downdraft spray-bake booth and I have seen a few spray booth fires in my time.

The thing you have to worry about is not the fumes but the paint dust collecting in the booth, fan and ductwork. A very small spark will turn your booth into a fire that even a large fire extingusiher will not put out. What you end up with is a jet like ignition with the air feeding the flame. I witnessed one massive fire in the exhaust system of a booth that would hold 2 semi truck tractors end to end. We dumped about 8 large fire extinguishers into the exhaust and still couldn't get it out. The fan motors finally burned out and the whole booth went up in flames. By the time the fire department got there one wall and the roof were fully engulfed.

I have seen 3 booth fires and one of them was a $15,000 DeVilbiss booth so home made or commercial makes no difference if you do not clean out the overspray dust. Any spark (not just from the fan motor) will set paint dust into a blazing inferno.

Trust me, this is a very scary thing to be around and you do not want to have one in your house, it isn't just a little fire that you can put out easily so do yourself a favor and take the time to clean your booth on a regular basis and don't be lax about it.

I have worked in a lot of different booths and some of the best ones I have used were nothing more than a cement block room with a fan in the wall. Although the downdraft, water filtered spray bake booth was by far the best I have ever used. The water filter literally extracts any dust that would normally go through the ductwork and fan so there is no need to have to clean out the dust.

So it isn't the fan motor or the fumes you have to worry about or wether you buy an expensive booth or make it yourself, it is how clean you keep it that is a direct relation to having a fire.

One word of warning... If you do have a fire do NOT shut off your fan, try to get it under control while the fan is still sucking the fire out of your house. If you shut the fan off the fire will be inside your house.

And, Always use metal ductwork, anything else will burn through and start your room on fire.

Seriously, you do not want to find out how scary a booth fire really is.

Take the time and watch this video segment on 60 Minutes.

http://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=A2KLqIH77IZPMW0AQ9f7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTBncGdyMzQ0BHNlYwNzZWFyY2gEdnRpZAM-?p=paint+dust+fire&fr=yfp-t-701&ei=utf-8&fr2=piv-web&n=21&tnr=21

[Art Anderson]

Hey guys, I was a 1:1 car painter for about 20 years and have used everything from a house fan in the wall to a water filtered, downdraft spray-bake booth and I have seen a few spray booth fires in my time.

The thing you have to worry about is not the fumes but the paint dust collecting in the booth, fan and ductwork. A very small spark will turn your booth into a fire that even a large fire extingusiher will not put out. What you end up with is a jet like ignition with the air feeding the flame. I witnessed one massive fire in the exhaust system of a booth that would hold 2 semi truck tractors end to end. We dumped about 8 large fire extinguishers into the exhaust and still couldn't get it out. The fan motors finally burned out and the whole booth went up in flames. By the time the fire department got there one wall and the roof were fully engulfed.

I have seen 3 booth fires and one of them was a $15,000 DeVilbiss booth so home made or commercial makes no difference if you do not clean out the overspray dust. Any spark (not just from the fan motor) will set paint dust into a blazing inferno.

Trust me, this is a very scary thing to be around and you do not want to have one in your house, it isn't just a little fire that you can put out easily so do yourself a favor and take the time to clean your booth on a regular basis and don't be lax about it.

I have worked in a lot of different booths and some of the best ones I have used were nothing more than a cement block room with a fan in the wall. Although the downdraft, water filtered spray bake booth was by far the best I have ever used. The water filter literally extracts any dust that would normally go through the ductwork and fan so there is no need to have to clean out the dust.

So it isn't the fan motor or the fumes you have to worry about or wether you buy an expensive booth or make it yourself, it is how clean you keep it that is a direct relation to having a fire.

One word of warning... If you do have a fire do NOT shut off your fan, try to get it under control while the fan is still sucking the fire out of your house. If you shut the fan off the fire will be inside your house.

And, Always use metal ductwork, anything else will burn through and start your room on fire.

Seriously, you do not want to find out how scary a booth fire really is.

Take the time and watch this video segment on 60 Minutes.

http://video.search....web&n=21&tnr=21

In all honesty, while I know that many modelers are on a budget (as am I!), why invite trouble? A spray booth should be a "one time buy/build", so why not invest the $$, get it right from the get-go? Squirrel cage blowers are readily available, in sizes small enough to do the job if you want to build your own booth, but if you lack either the space, or the time & skills to build one, it really makes sense to bite the bullet, buy a top quality ready-made booth!

For my money, the $$ I spent on my Pace Peacemaker has been very well worth it: Mr Pace is a professional sheet-metal fabricator--Pace spray booths are made from galvanized 20-gauge sheet steel. He uses only first quality squirrel cage blowers, which put the motor OUTSIDE of the air stream, so even the sealed motor never sees the overspray from airbrush or rattle can; and the booth uses a commonly available rippled paper filter (Walmart for one, carries this exact filter year-round!), and it's set up to use a commonly available 4" clothes dryer vent system. If you have a window nearby, just make a "plug" to fit in the window (my apartment has sash windows, so I bought a particle board shelf at Home Depot for like $10, shortened it to fit the window frame, bought a hole cutter to make the round hole in it to install the dryer vent outlet--I will hang on to the hole cutter, as eventually, I will have to make another window plug!). The filters for this booth run perhaps $7-$8 for a replacement.

In the bargain here: I get to paint indoors, 12-months out of the year; absolutely NO paint smell in my apartment (and I live in an apartment in an older house, which has a single central heat and air conditioning--I can tell what my neighbors are fixing for dinner!), and NOT a bit of paint overspray to gunk things up as well.

Yeah, it wasn't cheap to buy, but if I use the thing for just 10 years, my cost per year for it will be about $30 a year, and that's not at all bad! Oh, and did I mention that the thing is whipsper quiet? (The old Biddy directly below me, when asked, declared she never hears it, nor does she smell it, and SHE complains about EVERYTHING!)

But the bottom line here is safety-- Fire is a very present hazard whenever one sprays any flammable paint (look at your aerosol cans of paint, even your shaving cream) the propellent more than likely is butane, the same stuff as in a Bic cigarette lighter--so safety should be a top priority--model car kits, your home and its contents, and YOU yourself--none of that looks very good as charcoal!

Art

[Art Anderson]

Not mentioned in these posts but alluded to above is the venting of the booth, which is important. It is also necessary to wear the proper respirator so you can protect your lungs and be around for a long time! Regardless of how well your booth vents, protecting your lungs with a dual stage respirator only makes sense. These can be picked up at big box home centers or auto parts stores for $20 or less, so it is cheap insurance for your health.

I am sure there are some who feel that wearing a respirator is overkill considering the amount of paint fumes created by modeling compared to painting a 1:1 car but the toxins are still there and hazardous nonetheless.

Mike, I understand your concerns, but with a proper spray booth, vented out of doors, you should NEVER even smell a hint of the vapors, and of course, a proper booth will have a filter to capture the particulates (overspray). Now, if I never see any particulates, and if I NEVER smell more than just a hint of the solvents, then it seems to me that a mask is just overkill. If it ain't in the air where I am, it ain't gonna bother me, not now, not ever.

Art

[RobRus]

Art, I would respectfully disagree. You may not think you need one because you can't smell the paint but again, the dry dust is just as harmfull as the vapor. I very rarely did anything without at least a good particle mask. For the cheap cost of disposable masks it should be the first thing you do when you work with paint dust and overspray.

The way I see it, the cost of a box of masks is worth the peace of mind I get (and the fact that I am almost 60 years old and can still ride my mountan bike 30 miles without stopping).

But then again a lot of the painters I worked with took your point of view and I am sure most of them never had any breathing problems.

[Art Anderson]

Art, I would respectfully disagree. You may not think you need one because you can't smell the paint but again, the dry dust is just as harmfull as the vapor. I very rarely did anything without at least a good particle mask. For the cheap cost of disposable masks it should be the first thing you do when you work with paint dust and overspray.

The way I see it, the cost of a box of masks is worth the peace of mind I get (and the fact that I am almost 60 years old and can still ride my mountan bike 30 miles without stopping).

But then again a lot of the painters I worked with took your point of view and I am sure most of them never had any breathing problems.

Rob,

In case you missed what I wrote: I get NO overspray dust whatsoever in the room, PERIOD! All the overspray gets captured by the air filter, PERIOD.

And, BTW, I am almost 68, and my mountain bike is on track for more than 13,000 miles this year so far.

Art

[crazyjim]

Great exchange of info happening here. I'll stick with my Pace unit.

I don't have any kind of bicycle but could easily do at least 50 miles - as long as it's all downhill.

[CadillacPat]

Absolutely amazing,

Art, you are telling people there is no reason to wear a Respirator and,

Rob, You are giving reports on how you blew up two 18 wheelers in your paint booth.

Did yall forget we are talking about AirBrushing Models????????????????????

I can't read any more of this.

I am glad to see some of you guys taking the bull by the horns and designing and building your own Paint Booths,

Beyond that the scare tactics I see being posted are ridiculous and unfounded

.

I thought there would be a huge interest here in AirBrushing because on many of the AirBrush sites I go to there is an interest in building Models.

This discussion is not on Paint Booths big enough to drive two 18 wheelers into nor are we discussing the type of equipment needed to paint them.

I've posted the information I have from experience, take it or leave it, your choice.

Please, no more scare tactics or off subject rants.

"The facts Mam, just the facts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!", (Joe Friday)

CadillacPat

[RobRus]

Sorry the discussion doesn't conform to what you started the thread for.

This is the second time I have been put down on this forum and I only have 27 posts. I am not giving mis-infomation and I can tell you from experience, fire is nothing to take lightly.

I do not make things up and what I posted in my above post really did happen.. You can beileve it or not.

I get it guys... only the "old timers" can post here.

I will find another more friendly forum to visit.

See ya.

Bob

P.S. To the moderators. You can delete my ID here I don't feel very welcome.

Edited April 12, 2012 by RobRus

[RobRus]

First. @ Cadillac Pat, I was mistaken that you started this thread about spray booths when in fact it was geordie.

I do know a lot about the subject so I do have valuable info to give. He wanted a discussion about spray booths and this is exactly what he got. You may not like the fact that other people are safety conscious (which clearly you are not) but that is part of the topic that geordie started. The reason you make or buy a spray booth is to control the overspray so you don't breath it in, that is what the other part of this discussion is about. All important info about spray booths.

You said:

Rob, You are giving reports on how you blew up two 18 wheelers in your paint booth.

Did yall forget we are talking about AirBrushing Models????????????????????

NO I did not say that. You should re-read what I said. I didn't blow up anything. We had a ductwork fire in our booth that was big enough to put two tractors end to end... (not the trailers and there was nothing in the booth thank god). The fire was caused by a body man flicking his ash from a cigarette into the ductwork and igniting the dust.

My whole point of passing that info on was because it isn't the vapor that will cause a fire.

IT IS THE DUST!!! Clearly something you don't have a clue about since your booth is so dirty I am surprised you have not already burned your house down. The size of the booth makes no difference, if you have a fire it will burn and burn very fast. And it only takes one little spark.

No one has ever said "Oh yea, my house burned to the ground.... but it was only a small fire.

This information IS relevant to the topic whether you like it or not.

Just because you have been using your booth for 15 years and not had a fire does not mean that everyone should forget about safety.

Either breathing in the dust or setting it ablaze it is all about what a spray booth is about.

So nothing here was "Off topic" as you tried to point out.

Maybe you are upset because everyone didn't say "Wow... that Cadillac Pat is a really smart guy and if he is not worried about safety then no one else should be...

That is a really bad advice to give anyone. Safety should be the very first thing someone thinks about when installing or building a spray booth.

Notice I am not taking sides on home made or purchased booths, both can be very good, and both are subject to dust buildup which will burn.

After a number of PM's from some nice guys on this forum I am not going to leave. I won't let a few jerks drive me away.

I am not trying to cause a fight with you but if you take that attitude with people, there are some of us that can give it back and this is one argument you can not win... How can you tell people not to think about safety?

Yea... maybe you should take your own advice.... Just the Facts Man....

Edited April 13, 2012 by RobRus

[JunkPile]

Play nice kids!

[Guest Johnny]

This a topic that has be discussed at length here many many times and it always ends the same.

There are two extremes and we have seen both ends of the spectrum and the answer is somewhere in the middle.

There are over reactions that go to the extreme, and I have to say that I always was told you can never be too safe.

On the other hand I have also been told not to give into to extreme over reaction.

All very good points of view have been posted and a person has to do no more than look them over and apply a little common sense!

No reason for anyone to get mad. Just differing points of view like we all have on anything that may be discussed.

[CadillacPat]

Okay Rob,

So your whole "story" is nothing based on your own paint experience, it is based on a story you heard of some guy who threw lit cigarettes into ductwork.

Why are your fellow employees walking around throwing lit digarettes wherever they like?????

If you deliberately set the Booth on fire then OF COURSE it will burn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have to tell you, having a hissy fit and threatening to quit (then coming back to rail even more) does not add any credibility to your tale of total destruction.

When you came back with your name calling that told me all I need to know about your true experience with this subject.

Take a break, relax, light up another cigarette.

CadillacPat

[MrObsessive]

This thread is about to hit the cyber byte bucket...................

[Jantrix]

Yeah Bill is right. Rob you need to lighten up a bit here. Safety is important but getting all worked up isn't helping.

Lets just whittle this down to a simple sentence that Rob is trying to convey.

"The overspray dust build-up in an exhaust duct can be flamable as well as the fumes."

Good advice. Noted. Lets move on shall we?

Edited April 13, 2012 by Jantrix

[RobRus]

Pat, I guess you really can't read... And I didn't call you a name did I? If you mean the Jerk reference, that isn't anything that has not been proven out in this thread.

I am not going to wast another keystroke on someone like you.

@ Jantrix,

You are exactly correct, I do need to lighten up, I just closed my own 3d modeling forum down becasue of guys like this Cadillac Pat. I came back into plasitc modeling after 12 years only to find more of the same here. I guess you just can't get away from them...

I apologise for showing my frustration I usually keep it in check but some times.....

And yes. I was explaining from experience what spray booth dust will do and that it is actually much more dangerous than the fumes as far as igniting a fire.

I actually am on the side of building your own. My booth is home built and it works pretty well. The main trick in creating a good booth is not to have to little or too much airflow. Too little and you will smell it and too much and you will see it in your paint jobs.

I would suggest you do a search on the internet for designing your own booth. There are a lot of ideas and good info out there along with the formula to calculate the CFM for the size of area you are working with.

A good nights sleep and a fresh outlook is all I needed.

Cheers,

Bob

[Harry P.]

Just a reminder that you all have an "Ignore Member" setting available...

It's a lot more effective that having a public feud...

[CadillacPat]

I am not going to wast another keystroke on someone like you.

I apologise for showing my frustration I usually keep it in check but some times.....

I actually am on the side of building your own.

A good nights sleep and a fresh outlook is all I needed.

Cheers,

Bob

Good Night Rob,

Apology accepted.

Don't go to sleep with that cigarette in your hand, you don't want to blow up any more 18 wheelers.

CadillacPat

[RobRus]

Thanks Harry, I know there is the ignore button but I don't think that is nessesary at this point.

Pat, I wasn't trolling for an argument and that is the last thing I want being a new member here. But as you found out I am not afraid of one either.

As far as I can see the issue is over. I am really the kind of guy that does not hold a grudge and I do try to get along with people so lets just call off the junk yard dogs and move on.

I think I have a lot to contribute to this forum as well as a lot to learn so I am not going anywhere and hope you accept that. If not then we can use that Ignore button and "never the twain shall meet"

Cheers,

Bob

[Guest]

Bob is right. The dust can start fires, and will build up over time, big booth or small. I have been in the cabinet finishing buisness for over 25 years, and know a thing or two as well. Vapors are explosive as well, so I would not be using hair dryers or bathroom fans. If you are building your own booth, you should get a squirrel cage fan from Grainger.

[LAone]

lots of great info. i was thinking of buying a new booth for spraying aerosol paints as the one i have is not meant for it.

also, i was wondering if anyone here has made a booth for a spray booth?? meaning a designated small room or area that is sealed for painting, like the 1:1's do.

[Harry P.]

Paasche spray booths come with this information:

...Rugged, compact in size and easy to assemble. This portable booth features galvanized metal panels for easy cleaning and durability. Working dimensions are 30-inch wide by 16-inch high, perfect for all your hobby and craft spraying. Equipped with two 115 Volt fans. Not intended for use with hazardous materials, flammable or explosive paints or materials. If necessary, wear goggles and/or protective paint and vapor mask. 4-inch dryer duct adapter included.

Huh? A spray booth they claim is "perfect for all your hobby spraying" that is "not intended for use with hazardous materials, flammable or explosive paints...????"

Isn't that like selling a can opener with a warning that it is not intended for opening cans?

Is this just another case of lawyers gone wild?

[CadillacPat]

Harry,

Those little "Hobby" type Spray Booths are built for a profit not performance.

So it looks like all one can use with the Paasche Booth is water based paints.

CadillacPat

[Harry P.]

It's very misleading to sell a spray booth that claims it's "perfect for all your hobby spraying" while also warning that it's not meant to be used with flammable paints.

Buyer beware, I guess.

[sjordan]

I have some observations and a question on the subject of masks and overspray. Seems to me that any spray device, aerosol, airbrush or even pump, is going to leave some airborne particles. Many years ago at an ad agency where I worked, we had a Xerox machine that kept breaking down. We couldn't figure out why until the Xerox guy said he kept finding gummy stuff on the machine's drum. As it turns out, this was 3M Spraymount that we used for mounting layouts to board - our spray booth (unventilated) was about 15 feet away from the copier, and we couldn't smell or see any problem. I wonder if it would be wise to turn off any air conditioning in the room while painting, since the fans might pull particles away from the booth? Any insights on this?.

[Guest Johnny]

Anything that has a fan that draws air, even the computer will draw any airborne particles that drift out far enough from the source.

While it would be a rather small amount, Yes I would shut the AC off while spraying!

The less air movement you have (other than the booth) the better!

Edited April 14, 2012 by Johnny