Hardcore Scratchbuilding Question

[Modelmartin]

All this scratchbuilding stuff seems way out of my league.....

You're right, Sauber! Hang it up and buy some snap-tites!!

Wow, Andy, this is wild and way cool! I can't wait to see the body as it comes along. I'd like to discuss the techniques you'll be using. That's far more complex that an aluminum digger body, unless somebody was to go totally "Hanna". You just had to mention that thing about finishing, didn't you? So, I have over a year to finish something for Salt Lake? Maybe so...nah, probably not!

I have done small brass body panels before but not a whole bodyshell. I will be climbing the learning curve on this one. I will be getting a micro torch and learn about silver soldering.

Try the finishing thing, Dan.....you will like it!!

[Harry P.]

Scratchbuilding? Yes!

That's the essence of model building. The more the better, I say.

[hawkeye649]

Very Funny, Himmel!

They are some non-commercial guys who run circles around me - like you! If you finish anything!

Below is a pic of what will hopefully be my GSL 2011 entry. It is called Twinwinder. The resin Austin coupe body will be remade in brass. The body will have a nose too. The twin Caddie motors will be blown. Aside from some of the engine and driveline pieces, it will all be scratchbuilt. I plan on doing my own wheels and tires, too.

I say bring on the scratchbuilding. Even those who don't do it will enjoy seeing what others can do. It's like the Olympics- lots of people watch even though most do not participate.

Looks like something a car-minded kid would draw.... I love it!

[jeffb]

some of my stuff comes close to full scratch..

[Bernard Kron]

You should post stuff showing scratchbuilding here at MCM. And you shouldn't be shy about promoting Straightliners for the more "hardcore" and for lots of others as well. Interest in scratchbuilding runs a very wide gamut, There are those who enjoy watching the work of others for its obvious aesthetic appeal. Then there are those of us that indulge in it from time to time either because what we need simply isn't readily available, isn't good enough, or outright doesn't exist, and/or for the shear pleasure of having done it. And finally there are those who simply would not be happy doing it any other way. I think you'll find that the number of "hardcore" scratchbuilders is quite small but the number of scratchbuilding enthusiasts is far larger. Don't sell it short! As was just said, Bring It On!

BTW I recommend SLM (http://www.straightlinemodeler.org/ ) to everyone into car modeling. The information, modeling and techniques on there are absolutely first rate and demand to be seen. And for those of you into building accurate representations of traditional drag cars it is mandatory.

Keep the flame burning, Dan.

Edited February 28, 2010 by gbk1

[sjordan2]

Also, it's not necessary to demonstrate scratchbuilding of a complete vehicle from the ground up. Let's see what kind of ingenuity is used for various individual parts.

[Blake Rogers]

thats one of the main reason's why i am here is to learn more about this great hobby!! i was told long ago u learn something new everyday!!

Edited February 28, 2010 by moparfan426

[Mooneyzs]

Count me in as one that would like to learn more. I do a little scratch building myself and always look forward to learning more to improve my building skills.

[straightliner1]

You should post stuff showing scratchbuilding here at MCM. And you shouldn't be shy about promoting Straightliners for the more "hardcore" and for lots of others as well. Interest in scratchbuilding runs a very wide gamut, There are those who enjoy watching the work of others for its obvious aesthetic appeal. Then there are those of us that indulge in it from time to time either because what we need simply isn't readily available, isn't good enough, or outright doesn't exist, and/or for the shear pleasure of having done it. And finally there are those who simply would not be happy doing it any other way. I think you'll find that the number of "hardcore" scratchbuilders is quite small but the number of scratchbuilding enthusiasts is far larger. Don't sell it short! As was just said, Bring It On!

BTW I recommend SLM (http://www.straightlinemodeler.org/ ) to everyone into car modeling. The information, modeling and techniques on there are absolutely first rate and demand to be seen. And for those of you into building accurate representations of traditional drag cars it is mandatory.

Keep the flame burning, Dan.

Thank you so much for the kind words. I there was anything I've ever wanted anyone to say about the SLM website, you just said it. I am humbled and appreciative. Quite a few folks have donated their time to make the site what it has become. I know that sometimes it'll go for months without anything new, but I strive to put up content that is difficult to find elsewhere. Most of the large scratcbuilding articles are my own work, including the one on wire wheels and the new piece on tinwork. I am thankful to Tom west for the work he did in putting together the story of Aurora's Racing Scenes series. I have several more illustrations and photos to add to that piece--stuff that Tom's only recently made available, so look for some new stuff in that article, soon. Anyway, I've always tried to create a well-rounded, visually attractive and informative site that provides a source of ideas for all car modelers. All that said, rather than post how-tos on this board, I will post links to new information and tips as I publish them--that makes it easier on me!grin Thanks for all the interest in this subject. I am somewhat surprised that it's been so good!

[straightliner1]

Also, it's not necessary to demonstrate scratchbuilding of a complete vehicle from the ground up. Let's see what kind of ingenuity is used for various individual parts.

You are correct about that. In fact, much of the scratchbuilding info on the SLM site is quick, easy stuff that can be created quickly, but that improves the look of a model greatly. Things like the wire wheels will take an investment of time and frustration (yeah, I said it!), but they are leaps and bounds better than kit wheels or photo-etched wires--Right, Shane? On the other hand, things like slapper bars and fuel pumps can be built in an hour or less.

some of my stuff comes close to full scratch..

You resin guys are in a league of your own. I admire the heck out of you guys!

[straightliner1]

You're right, Sauber! Hang it up and buy some snap-tites!!

I have done small brass body panels before but not a whole bodyshell. I will be climbing the learning curve on this one. I will be getting a micro torch and learn about silver soldering.

Try the finishing thing, Dan.....you will like it!!

So, Andy, you're not going to let me slide by with my standard "A completed subassembly is a completed model.", are you?

[Eric Stone]

So, Dan, you never did tell us what kit actually has the best slapper bars...

[Smart-Resins]

Andy, I love that chassis, I have a chopped t body from Jimmy I keep rethinking the design to since I like it. I love your chassis work. I finially got me a weller station, so ill be delving back into the realm of brass again! I got nice big order so I wont be running out any time soon. The point is I absolutly love that front V axle. I had actually forgotten about those. I may contemplate that idea. However, I really want to set my standards high on the 53 and I really want to finish it! Not6hing else that I am planning durring it other then getting some more masters in rubber and casted up. Thanks. Jody

[straightliner1]

So, Dan, you never did tell us what kit actually has the best slapper bars...

Why you little! Well, Eric, I have to confess to being a bit ignorant, where that's concerned.grin

[Mark Brown]

Well, you know my feelings on the subject, Dan. I'd venture that "hardcore scratchbuilding" would be worthy of its own subforum. And I agree that treating subassemblies as models in their own right is a great way to accomplish daunting tasks. Baby steps, on the road to a completed model.

Forget the slapper bars, Eric - nobody uses 'em anymore. Think "CalTracs"!

BTW, Dan - you owe me an email!

[straightliner1]

Well, you know my feelings on the subject, Dan. I'd venture that "hardcore scratchbuilding" would be worthy of its own subforum. And I agree that treating subassemblies as models in their own right is a great way to accomplish daunting tasks. Baby steps, on the road to a completed model.

Forget the slapper bars, Eric - nobody uses 'em anymore. Think "CalTracs"!

BTW, Dan - you owe me an email!

Mark, I do owe you an email. Go look around the website, and you'll see what I've been doing when I'm not sleeping or driving, and you'll know why I haven't sent it, yet--I am getting close, though! I think Eric was just busting my chops because of an earlier comment I made. I think you're right, maybe I should start a hardcore scratchbuilding sub-forum. Man, your stuff always looks great, Mark! Always! Treating subassemblies as models is also a great way to have a whole bunch of little, finished models that nobody else thinks of as finished models, too. I need to finish up the Enderle small block manifold and send it and the Donovan off for casting. I can't remember if I've showed it to you. The super macro setting on my camera really shows the warts!

[Mark Brown]

Mark, I do owe you an email. Go look around the website, and you'll see what I've been doing when I'm not sleeping or driving, and you'll know why I haven't sent it, yet--I am getting close, though! I think Eric was just busting my chops because of an earlier comment I made. I think you're right, maybe I should start a hardcore scratchbuilding sub-forum. Man, your stuff always looks great, Mark! Always! Treating subassemblies as models is also a great way to have a whole bunch of little, finished models that nobody else thinks of as finished models, too. I need to finish up the Enderle small block manifold and send it and the Donovan off for casting. I can't remember if I've showed it to you. The super macro setting on my camera really shows the warts!

Those look great, Dan - but I'd expect nothing less! You're sure right about the camera - when you can blow a one-inch-long part up to fill a 21-inch monitor, you're not going to miss much, and you'll probably see things you didn't want to!

The website looks really good - I check it from time to time to see how things are progressing.

[straightliner1]

Those look great, Dan - but I'd expect nothing less! You're sure right about the camera - when you can blow a one-inch-long part up to fill a 21-inch monitor, you're not going to miss much, and you'll probably see things you didn't want to!

The website looks really good - I check it from time to time to see how things are progressing.

>>You're sure right about the camera - when you can blow a one-inch-long part up to fill a 21-inch monitor

That's essentially looking at a 1:25 scale Donovan in 1:1 size. Thanks for the kind words about the website. I'll get an email to you no later than Saturday.

[Jim Keeler]

A comment on "hardcore scratchbuilding.

Hardcore scratch building starts with a small project. It doesn't have to be metal to qualify as "hardcore" many parts can be made easier with sheet or strip styrene, and when painted an observer would never know the difference. I had the opportunity to meet and become friends with Gerald Wingrove. He was one of the"masters" of scratch building model cars. He used metal for his projects and hand hammered his small parts from sheet brass, copper, and aluminum. He carved wood to simulate upholstery and his models were very convincing. His books are landmarks in the scale model car building world. His whole concept of making parts, like engines, transmissions, and other parts was based on breaking everything down to square, rectangular, round, and triangular shapes. Almost every engine block is basically a rectangle with a lot of small shapes added to "or removed" from the the basic solid shape. Look at almost any automotive part, except bodies and you will see the same thing. Study exploded views of engines and other automobile parts and you begin to get the idea. His other major idea was that a model car part has to be made using the same type of machines that made the real parts in order for them to be accurate. Right angle corners must be 90 degrees, or they are not correct. In other words His thought was to use lathes, milling machines, and drill presses to create the parts. His models were done in series; He made several of each one to sell to various customers here in the US, and abroad. He found out as he progressed that he needed to make "masters" of each part, and then he made molds to recreate several copies of each wheel, seat, or fenders. He worked in 1/15 scale, ans was indeed a master. I maintain that even the average plastic kit model car builder can create exquisite models by taking the time to learn and study.

Exhaustive research of your subject is the key. Without it you cannot build a replica of a real car, but you can build something right out of your imagination. After his research, Wingrove would do extensive drawings of each part, with some basic dimensions. many of his parts, however were made by eyeballing the parts so that they "looked right". If you can, find and STUDY his books. You will learn much,but do not get discouraged!

After seeing his work, and meeting with him on several occasions I decided to try the scratch building route. I started by using styrene to create a 1/16 scale rocket powered land speed record car. Over a two or three week period I had completed the basic structure of the car. It looked great, but I wanted to do more.I did not know how to solder, but had all the tools necessary, silver solder, a soldering iron, flux,and a supply of brass strips and sheets, a sharp razor saw,a jewelers saw with an assortment of blades an assortment of files, headlined by a ten inch bastard file, and sandpaper and steel wool. I cleared my workbench of everything (so I would not set a fire, more about that later) and started to learn to solder. Everything I tried did not work. It was then that i realized that I needed a torch, so I bought a small one that was advertised to do a good job on jewelry parts. I tried the flux, and the solder, and eventually set my workbench on fire when it suddenly leaked all the gas and caught everything on fire. After using my fire extinguisher. I tossed the small torch away and went out and bought a large propane torch with a three inch diameter bottle that is about a foot high. I picked up three sizes of torches to fit on the end and went home to start over. It took me about three nights(maybe six hours) to learn how to control the size of the flame, use the right amount of flux (flux lowers the temperature at which solder melts), and to determine the amount of solder to use. Using the styrene parts I had previously made, I transferred the dimensions to brass and began to cut them to shape. It took a lot longer than making the styrene parts, but know these were brass! I proceeded to make all the parts in maybe two nights, and then started soldering.

I learned that the secrets of silver soldering small parts together are:

1.Controlling the flame so that you just"kiss" the parts enough to heat them.

2.Cutting the silver solder into TINY pieces with a sharp Xacto blade.

3.Using a paste flux, not a liquid.

3.CLEANING each piece of metal with sandpaper and steel wool before you solder, and not TOUCHING the areas you solder.

4.Cooling the parts with water after you solder.

5. Making sure the parts are "square with each other.

Using these steps I soldered together all off my rocket car parts in about six hours. I have had those parts for over thirty years, and they are all still together. I had to make conical compound curve nose cone for the model so I used a piece of copper and a small ball peen hammer to pound out the metal on a piece of (full scale) RR track. With a couple nights of pounding and shaping, I had a cool looking compound curve nose cone that looks like it was shaped using an English Wheel. (Google: English Wheel to see what it is.)

I have since constructed a miniature English wheel and learned how to shape metal just like they build a full size car body from flat sheets of metal. For body parts I recommend copper because it is easier to shape, and it solders easy.

Any way, just a comment on "hardcore" scratch building.

Jim Keeler

[straightliner1]

A comment on "hardcore scratchbuilding.

Hardcore scratch building starts with a small project. It doesn't have to be metal to qualify as "hardcore" many parts can be made easier with sheet or strip styrene, and when painted an observer would never know the difference. I had the opportunity to meet and become friends with Gerald Wingrove. He was one of the"masters" of scratch building model cars. He used metal for his projects and hand hammered his small parts from sheet brass, copper, and aluminum. He carved wood to simulate upholstery and his models were very convincing. His books are landmarks in the scale model car building world. His whole concept of making parts, like engines, transmissions, and other parts was based on breaking everything down to square, rectangular, round, and triangular shapes. Almost every engine block is basically a rectangle with a lot of small shapes added to "or removed" from the the basic solid shape. Look at almost any automotive part, except bodies and you will see the same thing. Study exploded views of engines and other automobile parts and you begin to get the idea. His other major idea was that a model car part has to be made using the same type of machines that made the real parts in order for them to be accurate. Right angle corners must be 90 degrees, or they are not correct. In other words His thought was to use lathes, milling machines, and drill presses to create the parts. His models were done in series; He made several of each one to sell to various customers here in the US, and abroad. He found out as he progressed that he needed to make "masters" of each part, and then he made molds to recreate several copies of each wheel, seat, or fenders. He worked in 1/15 scale, ans was indeed a master. I maintain that even the average plastic kit model car builder can create exquisite models by taking the time to learn and study.

Exhaustive research of your subject is the key. Without it you cannot build a replica of a real car, but you can build something right out of your imagination. After his research, Wingrove would do extensive drawings of each part, with some basic dimensions. many of his parts, however were made by eyeballing the parts so that they "looked right". If you can, find and STUDY his books. You will learn much,but do not get discouraged!

After seeing his work, and meeting with him on several occasions I decided to try the scratch building route. I started by using styrene to create a 1/16 scale rocket powered land speed record car. Over a two or three week period I had completed the basic structure of the car. It looked great, but I wanted to do more.I did not know how to solder, but had all the tools necessary, silver solder, a soldering iron, flux,and a supply of brass strips and sheets, a sharp razor saw,a jewelers saw with an assortment of blades an assortment of files, headlined by a ten inch bastard file, and sandpaper and steel wool. I cleared my workbench of everything (so I would not set a fire, more about that later) and started to learn to solder. Everything I tried did not work. It was then that i realized that I needed a torch, so I bought a small one that was advertised to do a good job on jewelry parts. I tried the flux, and the solder, and eventually set my workbench on fire when it suddenly leaked all the gas and caught everything on fire. After using my fire extinguisher. I tossed the small torch away and went out and bought a large propane torch with a three inch diameter bottle that is about a foot high. I picked up three sizes of torches to fit on the end and went home to start over. It took me about three nights(maybe six hours) to learn how to control the size of the flame, use the right amount of flux (flux lowers the temperature at which solder melts), and to determine the amount of solder to use. Using the styrene parts I had previously made, I transferred the dimensions to brass and began to cut them to shape. It took a lot longer than making the styrene parts, but know these were brass! I proceeded to make all the parts in maybe two nights, and then started soldering.

I learned that the secrets of silver soldering small parts together are:

1.Controlling the flame so that you just"kiss" the parts enough to heat them.

2.Cutting the silver solder into TINY pieces with a sharp Xacto blade.

3.Using a paste flux, not a liquid.

3.CLEANING each piece of metal with sandpaper and steel wool before you solder, and not TOUCHING the areas you solder.

4.Cooling the parts with water after you solder.

5. Making sure the parts are "square with each other.

Using these steps I soldered together all off my rocket car parts in about six hours. I have had those parts for over thirty years, and they are all still together. I had to make conical compound curve nose cone for the model so I used a piece of copper and a small ball peen hammer to pound out the metal on a piece of (full scale) RR track. With a couple nights of pounding and shaping, I had a cool looking compound curve nose cone that looks like it was shaped using an English Wheel. (Google: English Wheel to see what it is.)

I have since constructed a miniature English wheel and learned how to shape metal just like they build a full size car body from flat sheets of metal. For body parts I recommend copper because it is easier to shape, and it solders easy.

Any way, just a comment on "hardcore" scratch building.

Jim Keeler

Good to hear from you, Jim! We've hung out at Salt Lake a time or two and you ALWAYS make me laugh! And I mean LAUGH! Thanks for that. Your philosophies regarding scratchbuilding mirror mine. I have always felt that any "average" modeler can do this. Hell, I can! I'd like to see your miniature English wheel. I've been wanting to construct one for several years, now. When I get the second part of my article on dragster bodies posted, I'll put a link here, so you can check it out. The first part is posted, but it's only creating the motor plate, which isn't really anything too fancy.

[Mark Brown]

I'd like to see your miniature English wheel. I've been wanting to construct one for several years, now.

I'd love to see that English wheel, too. I've dreamed of making a working scale English wheel, and a working scale bead roller, for years.