Paint Questions and Experiments!

[1hobby1]

To start off I am a modeling newbie so I am open to all kinds of advice, so feel free to share advice! I decided to do some experimenting today. So I am in the process of finalizing a 1978 corvette but decided to experiment some polishing on an extra hood I painted to mimic the color on the corvette. I used Rustoleum Plastic Primer and Rustoleum Gloss Enamel grey for paint. This shows the difference between the regular enamel gloss compared to when I used the LMG polishing kit (wet sand with 3600,4000,6000,8000,12000) WITHOUT a clear coat. I will also be adding photos in a few days of the difference between Testors Clear Coat and Rustoleum Acrylic Enamel Gloss Clear.

I taped off half of a spare hood I had lying around and began to wet sand. Here is the Before and After

(Clicking on the image makes it easier to see the difference)

Now, I don't know if I did this correctly but, I followed the instructions on the kit and I wet sanded increasing the grit with water and a drop of dish soap. The rough, pitted looking side of the hood is the AFTER from the sanding and applying scratch remover polish! and the "smoother" look is the before with just the gloss enamel on it. I was shocked!

I am looking to get that smooth glossy mirror finish everyone is after!

I will also be comparing clear coats before and after polishing once I spray another spare hood and will post the results!

Thanks for reading!

Edited September 8, 2014 by 1hobby1

[bobthehobbyguy]

Looks to me that you are getting a lot of orange peel. How far back are you shooting from?

Also from the picture you need to spend more time with rougher polishing cloths , the polished paint still has some heavy orange peel.

Another thing how long are you letting the enamel dry before you are polishing it? That may be part of why the paint is duller after polishing.

[bobthehobbyguy]

Duplicate post.

Edited August 30, 2014 by bobthehobbyguy

[my80malibu]

I would agree with the above statement, it looks like a spatter job. You cannot get close enough with a spray can or it will start to run. You Could be at least six inches away, and move a little slower, to give you just enough of heavy coverage on your final pass to make it smooth.

[1hobby1]

Looks to me that you are getting a lot of orange peel. How far back are you shooting from?

Also from the picture you need to spend more time with rougher polishing cloths , the polished paint still has some heavy orange peel.

Another thing how long are you letting the enamel dry before you are polishing it? That may be part of why the paint is duller after polishing.

It has been dry for 5 days. but you are correct on the spray distance, I did spray about 12inches away for the first coat because I did not want to cover to much area at once. for the second coat and third coat I was closer but not as close as 6 inches away from the body while spraying. I was still further away than that.

when polishing should I start with a lower grit like 1800 or 2000 and spend a good amount of time on that before moving up the scale?

My08malibu :Should I always be that close or only on the final pass?

Thanks guys!

[1hobby1]

Also does not having a clear coat on make a difference? I watched a youtube tutorial on paint where a Ferrari model was painted and polished without any clear coat and the paint seemed to have that smooth mirror finish I am after. is that possible without clear?

[my80malibu]

I spray about that far away when using spray cans, with steady passes. If you get the paint to lay down smooth enough, 3200 grit is good to start with.

Edited August 30, 2014 by my80malibu

[bobthehobbyguy]

You want your color coat to be smooth so that when you polish the clear it won't be a lot of work to polish it out. I like to have clear over the color so there is less chance of polishing through the color coat

Edited August 30, 2014 by bobthehobbyguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

The WHOLE POINT of sanding is to get rid of the orange peel first. Sand it FLAT with whatever grit paper you use first (with that much peel, you ought to start with 600-800). Then, WHEN THE ORANGE PEEL IS GONE, you move to progressively finer grits TO REMOVE THE SANDING SCRATCHES FROM THE PREVIOUS GRIT and bring up the gloss.

Also practice painting. You CAN get a finish like this green hood with NO sanding or polishing whatsoever...it just takes practice.

[Ace-Garageguy]

PS. I'm not trying to be mean, just helpful.

That excessive orange-peel you have is one of the problems a lot of beginning modelers get into by taking the popular advice to spray your paint in light "mist coats". This almost invariably leads to heavy orange peel and excessive paint film build-up, unless you're shooting well-reduced paint with an airbrush.

Learning to shoot rattle-can paints wet enough so they'll flow out is an learned technique, but YOU CAN DO IT. You just have to TRY DIFFERENT TECHNIQUES until you master getting a slick surface every time (or almost every time). There's a somewhat fine line between shooting your paint wet enough so it will flow and self-level, and shooting it TOO wet so that it puddles, bubbles and runs.

EVERY RATTLE CAN PAINT HANDLES SLIGHTLY DIFFERENTLY, but if you practice and master the basics, like keeping the can moving and getting good overlap and edge-coverage, you'll find that you can adjust your technique slightly with each new paint you try.

This also pre-supposes that YOU HAVE TO EXPERIMENT with each new kind of paint and GET YOUR TECHNIQUE DOWN BEFORE YOU PAINT YOUR MODEL.

[unclescott58]

I use to get orange peel like that on all of my models. And I use to get a ton of advice from other model builders on how to fix the problem. Very little of their advice worked. So how did I get rid of the problem? I quit using enamel paints and switched to lacquers. Especially for painting car bodies. I use to be a cheap SOB. I thought lacquer, especially Tamiya was too expensive. But using lacquer in the long run has turned out cheaper. I have not had to strip one model yet because of a bad lacquer paint job. With enamel I've had to strip quite a few.

Recently I built a model of MPC's Space 1999 Eagle using Testors gloss white enamel. The paint came out okay. I had a second can of the same paint. So I went to paint my MPC '75 Dart Sport with that second can. First coat I got mild orange peel and air bubbles along different edges of the model. So out come the sandpaper. Off come the bubbles. Went to shoot the second coat. More and worst orange peel. Showed it to our expert model painters in our local club. All they could suggest was stripping the body and starting over again. So into the purple bath with the body. Now I need to go to a hobby store and buy some Tamiya lacquer. Should have used Tamiya lacquer in the first place.

Scott

[Ace-Garageguy]

I use to get orange peel like that on all of my models. And I use to get a ton of advice from other model builders on how to fix the problem. Very little of their advice worked. So how did I get rid of the problem? I quit using enamel paints and switched to lacquers.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but any decent-quality paint will give excellent results if you learn to use it correctly.

Lacquer is very forgiving of technique and dries hard and fast, so wet-sanding and polishing work very well to bring up a maximum gloss.

Enamel works well for getting a gloss straight out of the can. (I freely admit Testors enamels can be frustrating, as they sometimes do like to bubble for absolutely no apparent reason, and they take forever to dry enough to sand and polish...if you shoot from the cans... but the problems CAN be overcome with patience and practice)

This body was shot with cheap hardware-store rattle-can black lacquer, lightly sanded and polished.

The WHEELS were shot with Testors ENAMEL (directly from the can) precisely because it self-glosses and there is NO WAY to sand and polish wheels. I needed something that would gloss itself.

The results speak for themselves.

Learning to shoot your paint wet enough to slick-out and self-level, whether lacquer OR enamel, will save you hours and hours of tedious and repetitive wet-sanding.

This is the body above, just-shot. Notice the orange-peel is almost non-existent.

And this is what your paint should look like AFTER the orange-peel has been leveled, prior to sanding with finer and finer grits and polishing to get the gloss back...

Edited August 31, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[1hobby1]

This is all great advice! I'm sorry for all the questions!

I have a few model car body's that were painted when I was younger and will probably use those as practice. What is the best way to strip the paint so can I start from scratch with those cars and not harm the body?

As for paint, I really would like to use rattle can spray paint either dupli-color or rustoleum. I have easy access to it and to get any model car paint it's about an hour drive for me. I could order them online but, Im trying to save that as absolute last resort. That being said I'm going to have to practice with rattle can paint. I also did not use any clear coat on that practice hood. Would clear coat help when polishing and wet sanding?

Back to the model I am focusing on, Since I already painted the body with the same technique I used on this practice hood, should I leave it with just the gloss enamel with no sanding or polishing, or is this going to have to be a total stripped paintjob and start from scratch? This is how the body looks.

Last question I promise! when wet sanding I never got that scratched look. The paint also started to thin in some spots and it was just horrible. does that mean I need to apply more paint to the body? I believe this is due to the fact I was spraying in light coats.

[unclescott58]

Plenty of info on striping paint on other postings within this area of web site. Good luck. And have fun.

Scott

[Ace-Garageguy]

I think you'll like Duplicolor. You get a lot in a can, it's easy to handle, there's a WIDE selection of colors, and it produces excellent results. The green Oldsmobile hood in my post #9 is Duplicolor rattlecan over Plasticoat primer (very similar to Duplicolor primer, which also gives excellent results).

The green hood is EXACTLY as it looked after spraying with NO sanding or polishing. After a few days, it lost a little gloss as it shrunk in, but a light polish brought the gloss up better than in the photo.

Remember that every model painter has techniques he's developed from trial and error over time, and what we say here is only a guide, each based on his OWN experience. That's why some things may seem to be contradictory, but all I know for sure is what actually works for me, over and over and over, and what I have pictures of to illustrate.

I'll put up a little more info about what works best for ME this afternoon when I have more time.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[1hobby1]

Plenty of info on striping paint on other postings within this area of web site. Good luck. And have fun.

Scott

found a great post and got some great info on it. thanks!

I think you'll like Duplicolor. You get a lot in a can, it's easy to handle, there's a WIDE selection of colors, and it produces excellent results. The green Oldsmobile hood in my post #9 is Duplicolor rattlecan over Plasticoat primer (very similar to Duplicolor primer, which also gives excellent results).

The green hood is EXACTLY as it looked after spraying with NO sanding or polishing. After a few days, it lost a little gloss as it shrunk in, but a light polish brought the gloss up better than in the photo.

Remember that every model painter has techniques he's developed from trial and error over time, and what we say here is only a guide, each based on his OWN experience. That's why some things may seem to be contradictory, but all I know for sure is what actually works for me, over and over and over, and what I have pictures of to illustrate.

I'll put up a little more info about what works best for ME this afternoon when I have more time.

Great! looking forward to reading more and than trying out new techniques! very very helpful. thank you

[MrObsessive]

My thoughts on clearcoating..............

One does not need to clearcoat a paint job if the paint is a single stage solid color. There's enough hardener (enamel, lacquer, acrylic enamel) in the paint that IMO it makes clearcoating unnecessary. Conversely, metallics should almost always (there are exceptions) be clearcoated as trying to rub out and polish without doing so disturbs the metallic flakes lending to a swirled, mottled appearance.

Here are some examples where I did and did not use clearcoat..........

No clearcoat on the following........

The above model has a very subtle metallic finish, so I was able to get away with just rubbing it out and polishing.

Now here are a few pics of models that were clearcoated due to the metallic paint..............

As Bill mentioned, each builder has his or her own way of going about painting. I can only tell you what works for me. As far as burning through coats------I try to make sure that there are sufficient coats of paint to accommodate future rubbing out and polishing. Clearcoating is not always insurance against such a thing happening..............you can burn through the clearcoat as well.

Hope this helps!

[1hobby1]

Wow those are beautiful finishes. Thank you again for the advice! I will keep that in kids when I come across metallic paint jobs! I believe I just need practice with the spray can as well as my polishing technique. But you have some amazing models there. Thanks for helping and sharing!

[Quick GMC]

I am an experienced painter who still sucks at painting. I think I can help.

I like polishing the enamels without clear coat because it gives that authentic vintage look.

3600 won't do anything for you on that orange peel. You need something like Tamiya 800 grit. Then 1000, 1500 and so on. It takes forever but you can polish out

You're better off practicing painting and not getting that orange peel.

I just polished the engine cover on my f40. Little orange peel hut not much. Because of the shape it took me an hour from 400 to 12000 and polish. This stuff takes time so you want to start with the smoothest finish possible

Edited September 1, 2014 by Quick GMC

[unclescott58]

Since Steve who started this tread mentioned he was new to model building, I need to give one warning about using lacquer paint. What ever you do, DO NOT spray lacquer over enamel paint. Even enamel primer. You can spray enamel over lacquer. That's okay. With most lacquer paints designed for plastic like Tamiya or Testor's One Coat Lacquer I don't even worry about using a primer coat. But, here you need to be careful too. Some lacquers are what they refer to as being "too hot" for plastic. You can use them, if you put down a primer coat first. But so far, with hobby lacquers like Tamiya's and Testor's I've found no problems. Other than the time I sprayed lacquer over an enamel primer.

Scott

Edited September 1, 2014 by unclescott58

[1hobby1]

I have a couple old model cars I built when I was really young (11-12years old I am now 22) and I plan on finishing this corvette and then practicing my painting techniques on these spare cars.
I have an Enamel Clear coat as well as the testors clear I will be trying both of them to see which I like better. I will also be working on my polishing as well!

Edited September 2, 2014 by 1hobby1

[Longbox55]

You've been given some excellent advice on getting a nice glossy finish, but something I notice that wasn't touched on that will also help is sanding and finishing out the primer before you apply any paint. The final finish will only be as good as what is under it, so making the primer as smooth as possible will go a long way to making the final finish better, and will reduce any work that would need to be done to the final finish. There a few different methods you can use, most will sand out the primer to a smooth, not necessarily glossy, finish using a polishing kit. Another method is to learn to spray the primer as smooth as possible, something I have yet to master fully, but it can be done.

A few pics of my own work with assorted finishes to show what I mean.

This one is all lacquer, Duplicolor primer sanded out to 3600, color coats are Duplicolor and Tamiya which were not sanded (the Duplicolor used are metallic), 2 different intercoat metallic clears, again, not sanded, and finally Duplicolor clear, which was polished out to 12000, then buffed with polishing compound and waxed. By sanding out the primer, especially on the roof, saved my lots of work to get the final results. Everything but the intercoat clears and the final clear was shot with spray cans.

Here's on that demonstrates both primer prep as well as what Bill had posted about using enamels. IIRC, I only went to about 800 grit on this one, basically made it smooth. Same primer as the van shown above. However, this one was done with enamel tractor paint, Massey Ferguson red and Massey Ferguson Gray, shot directly from the can. There has not been any sanding or polishing on this one.

Another shot of the same truck, before the second color was added. The gloss of the gray shows up better in this shot.

One last pic. This one was done with no sanding or polishing at all. The base is a buff color enamel tractor primer, which shot very smooth right out of the can. The color coats are Testors enamel, no final clearcoat, but the color itself was cut 50% with clear, as it has a very heavy load of pearl added to it.

[1hobby1]

Longbox55 : wow great work! Should I sand in between primer coats, or after the final coat of primer?

Thank you!

[Ace-Garageguy]

Longbox55 : wow great work! Should I sand in between primer coats, or after the final coat of primer?

Thank you!

In my experience, more than anything that depends on how much orange peel you get with each coat. If you can slick your primer out nice when spraying, you most likely don't need to sand until you have 3 coats laid down. If it's grainy and dry-sprayed, or orange-peeled at all, you need to sand after each coat.

Remember also to avoid heavy primer buildup, as it will obliterate fine details.

On my own work, if there's no bodywork to have to surface with primer, (other than removing mold parting lines and light sink-mark filling), I've found that after a thorough scrubbing with hot water, a toothbrush and Comet or a similar mild abrasive, 2 coats of Duplicolor SANDABLE (NOT HIGH-BUILD) primer should be sufficient to get a good surface for paint, but it will most likely need to be sanded with 800 grit (or finer) wet before color coats. Be CAREFUL around details, and high spots or creases on the body. If you shoot a perfect coat of primer that slicks out nicely, you can get away with a water-toothbrush-Comet scrub instead of sanding. This works well for getting into all the creases and crevices on a body without softening fine details like sanding will.

If you're using Duplicolor topcoats (color), you DO have to be careful of going through your primer when sanding. If you expose the bare plastic, I recommend more primer in that area. Make a mask so you don't get a lot of un-necessary primer on surrounding areas. The reason for local spot-priming if you sand through your primer is that Duplicolor is "hot" enough to craze some of the recent, cheapened styrene formulations that many kits are made of these days.

In some cases, the Duplicolor primer will craze or "pull up" the surface of the plastic too, especially in areas where mold-lines have been removed and the plastic surface has been significantly disturbed. Allowing the primer to dry thoroughly, wet-sanding with 600 and re-primering as necessary will kill the imperfections eventually.

[1hobby1]

This is all great advice I cant wait to put it all in to action and try out different methods. I just stripped a model with purple power, and have another in a container now. when the weather cooperates and I have some time to prime the car ill make sure to post some pictures! Thanks again guys!