Question for contest judges regarding non-scratchbuilt modifications

[Pete J.]

One of the major issues and I have seen several comments before this is additions to a basic kit. Yes, people can throw a lot of aftermarket stuff on a model and it looks like ######, but a skilled modeler will make additions to a model that will dramatically improve it. Mark Jones super 7's are a perfect example. Ultimately he has created masterpieces made with parts he created that the average model builder doesn't have either the skill or the equipment to create. It results in a supurb replica. He is getting credit for scratch building parts because they are done right. When it was done, there are not a lot of other models that could sit on the table and be competative. It would take another master years of work to achieve the same level. Building masterworks like that take years. There for you don't see them all that often and when they do show up, they clean up. The point is the modeler who take the time to learn the skills to scratch build properly has an advantage, but it is a skill advantage. That builder can do a better job of showing off the effort with documentation. Putting a binder on the table that highlights the effort can sway a decision and adds a wow factor when you see the effort. At this level it is hard to decide which model is best but All things being equal which almost never happens at this level the guy who documents the effort will generally get the advantage because he showes the effort he went to in creating the masterpiece.

[mademan]

I dont do contests plain and simple. I could care less what is scratchbuilt, or bought or whatever, as long as people are building and the hobby carrys on..... what does it really matter?

Ive entered 1 contest..... I built a kit, start to finish in 4 days. started it thursday night and did final assembly 15 minutes before I left for the show sunday morning..... won overall best of show... didnt think I deserved it, as it was box stock, with nice paint and a few tiny details. Goes to show, no matter what you put into it, or how much time or money is spent.....

I do build for myself, I dont feel that I need to enter contests to better myself, I browse many forums and look at other peoples builds and use their experiences/critisisms to better myself. some builds I spend months on, scratchbuilding everything and making sure everything is perfect.... the next ill toss a bunch of $ into detail items and parts and build...... the next might be a snap kit that I toss together box stock in an afternoon.....do what makes you happy, and build for yourself..... if someone beats you at a contest cause the overall execution is better, or gets more points...... w/e

[Terry Sumner]

Mike...got any pictures of that build? Always eager to see a BOS model!

[Danno]

Mike...got any pictures of that build? Always eager to see a BOS model!

Me, too! I'd love to see it, Mike.

Thanks in advance for posting it.

[mademan]

Ill snap a couple of pics tomorow when I get home..... it is in no way, even close to a best of show. Has decent paint ( not my best) foil work, which 90% of the other entrys didnt have., flocking, pegasus wire wheels, etc.

I still dont know why or how I won with it

[Fat Brian]

Ill snap a couple of pics tomorow when I get home..... it is in no way, even close to a best of show. Has decent paint ( not my best) foil work, which 90% of the other entrys didnt have., flocking, pegasus wire wheels, etc.

I still dont know why or how I won with it

It sounds like you were the one eyed man in a world of blind men.

[johnbuzzed]

You don't do contests, yet you entered a contest... Which is it?

[Pete J.]

I am getting a little annoyed at the use of the term “I build for myself” as if it were some sanctimonious act that the rest of us don’t engage in. All of us build for ourselves! Our purposes vary. Some build to enter contests, others for money, etc. There are a thousand good reasons to be creative but ultimately we all build because we enjoy some aspect of the hobby, thus it is for our own gratification. If you don’t do something else, please say so. “I don’t build to enter contest” or whatever else motivates you. Please!

[Jantrix]

I am getting a little annoyed at the use of the term “I build for myself” as if it were some sanctimonious act that the rest of us don’t engage in.

Yeah, I gotta agree with that. I often get that vibe from some folks, that people who do build to compete are somehow flawed.

[Chas SCR]

Pete, i think they mean is that they are builiding for there tast only. (ie like my cars) Lets a take a 32 ford high boy for example, You can take 10 kits and give 9 of them to diffrent people and 1 to me. Now 99% are going to build that kit as it was pre 1980 style (Rat rods fall in to the 80s or before style also) And I come off with some thing that looks like Chromzilla that is brought more into todays styling of custom hot rods or 1 off cars. To the judges this car because of some of the true ways of hiding the wires and things like they do in real life, does not work for them and they go to the pre 1980s stuff first and award that even if some flaws are show'n and such but they can see ie more detail. Now yes I can take a car and builid it like every one els or I can say hell with the judges and go my way of building it and do it for me and if the judges do not care for it then it's there choice not mine. I like what I build and also has help a lot of people figur out how to do things of todays customs and such and make a new build level for them to get to.

This is not to put down any ones style or building what they like.

[mademan]

You don't do contests, yet you entered a contest... Which is it?

holy, gonna interogate me now? some of you people are so immature, just waiting to jump on someone. I entered a few models to display. I did not want to be judged, this was at a 1:1 car show, in which a few friends had their highly modified vehicles at , and my 1:1 is not ready. I took a couple of my models to put on the table and show, they would not let me just put them there, they had to be in the contest. I drove an hour and a half with a box of fragile models, so I put them on the table.

as for the " I build for myself" comment that ruffled everyones feathers - I build the stuff I want, the way I want, and I could care less if its a subject that people will like, or if it will win a contest etc. At the end of the day, If I am satisfied then im doing good. I rarely post projects that I am working on, or even completed builds. I like to look at what others are building, sometimes for inspiration, to see what people are doing with a curent kit, etc. If you look back ive been here around 6 years, or so, and I have mabey posted 3-4 of my projects and builds.

I have seen what it does to people who build for contests..... if they dont win, it was flawed judging, or the other guy knows the judges, or this or that. People start building specifically to win and try and beat everyone else and it becomes un-fun. I like to build what makes me happy, and occasionaly I like to display it. I used to put a finished build or 2 in the case at the local hobby shop, and once a year the club that used to meet around here would have a display in the mall, however those days are gone.

Edited October 19, 2012 by mademan

[Ace-Garageguy]

Yeah, I gotta agree with that. I often get that vibe from some folks, that people who do build to compete are somehow flawed.

I gotta agree with this man's agreement. The other thing that chaps me is the notion that being a 'perfectionist' is also somehow flawed, like everyone should be satisfied with mediocrity and not strive for excellence.

[Harry P.]

When someone says "I build for myself," what they're saying is they don't try to build to some external sort of standard, like to win a contest, for example. They don't worry about pleasing the judges or being "better" than the other guys.

While it's true that some modelers don't compete in contests, and don't have that same desire to compete that contest guys do, I don't think that everyone who says they "build for themselves" is necessarily including a "contest guys are goofy" subtext. Maybe it's more like the contest guys assuming that the non-competitive builders look down their noses at them for some reason?

I know that I have absolutely no desire to compete in contests... I really do "build for myself." But that doesn't mean that I think someone who builds with the intent of competing against others is a bad guy! And I'm sure many (most) of us non-competitive modelers have no feelings of superiority over the contest-type guys.

[mademan]

When someone says "I build for myself," what they're saying is they don't try to build to some external sort of standard, like to win a contest, for example. They don't worry about pleasing the judges or being "better" than the other guys.

While it's true that some modelers don't compete in contests, and don't have that same desire to compete that contest guys do, I don't think that everyone who says they "build for themselves" is necessarily including a "contest guys are goofy" subtext. Maybe it's more like the contest guys assuming that the non-competitive builders look down their noses at them for some reason?

I know that I have absolutely no desire to compete in contests... I really do "build for myself." But that doesn't mean that I think someone who builds with the intent of competing against others is a bad guy! And I'm sure many (most) of us non-competitive modelers have no feelings of superiority over the contest-type guys.

EXACTLY the context that I used the phrase in. It doestn nessesarily mean that I dont try to build to the standard of guys that do build to compete.... as with many others I challenge myself to step out of my comfort zone, and try new things, new ways fo doing things etc. but at the end of the day I have built solely for personal satisfaction.

[bbowser]

I "build for myself" in this context but I also admire those that build for contests. It's hard to put your work out there for the world to see and judge, whether it's on a table or on-line on a forum.

[Harry P.]

I "build for myself" in this context but I also admire those that build for contests. It's hard to put your work out there for the world to see and judge, whether it's on a table or on-line on a forum.

But the difference between putting your model up against others in a contest or posting it here (to be judged by others), is that here, yeah, your work will be judged... but not necessarily in the context of whether or not it's "better" or "more worthy" of a prize than anyone else's work. Entering your work in a contest is by definition putting it up directly against the other guys work and letting the judges decide which one is the "best," according to whatever judging standards are used.

Posting on the forum isn't the same. Your work will be judged on its own merit and commented on, but not in relation to anyone else's posted work.

[sjordan2]

This started out as a very interesting thread about how contest judging is done, and we've had many experienced members share their backgrounds in that situation. However, it seems that this has now devolved into the 40-zillionth thread on "I build for myself" vs. "I like to enter contests (for a variety of reasons). Does anyone really care WHY someone builds? just show us your stuff (it's a judging contest every day on this forum) and use your finished build for whatever purposes you desire. Your reasons are your own and not of particular interest. I keep checking this thread to see if there's any more illumination about contest judging, but that seems to have gone bye-bye, and it's now clogged up by the same old useless rehash.

Edited October 19, 2012 by sjordan2

[Pete J.]

First off I wasn't pointing a finger at anyone in particular. I just dislike the use of that phrase to self discribe someone who builds for their own collection. My problem is that the phrase is so often used in this fashion. I build for myself, followed by some form of I don't do this or I don't do that. My point is that it is used indisciminently and followed by my modeling is differant from yours because I don't ... Well, we all build for ourself. I build some models that never get out of my work room. I build some for other people. I build some for competiton. I build some for instructional purposed. The point is that ultimately I get pleasure out of building all of them. Each way has it's own gratification so each is build in some way for what I get out of it. I build for myself. By the same token, I always build to my own standard. I get a great deal of pleasure out of building the next model better than the last but it is always about building for me. Nobody gets more pleasure out of my builds that I do. I build for myself.

In other words, say what you mean! I build for myself may mean something to you that it doesn't mean to anyone else and really doesn't convey what you are trying to communicate. Drop the phrase and say what it is that you do or don't do. We all build for ourselves in some fashion.

[sjordan2]

First off I wasn't pointing a finger at anyone in particular. I just dislike the use of that phrase to self discribe someone who builds for their own collection. My problem is that the phrase is so often used in this fashion. I build for myself, followed by some form of I don't do this or I don't do that. My point is that it is used indisciminently and followed by my modeling is differant from yours because I don't ... Well, we all build for ourself. I build some models that never get out of my work room. I build some for other people. I build some for competiton. I build some for instructional purposed. The point is that ultimately I get pleasure out of building all of them. Each way has it's own gratification so each is build in some way for what I get out of it. I build for myself. By the same token, I always build to my own standard. I get a great deal of pleasure out of building the next model better than the last but it is always about building for me. Nobody gets more pleasure out of my builds that I do. I build for myself.

In other words, say what you mean! I build for myself may mean something to you that it doesn't mean to anyone else and really doesn't convey what you are trying to communicate. Drop the phrase and say what it is that you do or don't do. We all build for ourselves in some fashion.

Yes, and you said it just as well in your earlier post.

[Pete J.]

First off I wasn't pointing a finger at anyone in particular. I just dislike the use of that phrase to self discribe someone who builds for their own collection. My problem is that the phrase is so often used in this fashion. I build for myself, followed by some form of I don't do this or I don't do that. My point is that it is used indisciminently and followed by my modeling is differant from yours because I don't ... Well, we all build for ourself. I build some models that never get out of my work room. I build some for other people. I build some for competiton. I build some for instructional purposes. The point is that ultimately I get pleasure out of building all of them. Each way has it's own gratification so each is build in some way for what I get out of it. I build for myself. By the same token, I always build to my own standard. I get a great deal of pleasure out of building the next model better than the last but it is always about building for me. Nobody gets more pleasure out of my builds that I do. I build for myself.

In other words, say what you mean! I build for myself may mean something to you that it doesn't mean to anyone else and really doesn't convey what you are trying to communicate. Drop the phrase and say what it is that you do or don't do. We all build for ourselves in some fashion.

[sjordan2]

First off I wasn't pointing a finger at anyone in particular. I just dislike the use of that phrase to self discribe someone who builds for their own collection. My problem is that the phrase is so often used in this fashion. I build for myself, followed by some form of I don't do this or I don't do that. My point is that it is used indisciminently and followed by my modeling is differant from yours because I don't ... Well, we all build for ourself. I build some models that never get out of my work room. I build some for other people. I build some for competiton. I build some for instructional purposes. The point is that ultimately I get pleasure out of building all of them. Each way has it's own gratification so each is build in some way for what I get out of it. I build for myself. By the same token, I always build to my own standard. I get a great deal of pleasure out of building the next model better than the last but it is always about building for me. Nobody gets more pleasure out of my builds that I do. I build for myself.

In other words, say what you mean! I build for myself may mean something to you that it doesn't mean to anyone else and really doesn't convey what you are trying to communicate. Drop the phrase and say what it is that you do or don't do. We all build for ourselves in some fashion.

As I said before, you speak he truth. But isn't this the same off-topic conversation that sent this thread on judging off the rails?

Edited October 19, 2012 by sjordan2

[Scale-Master]

Tell me again why it is perceived that someone can't build for themselves AND for entering in contests at the same time? I do just that with some of my models...

[CadillacPat]

I build to sell or to promote what I do so I can build more and sell more.

Winning contests at events took a back seat quickly to taking my Promotional Customs outside of the Model and Customizing Comunity to the world of business.

Everything I send out has to meet my strict criteria or it would not go out.

So I always design and build to suit myself but I get the extra benefit of seeing my Customs go out to people who are completely unaware of 1/64 scale Customizing.

The world out there is infinitely larger than the world in here.

More people see your stuff.

I don't see why anyone would put down Contests. it's a great way to meet other Modelers and gain new info.

I just prefer a larger audience.

CadillacPat

Edited October 19, 2012 by CadillacPat

[bbowser]

But the difference between putting your model up against others in a contest or posting it here (to be judged by others), is that here, yeah, your work will be judged... but not necessarily in the context of whether or not it's "better" or "more worthy" of a prize than anyone else's work. Entering your work in a contest is by definition putting it up directly against the other guys work and letting the judges decide which one is the "best," according to whatever judging standards are used.

Posting on the forum isn't the same. Your work will be judged on its own merit and commented on, but not in relation to anyone else's posted work.

You're making my point Harry, it's just a matter of degree. I respect those who will put a model on the table against others to be judged by others. If that's what motivates, go for it. I'm not saying that posting a build on a forum is the equivalent of entering a contest, but it is putting your work out there as opposed to going on the shelf never to be seen by anyone else, and there's nothing wrong with that either. Whatever works to keep building, learning, and getting better.

[Pete J.]

As I said before, you speak he truth. But isn't this the same off-topic conversation that sent this thread on judging off the rails?

Sorry, I actually tried to take this over to a separate thread, but the weird problems I am having with this web site (and it is only this one) wouldn’t let me post the new thread. Just like to post on an active thread I have to start with a quote from someone else and delete their text. I’ve given up reporting it. I don’t have any problems on the IPMS web site and it has the same moderator and the same format. Don’t know what is wrong but it has been ongoing for quite some time. Sorry for the inconvenience.