TDR Innovations 1/12 SBC single 4bbl carb setup on '69 Camaro engine

[brodie_83]

I ordered a SBC single 4bbl carb setup (intake manifold, Holley 4bbl carb, thermostat housing, and distributor) from TDR Innovations last week and it finally arrived! I bought it to install it on the 302 engine from the 1/12 '69 Camaro Z28 kit. I did a dry mock-up of how it will install, and it's actually pretty close! I'll have to modify the base of the engine assembly where the manifold will rest to make the manifold sit flush with the engine, but in the end I think it will work out! Oh yeah, and Shapeways company did a fantastic job with making this part, as did TDR in designing it! Very detailed indeed. Just some lines from the process of shaping the part that I have to sand out, but other than that, I'm very happy with it!

[TedsModeling]

I was wondering how the TDR engine options would work with kit blocks. I suppose it also depends on the kit manufacturer, as they differ a little in scale from one to another.

This should be a good build and I'm following.

[comp1839]

here's a little piece of information. the manifold will never fit any kit blocks and heads (except by extreme accident). the TDR heads and manifold are not conventional 23 degree parts. they are 18 degree raised port heads and manifold. i'm not sure the guys at TDR know that they have produced an 18 degree chevy small block head but, that's what it is. my advice would be to buy the heads and manifold together as they are a matching set.

in 1:1 these parts will not interchange.

now, if they'd only produce the splayed valve small block head..............that would be cool!!!!!!

[Prostreet]

Good to know dave, I know Tony (AJwheels) is working on a Dart intake also, I hinted at him about doing a procharger hehe.

[stump]

Brodie, great to see some more of TDR parts getting used.

That's a good point that Dave mentioned too, and something they may work on to help us "mate" them to factory kit parts.

I am sure that you will get it seating correctly though with some careful manipulating.

[TedsModeling]

Dave - I sent your comment and suggestion to TDR for review. I'll reply back here when I hear something.

[comp1839]

good to hear. let me know their response.

[TedsModeling]

They were actually anxious to look into it. They're now interested in making a Facebook page in order to get this kind of feedback, as well as announce new and upcoming items.

Dave - for my edification, If I was going to my local speedshop to buy a BBC manifold, would I have to tell them it's 18 or 23 degrees? What BBC engines would each be found on?

[comp1839]

let's start with the small block chevy, since that's what the topic is about. i won't go into this to much because they literally write books about small block chevy heads. yes, you would need to tell them if the heads are 18 or 23 degree. the number refers to the valve angle that is in the head not the angle on the intake face of the head. 23 degrees are what stock heads have. just because they're 23 degree though doesn't mean they all the same. you can have a raise port 23 degree. those would have a different manifold than a standard port 23 degree. most of what we are talking about is aftermarket stuff and doesn't come on any production engine. there are 10*, 15*, 18*, 23*, buick, pontiac, sb2, canted / splayed valve heads to name a few. there are tons more. all of these heads bolt onto a sbc block. almost none of the intakes will interchange.

then there the big block chevy..............

we could go on for days about this. if you want to know more. perhaps you should start a new thread on the subject. i'd be happy to give you input

[TedsModeling]

Thanks for covering the basics. I always appreciate your insight and how you relay that info to us, Dave.

I suppose for model building we have to deal with what we get in kits and/or aftermarket (except for a few here that have the ability to scratch build their components) and we'll only have to be concerned when we mix-match our parts - like Brodie is doing here. As long as we're discussing why these parts don't work, as Dave did, we're keeping in line with this thread, but I don't want to take away from this thread by getting away from the topic. I'll leave it up to others, if they want to delve further into this and start a new thread.

[comp1839]

not a problem, ted. the people that would be most interested and benefit from this are the guys who work in the bigger scales. some of the details in the cyl. heads i've mentioned become really evident in the bigger scales. so for me, at least, it's important to know what's/ what and who fits what.\

for instance i see TDR just made a new big block tunnel ram. beautiful piece. only thing is, it's only appropriate for chevy symmetrical port pro stock heads or maybe olds symmetrical port pro stock heads. it's not correct for the siamesed stock big block head. so,.......devil is all in the details. if you build for fun and none of this matters, that's fine. but,......if the details count then you need to know this stuff.

Edited November 26, 2012 by comp1839

[ajwheels]

for instance i see TDR just made a new big block tunnel ram. beautiful piece. only thing is, it's only appropriate for chevy symmetrical port pro stock heads or maybe olds symmetrical port pro stock heads. it's not correct for the siamesed stock big block head. so,.....

And for this reason, TDR offers the symmetrical port head for the big-block Chevrolet.............

Indeed, the devil is in the details....................

Tony

[comp1839]

indeed, tony. i was simply stating that so your customers would know that if they bought the manifold, they should buy the heads. so they don't have a problem like brodie did. there is no mention of these mis-match possibilities on the website.

[brodie_83]

They didn't say that the manifold would fit the Monogram 302 block/heads...it was a gamble on my part, and the slightly bigger size manifold with different degrees between the heads and manifold are just small details I can most likely fix myself. If I dont feel like doing it, i'll just blow more money on the actual 350 engine from TDR.

[TedsModeling]

The only SBC heads TDR offers is the standard head, with the engine pack, and the standard head with uber detail (more for diorama use).

I was informed by TDR that the optional Symetric Port heads for the BBC are only different in the location of the intake ports and the location of the 'pre-drilled' bolt holes. Once the head is glued to the block, you don't see these differences.

It seems like if you want the TDR SBC or BBC induction to match the heads, you'd have to purchase the TDR engine that includes the heads and then you'd know it would all fit together. Otherwise it's a matter of making it fit.

Mark Johnson said he'll be issuing a SBC at some point down the road. He already has a BBC available.

Edited November 29, 2012 by TedsModeling

[comp1839]

that's very disappointing to hear, ted. for a number of reasons. a company that i believed to be committed to correct detail doesn't know the difference between a raised port small block chevy head and insists on calling it standard. the parts will never fit a standard head.......ever.

also the symmetrical port big block chevy head is not the same physical dimensions as standard bbc head. they are taller. so, the symetrical port manifold should NOT fit a standard head. the fact that it does leans to the fact something is incorrect.

i believe for the rather pricey parts that TDR produces. they should be correct to their 1:1 counterparts. to hear that they are drawing / producing generic "sorta close" parts really saddens me.

[TedsModeling]

Dave - I'll find out, but I believe the stock SBC is just that - stock. I don't know where the raised port came in. I'm sorry if it was me that confused the issue. You mentioned the different degree valves and I wasn't sure where that fit in with the stock TDR engine.

Their BBC engine also starts out as stock and options are available to make it completely stock (single 4bbl, stock intake manifold and equal flow headers) to something more race ready (blown, dual turbos, tunnel ram dual quads, different headers). These 3D items are designed off of actual blue prints for sizing.

Their BBC 'performance heads', I've been told are only different from the stock heads as I described earlier. I need to look into these some more.

So we don't get off track and I'm looking for the wrong info, what is it you need to know and I'll get answers?

[comp1839]

ted, i appreciate your effort but, there is no need to continue trying to straighten anything out. tony, has made it quite clear that accuracy or correctness doesn't matter to him or TDR and i quote:

".anyone that assumes that TDR product is correct or exact to the original is seriously mistaken and will be very disappointed"

for me, this just makes TDR more high priced parts. i'm sorry i tried to help straighten out an in-accuracy in their parts. obviously they are happy with it.

[ajwheels]

Unfortunately, there are times when these forum posts prompt misunderstandings and a time is reached where further discussion only leads to further misunderstandings……….and now, a comment in a PM of mine is taken out of context and put here, which will only take this deeper down a hole……….

Seems to me that the fact that someone was able to take a TDR scale cylinder head and determine that it’s valve angle is 18 degrees as opposed to 23 degrees tells you a lot about the attention to detail in that part………but there is no way that it is an exact reproduction of the real 1:1 part……………

Please feel free to PM me if you would like to talk further about these issues………those who have taken the time to do that have seen that I am more than willing to explain the process we use in creating these parts………….

Tony

[brodie_83]

the main reason I posted this is for the simple fact that I had never seen a single carb SBC setup in a 1/12 scale car and figured I'd be the guinea pig and try out the TDR Innovatiins setup in hopes that it would work with little to no modifications, and proves that there is indeed some modifications to be made to make it work, but I'm ok with that. I was just trying to show people that with some modification, people can have a different intake setup in their 1/12 '69 Camaro engine bays.

As far as the "inaccuracies" in their parts, I dont really see any, and if they do infact have some...who cares? This hobby is never going to produce 100% accurate parts and/or kits. It's our job to do the best we can, and TDR is no different. Their customer service is absolutely top notch and try to bring high-quality parts to the public so we can expand our builds and the hobby itself. I have only dealt with Tim from TDR, but he was very honest and helped me pick out the right materials and such. I give them an A+ for customer service...can't get much better than that!

[TedsModeling]

Dave - you're in a position that very few of us are. You actually work on race cars and know all about the products and technology and your excellent model detail reflects that. I will probably never see a Mark Williams 11" rear end in person, but I know from what's available to us, the TDR reproduction is a thing of beauty.

This is a photo of a 1/8 scale TDR rear end with the disc brake and hard mount options.

Their turbo chargers show the turbine veins, bolt holes are provided in heads, header flanges, pulleys and many other parts, their 4bbl Holly is a thing of beauty for 1/16 scale. There are many quality resin products available, but most don't have nearly the detail of TDR items. Are any of these products (especially from the kit manufacturers) true to life? I doubt it. But can I tell the difference? I just want as much detail in the parts I can get to make it look realistic to me. TDR and a few resin guys do it.

[comp1839]

ted, let me ask you a question. that's a mark williams 11 in rear, right? did you know that mark williams makes a 9 inch rear? are they both rears? why, yes. are they both mark williams rears? most certainly. do they look the same? absolutely not. do they perform the same? absolutely not.
but, that's something you happen to know about. so of course they're not the same. the same goes for these heads. while you think the only difference is the valve angle. it is only the thing that is used to i.d. the head. just like an 11inch is not a 9 inch rear.

so, are both of these things cyl. head? yes. are they both chevy cyl. heads? yes. again that's where the similarities end. the physical size of the heads are different ( the 18 being much taller). the port locations are different (the 18 intake port location is changed and the 18 exhaust port location is changed). even the intake mounting surface angle is changed (from 10 degrees to 5 degrees on the 18).

you say that you just want enough detail to make it look realistic to you. well those heads are as different, to me, as the two rears i just mentioned. just because you haven't learned the differences in the heads that makes it o.k.? how about all of you take a few minutes and do a google search on the heads and learn the differences. all i asked was to have the wording on the part changed to reflect the actual part that is there.

[DaytonaTim]

Guys, we really need to show Brodie a little more respect for his thread. It is his thread about his build, it really is not about the accuracy of TDR's parts.

If someone wants to start a separate thread discussing how TDR does its thing, the guys at TDR would be more than happy to join in.

I post this comment not because I think I have some authority on MCM site (heck I don't even think I have any authority in my own house)........ but because I feel bad that a possible error on my part caused this thread to run off on some tangent subject.

Let's get the thread back on Brodie's build, OK?

[blunc]

I second this, start a new thread if you want to discuss the merits of TDR parts and let them respond.

[Jordan White]

Were you able to get the intake to fit properly? If so, any pics? I'm thinking about doing this myself and would like to see how it turns out.

I ordered a SBC single 4bbl carb setup (intake manifold, Holley 4bbl carb, thermostat housing, and distributor) from TDR Innovations last week and it finally arrived! I bought it to install it on the 302 engine from the 1/12 '69 Camaro Z28 kit. I did a dry mock-up of how it will install, and it's actually pretty close! I'll have to modify the base of the engine assembly where the manifold will rest to make the manifold sit flush with the engine, but in the end I think it will work out! Oh yeah, and Shapeways company did a fantastic job with making this part, as did TDR in designing it! Very detailed indeed. Just some lines from the process of shaping the part that I have to sand out, but other than that, I'm very happy with it!