Formula 1 with larger diameter wheels

[Phildaupho]

Michelin is promoting a return to F1 if there is a shift to modern larger diameter wheels and lower profile tires which have been used on Le Mans race-cars for a number of years. I have been in favor of this for a long time and built a model to reflect how an F1 car would look almost a decade ago. F1 would of course have to make regulation changes to suspension and braking specifications with this change. The model is based on a 1/24 Revell of Germany Williams with parts-box wheels & tires and home-made decals
Hosted on Fotki
Hosted on Fotki

Edited May 23, 2015 by Phildaupho

[afx]

Yea the FIA has opened a tyre tender for the 2017-2019 seasons. Michelin is pushing for a return to F1 provided that the wheels grow from the current 13" rims to 17-18" rims. Pirelli provide some 18" wheels last year to Lotus for a test. I'm not completely sold on the idea.

[dublin boy]

I'm sure wholesale suspension revisions would be needed too, the current "high profile" tyres are providing some compliance, where these won't.

The idea was mooted years ago, but the then sole provider to F1 said they could do it, but there was no prior experience/information to base calculations on, so development costs would rocket.

What was the result from the Lotus test do you know JC?

Edited May 23, 2015 by dublin boy

[ERIK88]

What is the purpose of larger diameter rims on race cars? F1 cars are going to run around looking like donks, will they have a sound system?

[slusher]

Very cool build..

[Draggon]

Nice model, even though I dont like the concept. Those are among my favorite wheels for tuners, but somehow I cannot wrap my mind around them on an F-1. Must be too old....

Edited May 23, 2015 by Draggon

[Dave Van]

I like the 13" rims and the limits it forces......but I have not like F1 cars for years.....so little difference.

[afx]

Analysis: What 18-inch wheels mean for F1

By Craig Scarborough Thursday, July 10th 2014, 14:30 GMT

Lotus ran a car fitted with 18-inch wheels during the Silverstone Formula 1 test yesterday, in what could be the first step in a move to low-profile tyres as early as 2016.

Such a move would largely be for cosmetic and commercial reasons because 13-inch wheel-rims as currently used in F1 are largely used only in the budget end of the production car market.

The regulations mandating 13-inch rims in F1 are a legacy of a rule introduced to prevent teams fitting larger-diameter wheels to allow bigger brake discs. As brake disc size is now regulated, this is no longer a concern.

The overall size of the 18-inch tyre tested by Lotus yesterday remains the same, which means that the sidewalls were significantly lower.

Pirelli would like to bring in slightly larger wheels of 19/20 inches with even lower-profile tyres, although there is a limitation to how far you can go.

"For integrity reasons you still want a relatively tall sidewall," said Pirelli motorsport director Paul Hembery.

"Such are the lateral loads being passed from the tread into the wheel via the sidewalls, that geometry of very short sidewalls will make them want to pull off the rim in turns."

SUSPENSION

If the sport chooses to go in this direction it will have a big impact technically.

From onboard shots, we can see the tyre accounts for a large proportion of the car's suspension travel.

Going for a lower profile tyre will mean the car's suspension will have to account for the lost tyre compliance. This means it will have to be softer, with longer travel.

But the flipside of this is that currently the teams have no control over the compliance of the tyres, so larger wheels will give more influence over a car's total suspension compliance.

BRAKES

Currently, the brake discs and ducts fill the inside of the wheel with only tiny amount of clearance and the FIA is unlikely to want to allow larger brakes even though larger wheel rims could accommodate them.

But allow brake duct bodywork to fill the larger wheel is likely to create more aerodynamic performance from the car.

Either, larger discs and smaller calipers could be regulated to fill the wheels for a similar braking performance, or the current disc and duct size could be retained.

Teams also use the close proximity of the wheel and brake to tune the heat transfer from the carbon discs to the tyres through the wheel. With a large gap this tuning option will be lost.

These effects mean that teams will need significant notice ahead of the introduction of the new tyres, given the work that will need to be done on suspension, aerodynamics and brakes.

Edited May 23, 2015 by afx

[kruleworld]

They'd look just like Formula E (electric)

[Zoltan]

Martin Brundle completes demonstration run of GP2 car with 18 inch Pirelli tyres

Edited May 24, 2015 by Zoltan

[afx]

Pirelli doubts F1 will adopt low-profile tyres Pirelli is not expecting Formula One to adopt low-profile tyres in the future, despite demonstrating 18-inch wheel rims on a GP2 car in Monaco.

The possibility of a switch to low-profile tyres has been discussed for some time and last year Pirelli produced a test tyre to illustrate what an F1 car on 18-inch wheels would look like. But despite other single-seater series looking to develop low-profile tyres, Pirelli thinks F1 will stick with the familiar high sidewalls and 13-inch rims albeit with wider tread at the rear.

"I've got a feeling we'll end up with a much wider tyre, but on a 13-inch rim," Pirelli motorsport boss Paul Hembery said. "That's my feeling for the direction we are going."

Pirelli's rival manufacturer Michelin recently said low-profile tyres would be one of the conditions for it entering the sport in the future, while Pirelli insists it will remain open to satisfying F1's needs.

"We are quite pleased with the decision to move to a 420mm-width tyre, we feel that gives a very big visual impact. Today we make tyres for high performance cars much wider than the ones in F1, so that makes it a little bit more visually important.

"The hole in the middle? 13-inch, 18-inch or 19-inch, they need to decide what they want to do. There are two schools of thought: go towards 18- or 19-inch because it's closer to road cars and another school of thought that all of our other current circuit tyres are 18-inch so, bizarrely, keeping 13-inch differentiates F1 from what everyone else is doing.

"I think the marketing department would like to keep 13-inch and a nice big sidewall for the branding, which we don't have to pay for - every cloud has a silver lining! We will do what the sport wants and we will try and find solutions to what they want."

Hembery said the cost of developing a car for low-profile tyres, the added weight of the larger rims and the overall look of the tyres are the main reasons the sport is against abandoning the current tyres.

"The rims are 4.5 kilos more per corner than before on he GP2 car, so the unsprung mass is dramatically more - it's a big wheel. There's cost, but also the belief that Formula One should have a certain type of look, so it does look like an F1 car.

"The tyres have defined that for a great many years now and I don't think there will ever be a perfect solution to that. Would we [Pirelli] sell more tyres by having 19-inch tyres in F1? Probably not, in reality."

Edited June 1, 2015 by afx

[Phildaupho]

Thanks AFX for keeping us up to date on this issue. Pirelli makes a lot of good points in your recent post.

[RAMBENNA]

very nice

[afx]

Thanks AFX for keeping us up to date on this issue. Pirelli makes a lot of good points in your recent post.

Phil, I apologize for hijacking your thread. I'll stop posting F1 updates here and start a new thread for future information.

[PatW]

I live in the motor racing triangle in the UK with Red Bull 12 miles, Mercedes 6 miles and Force India 5 miles away.

None of them are particularly happy with this possible change of regulation.

For the chassis and the driver a far more bumpy ride with the lower profile tyres, when the ride/suspension is already stiff enough.

Also with the present higher wall tyres the wheels themselves especially the rears are 'inside' the tyre, so less damage when banging wheels with others.

Extra cost of manufacture of both the wheels and tyres as no manufacturer has numbers to use.

Plus a disagreement by the FIA last week on bringing in multiple tyre suppliers, so still only Pirelli. Therefore the same problem as a few years ago with tyre development, compounds, hard rubber, soft rubber, intermediates, full wets(try and cut a deep, tread to disperse water with much less tyre rubber depth on the carcass.

This is just another 'idea' that the FIA is hoping will spice up an already boring formula.

By the way super model Phil.

Edited June 4, 2015 by PatW