technical questions about T.F. dragster engines

[fiatboy]

Is there a term for that stick-like thing coming out of the front of a T. F. engine? I guess it involves the oil and fuel pumps.

[DrKerry]

Is there a term for that stick-like thing coming out of the front of a T. F. engine? I guess it involves the oil and fuel pumps.

That'd be the fuel pumps to the best of my knowledge.

[Prostreet]

Is there a term for that stick-like thing coming out of the front of a T. F. engine? I guess it involves the oil and fuel pumps.

If your referring to the 2 gold things in the attached picture, they would be the dual fuel pumps. The oil pump is on the side of the block.

[fiatboy]

Beautiful photo, prostreet. I wonder if the dual fuel pumps could be relocated to reduce the overall length of the engine?

[Pro Wrench]

Beautiful photo, prostreet. I wonder if the dual fuel pumps could be relocated to reduce the overall length of the engine?

Not likely. They are driven off the front of the engine.

[ScaleDale]

Here's the same set up on a FC motor. Fuel pump driven off the crank shaft. TF style motors love their juice.

Dale

[comp1839]

just to clarify. the fuel pump is driven off the camshaft not the crankshaft. .

Edited November 1, 2013 by comp1839

[ScaleDale]

just to clarify. the fuel pump is driven off the camshaft not the crankshaft. .

I see that now from the earlier photo.

Dale

[comp1839]

I see that now from the earlier photo.

Dale

glad to hear that, dale.

[Force]

Of course you can relocate the fuel pumps to reduce engine length, they are as said driven from the camshaft on a Nitro and Alcohol engine in drag racing as there are no space issues there, but they could be driven by a belt from a crankshaft pulley and mounted somewhere else on or near the engine.

[Dave Labs]

When I used to work with Brent Fanning on his Nitro Funny Car & our Top Fuelers, he ran what was called a "Scott Pump". It was a smaller pump that was in fact run off of a pully which allowed it to be lower in the car. I can't really remember the theory behind the pump, but that's what we ran. None of the cars ever really set the world on fire - it was basically a match race tune-up. The best the Funny Car ran with that pump was something like low 5.20's at 288 MPH back at the 1998 NHRA Topeka Race.

[comp1839]

you could shorten the pump assy. by simply running a one pump setup (seen below). the twin waterman pumps, in the first pic, are pretty much a nitro only set up. since, in your other thread you made mention of running alcohol or gas. the twin pumps would be too much for either of those fuels. perhaps you could give some more info as to what it is you're trying to build so the answers would be more helpful.

[fiatboy]

Good to hear from you, 'sweden'! I plan on building a salt-racer. I have purchased an aftermarket engine from Gibson Engines, the "Sonny's Supermax". Maybe I could convert to liquid-cooling by constructing 4 waterjacket takeoffs as in some Pontiac engines. The 4 cooling ports could be: 2 off the front of the heads, and 2 somewhere off the block. Does this sound plausible at all? Somewhere I got the idea that the Donovan engines used liquid cooling. Any comments perhaps? Go ahead, let me have it! Don't hold nothing back!

[Daddyfink]

Depends on which Donovan Engines you are looking at. Fuel Engines based on the Chrysler 392 had no cooling provisions. Then there are the other blocks based on the BBC and the SBC that do have cooling jackets.

[comp1839]

i don't recall if the donovan 417 was ever produced with provisions for water. i know the heads were. since you are building a salt car why are you worried about water? i'm not a salt flat expert but, here is a pic of a nitro injected hemi in a salt car and i see no provisions for any water. i've ssen quite a few other cars with solid billet blocks and heads in salt cars.

the sonny's engine you are refferencing couild easily be made to use water. water in through the standard water pump holes in the block and return through the front of the heads.

in today's world of cnc blocks. having a custom billet block made with water provisions is only a call away form one of the many cnc block manufactuerer's. i'm sure for the right price the new billet donovan 417 block could be produced with water provisions. since this is a model. your imagination can run wild even using real world standards as a guide.

[Ace-Garageguy]

. since you are building a salt car why are you worried about water? i'm not a salt flat expert but, here is a pic of a nitro injected hemi in a salt car and i see no provisions for any water. i've ssen quite a few other cars with solid billet blocks and heads in salt cars.

Are any of the cars running LSR events with NO cooling system actually setting records or finishing their runs?

Whereas a TF engine only has to hold together for a quarter mile at full output, an LSR engine has to hold together for SEVERAL MILES at full power, and then has to be capable of making a return run at very close to the same speed, in order to verify the record. The return run has to be done within a specified time window.

LSR / dry lakes / Bonneville cars did away with radiators early on due to aerodynamic drag constraints (as early as 1929, the Golden Arrow ran iced-water in internal tanks ...no radiator) but continued to run on-board water tanks, circulating water through the engines to avoid meltdown.

I respectfully suggest that attempting to run an LSR vehicle with NO provision for internal cooling, unless perhaps the block, heads and pistons are machined from titanium billets, is a sure recipe for turning a high-dollar engine into a worthless heap of slag.

I could be missing some information, and my opinion here could be wrong. Any successful Bonneville engine builders in the audience ??

Edited November 5, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[comp1839]

bill, here are some facts about danny thompson's streamliner. you know.... the son of mickey thompson? i hope that's good enough for you. please note the first bullet.

Below are some facts about the Streamliner:

• The engines are dry blocks (waterless), which means all of the cooling is provided by the fuel. A single run will consume approximately 50 gallons of nitro blend fuel.
• The car ends its runs nearly 500 pounds lighter due to fuel consumption.
• The tires are a prototype nylon weave backed with banded steel. There is only 1/32 of an inch of rubber. These tires are custom made by Mickey Thompson Tires.
• Primary stopping power is provided by dual parachutes. Four carbon fiber disk brakes provide a second level of speed reduction.

here's link to the whole article. http://www.dragzine.com/news/video-danny-thompsons-sights-set-for-bonneville-to-break-world-lsr/

there are quite a few guys running billet no water blocks. i said i was no expert. i didn't say, i didn't do any research. where did you get your information from? respectfully, it is wrong.

[comp1839]

i thought the engine that danny thompson is using looked like a little eye candy to me. so here's a pic of it.

you were asking about a donovan block earlier. i didn't find a donovan block motor for you but, i did find this unique half hemi. it is literally an early hemi with a bmt cyl. head on it. again, i found no provision for water in this unique little motor.

[Muncie]

hope I'm OK stepping into the middle of this...

Have some guys in the area with salt in their blood - it's uncurable. Decades of Bonneville experience among them. They've been building an incredible streamliner - two KB's, 4WD - a work of mechanical art - water in the blocks that's circulated to a seperate tank for each engine. Make that polished stainless steel tanks. The reservoirs provide some cooling for the engines and a bit of ballast - Although Bonneville is like a long drag race, the weight helps more than it hurts. www.target550.com

There is a lot of good construction information for many other salt flat cars in the build diaries at www.landracing.com

[comp1839]

steve, there's nothing to step into.....or around....... or over. i know there are salt cars with coolant. some one was convinced that ALL of these cars MUST have coolant. that just isn't correct. great info.

if you look closely at the yellow roadster chassis. it has a a KB block in it.

Edited November 7, 2013 by comp1839

[fiatboy]

Man, I cannot thank you guys enough! Super photos. I hope to print out some of the pages from this thread. I tell people, the real car-guys and -girls are the model car builders!

[fiatboy]

I think I will be going the water cooled way. I will add water-ports (4). I have narrowed a '67 427 Impala body by about 4 cm. I may alter the roofline, but other wise keep the profile stock. I realize I owe 'yall some photos.

[comp1839]

sounds like a great build jeff. keep us informed.

[MitchP]

If your referring to the 2 gold things in the attached picture, they would be the dual fuel pumps. The oil pump is on the side of the block.

Hi:

I can pretty much gather some good photo info to build a nitro fuel system for my HOT ROD Mustang (a.k.a. Kalitta incognito), however, I've seen some pretty nice builds with the above kind of single and twin MSD mags (distributors?). Does anyone here know where I can buy these, complete or resin build-ups? I've just burned myself out on a Iaconia P/S build with all the details I added. I just want to make a clean build out of this flopper with a few mods: an MSD box, the mags, fuel cell/pump/rear hat block and the hard alum wires to feed the injectors.

Thanks and any further help or corrections in my plans are welcome!

[Force]

I'm a little late to reply as I have been busy with other things.

But as many here have said...and I myself...nitro and alcohol aftermarket engine blocks för drag racing purposes has no water jackets, not even the early Donovan 392 based 417 that came 1971 and the early Keith Black 426 based block that came 1973, they are solid blocks to be as strong as possible and that has been the way ever since.

In the early days they used iron production blocks wich of course had waterjackets, later when the aftermarket blocks came they still had water jackets in the cylinder heads to cool them...and in many photos from the early to mid 70's you see one water filling neck on each head, but they did away with that later and the heads are also solid billet pieces machined from a lump of aluminum and they use the large ammount of fuel injected to the engine as the only coolant nowadays.
I have seen the process myself when I visited and got a tour of the John Force Racing Headquarters in Yorba Linda, CA in 2003 (before he moved everything except administration and museum to Brownsburg, IN), I was told that each cylinder head took 40 hours in a CNC milling machine and further 8 hours of manual work on it to get a finished product.

However, this is a hobby where we build models and you can do whatever you want with your model, so if you want your engine to be watercooled that's okay with me, who knows, you could have an aftermarket block with water jackets specially made for you...no one can tell the difference and mostly everything is possible...it's all up to your imagination.

The Sid Waterman Mega Bertha fuel pump from the first photo in this thread is a bit "overkill" for a salt flats engine as it pumps 116 gallons per minute @ 600 PSI of pressure and would drench any engine except for a nitro motor, but there are smaller capacity pumps you can use instead, they looks like that but are a bit shorter...and are red.

Waterman (and some others) also has belt driven fuel pumps and even cable driven fuel pumps wich allows you to put the pump virtually anywhere on the chassis..

Edited November 9, 2013 by Force