Show/Contest Judges - Touch Or No Touch?

[Chuck Most]

Let a stranger touch my models? Why I think not!

You might as well be asking if you can touch my daughter. Well, you know, if I had a daughter. Which I don't.

As far as I know...

[jbwelda]

i think to deal with everyones little pecularities a better rule would be: if you allow your car to be handled, it will be judged in all categories and get points in all categories. if you do NOT allow your car to be handled and its not displayed in a way you can see the undercarriage for instance, then you dont get points for the undercarriage portion.

most points wins, so of course it behooves the entrant to have his whole car judged.

there are problems there too: if you got the hood up to see the motor, how does the judge know it sits level when closed?

the secret is to not take it too serious and dont blow a blood vessel, eg:

>I was 12 when it happened, the Teacher EVEN KNEW who took it, an DIDN'T do ANYTHING about it! ( other than to say, "Oh, I

>thought it was HIS!!!") NEVER entered another contest EVER!!!!!

c'mon man, einstein didnt invent evolution for nothing.

[chris coller]

I would flip out and probably break someone's arm if they had picked up my model and dropped. The money , the time, research all that. I agree with displaying the models properly so all angles can be judged. If a builder super details a model it is up to the builder to display it properly. Plain and simple! No judge should ever handle a builders model. Just my opinion and disagree all you want. "Touch my stuff and I'll kill ya" "Calm down Francis" Obviously I am going overboard on the arm breaking, but I would be more than maaaaaaaaaad.

[seeker589]

I would flip out and probably break someone's arm if they had picked up my model and dropped. The money , the time, research all that. I agree with displaying the models properly so all angles can be judged. If a builder super details a model it is up to the builder to display it properly. Plain and simple! No judge should ever handle a builders model. Just my opinion and disagree all you want. "Touch my stuff and I'll kill ya" "Calm down Francis" Obviously I am going overboard on the arm breaking, but I would be more than maaaaaaaaaad.

Thanks for clearing up the whole arm breaking thing.

Being mad at someone is a very valid emotion if they were to cause damage to a model you built. Causing someone painful harm in reaction to that damage is very unacceptable. How you deal with that anger is how character is measured.

There is a satisfaction in not allowing disasters like the damage of a model bother you -the reward is being able to solve the problem and deal with the emotion without over-reacting.

My wife has told me time and again - "You CHOOSE to be angry or not-angry." Mood and reactions are chosen.

Any subject that involves emotion, like contact or damage done to a model, is a very touchy subject. Much like faith.

[E St. Kruiser50]

Thank Everyone for your input and very good discussion.

How is judging at the GSLMCC done?

Mark insists that handling is a requirement for judging properly.

When I took the Hollywood Graham there in 2007, and put a don't touch sign next to it, Mark tried to be polite, but was definetly "Ruffled" .

Marks funny. Once he calmed down, everything was fine, and I won.

Contestants aren't always the only one's with attitude when the pressure's on.

Oh, about the across the board contest rules for every event no matter where - NEVER HAPPEN.

TOO MANY DIFFERENT IDEA'S ABOUT HOW THEY SHOULD BE RUN.

Edited January 16, 2010 by Treehugger Dave

[seeker589]

i think to deal with everyones little pecularities a better rule would be: if you allow your car to be handled, it will be judged in all categories and get points in all categories. if you do NOT allow your car to be handled and its not displayed in a way you can see the undercarriage for instance, then you dont get points for the undercarriage portion.

most points wins, so of course it behooves the entrant to have his whole car judged.

there are problems there too: if you got the hood up to see the motor, how does the judge know it sits level when closed?

the secret is to not take it too serious and dont blow a blood vessel, eg:

>I was 12 when it happened, the Teacher EVEN KNEW who took it, an DIDN'T do ANYTHING about it! ( other than to say, "Oh, I

>thought it was HIS!!!") NEVER entered another contest EVER!!!!!

c'mon man, einstein didnt invent evolution for nothing.

So what you are saying is "Those who trust the judges have an advantage over those who don't trust anyone but themselves." Risk can have great reward.

Is it trust issues or separation anxiety that causes people to not wanna touch their stuff?

Those that prefer not to have judges touch their models - do you loan any tools when a neighbor or fellow modeler needs something?

[Smart-Resins]

I have judged contests. I will put it like this. If your model is so so, we dont need to pick it over. If you are the best hands down, we dont need to pick over it. If there are two or three or more models that are all say museum quality, then how the heck are we supposed to choose? Only by getting down right on the model and checking in it and under it. Suggestion. You dont want a judge to pick it up, bring it with a good mirroed display so the judges dont have to pick it up. Simple! I personally would be upset if someone stole or broke my model yes. But it is also common knowledge when you go that those things may happen and you enter knowing that!! Likewise, if you enter a model without a mirrored display and it is worth having to check out, expect someone to have to pick it up. So another words, y you enter it at your risk, so do what it takes to minimize those risks and help your model get judged better! Jody

[seeker589]

Mark insists that handling is a requirement for judging properly.

When I took the Hollywood Graham there in 2007, and put a don't touch sign next to it, Mark tried to be polite, but was definetly "Ruffled" .

Marks funny. Once he calmed down, everything was fine, and I won.

Contestants aren't always the only one's with attitude when the pressure's on.

Oh, about the across the board contest rules for every event no matter where - NEVER HAPPEN.

TOO MANY DIFFERENT IDEA'S ABOUT HOW THEY SHOULD BE RUN.

I must come out and say that I agree with Mark Gus-----n on this. Sorry.

I don't agree with penalizing those that don't want their models touched by docking points for unseen areas, however. This would come back to how it is displayed.

About the standard rules never happening due to too many Ideas on how contests should be run - I think this is a demonstration of the previously mentioned Testosterone.

Edited January 16, 2010 by seeker589

[seeker589]

I have judged contests. I will put it like this. If your model is so so, we dont need to pick it over. If you are the best hands down, we dont need to pick over it. If there are two or three or more models that are all say museum quality, then how the heck are we supposed to choose? Only by getting down right on the model and checking in it and under it. Suggestion. You dont want a judge to pick it up, bring it with a good mirroed display so the judges dont have to pick it up. Simple! I personally would be upset if someone stole or broke my model yes. But it is also common knowledge when you go that those things may happen and you enter knowing that!! Likewise, if you enter a model without a mirrored display and it is worth having to check out, expect someone to have to pick it up. So another words, y you enter it at your risk, so do what it takes to minimize those risks and help your model get judged better! Jody

Very well put! Now I know why it is SMART-resins.

[Jeff Sauber]

Wanna freak out the judges who like to pick stuff up?

Don't attach the chassis, or interiors to the bodies, and as soon as an over-eager judge goes in for a "hands on inspection" and feels the car's sub-assemblies begin to seperate, he'll be put that car right the heck back down!!......

Personally, whenever I display my work, I use a custom display base that I fabricated along with mirrors, so theres no need to fingerprint the hell out of my cars by touching them and trying to get a peek up their skirts.....

I spend a couple hours polishing out my finishes, so I'll be darned if someone is gonna come along a feel up my merchandise and leave great big globs of greasy grimy paw prints everywhere, or accidently cause parts to come loose or whatever.

Edited January 16, 2010 by J. Sauber

[E St. Kruiser50]

Lot's of opinions here, but there is a BOTTOM LINE ( At least to me ) when entering a contest.

(1) If you don't like what the people do that run the contest - SIMPLE- don't enter.

(2) If winning comes before having a good time, then you're building for the wrong reason - GET ANOTHER HOBBY.

LASTLY, this is about the umteenth time this topic has come up over the years, with everyone sharing their opinions, including those never ever close to a contest ???? , and the same exact opinions always surface from a new group of people, then the topic goes away and we go on with our modeling as if this topic never came up .

Not saying it shouldn't be discussed, or beat to death again , just funny how some things never change,

INCLUDING CONTEST RULES AND JUDGING .

[CAL]

Wanna freak out the judges who like to pick stuff up?

Don't attach the chassis, or interiors to the bodies, and as soon as an over-eager judge goes in for a "hands on inspection" and feels the car's sub-assemblies begin to seperate, he'll be put that car right the heck back down!!......

Personally, whenever I display my work, I use a custom display base that I fabricated along with mirrors, so theres no need to fingerprint the hell out of my cars by touching them and trying to get a peek up their skirts.....

I spend a couple hours polishing out my finishes, so I'll be darned if someone is gonna come along a feel up my merchandise and leave great big globs of greasy grimy paw prints everywhere, or accidently cause parts to come loose or whatever.

They did that to a IPMS judge, put a car on a base, made it roll really well, and put it together with elmers glue.

[CAL]

So what you are saying is "Those who trust the judges have an advantage over those who don't trust anyone but themselves." Risk can have great reward.

Is it trust issues or separation anxiety that causes people to not wanna touch their stuff?

Those that prefer not to have judges touch their models - do you loan any tools when a neighbor or fellow modeler needs something?

Not so much. I have found by and large if it isn't their's they don't take care of it like I take care of my stuff and it is never returned in the same condition it was lent out in. So, unless it is something I can easily replace have a dup of or don't care about that much yeah go ahead and take it. Anything that would be expensive to replace, I couldn't live without or a precision machine or tool. Not on your life.

[CAL]

So what you are saying is "Those who trust the judges have an advantage over those who don't trust anyone but themselves." Risk can have great reward.

Is it trust issues or separation anxiety that causes people to not wanna touch their stuff?

Those that prefer not to have judges touch their models - do you loan any tools when a neighbor or fellow modeler needs something?

Not so much. I have found by and large if it isn't their's they don't take care of it like I take care of my stuff and it is never returned in the same condition it was lent out in. So, unless it is something I can easily replace have a dup of or don't care about that much yeah go ahead and take it. Anything that would be expensive to replace, I couldn't live without or a precision machine or tool. Not on your life.

I have no reason to trust anyone. Everyone I ever trusted eventually let me down in some way. Trust is something I don't have a lot of faith or take a lot of stock in.

Of course it depends on degree. You can use my bic lighter, but the drill press - no.

Edited January 16, 2010 by CAL

[jbwelda]

>Is it trust issues or separation anxiety that causes people to not wanna touch their stuff?

no, mostly its that you dont want the model broken by careless handling.

its not really freudian science you know. sometimes the most simple explanation really is the explanation.

[Modelmartin]

c'mon man, einstein didnt invent evolution for nothing.

Hey, Man! Einstein invented the Bagel!

Charles darwin is rolling in his grave!

[Modelmartin]

I hate it when I am judging and some poorly built model disintegrates when you touch it! I usually take it out of consideration because it is so poorly built.

Judges are 99.9% super conscientious about handling models and only do so when absolutely necessary. When I judge I only do it to see the undersides and carefully pick a spot to touch it. I don't grab onto mirrors, antennae, or foiled drip rails! If the model is on its table card I will turn it by pulling on the card. Judges typically make a very concerted effort to not touch the model unless it is necessary and will not result in any harm to the model.

Some builders will leave handling instructions for the judge. It is greatly appreciated.

As a builder I am very careful to attach things very strongly. I will drill holes in the door and the back side of a mirror base and glue in a brass or piano wire pin to hold it. I once used piano wire with a loop bent into it as an antennae on a 1/43rd white metal Porsche. I drilled a hole through the roof and pushed the antennae through from the bottom so the loop was glued to the underside of the roof. Someone wanted to pick it up but asked me to because he was afraid of knocking off the antennae. I grabbed it and picked it up by the antennae! He almost had a coronary.

Edited January 16, 2010 by Modelmartin

[Ramcharger]

There was an instance where a new road racer was learning to race his newly built Improved Touring B VW-GTI - he misjudged traction and his braking point and rear-ended a Honda Civic HARD! Ultimately - the responsibility was of the owners of their respective cars. Competition is dangerous and you can't have insurance coverage on the racetrack - if you can - how much would that cost?!

I think I misunderstood the original post. In racing competition of course the owner is responsible for damage, I was thinking you were talking about a static show. If the judges are sitting in and starting a car at a static show, I'm thinking the owner is not responsible for damage by someone else. It kind of goes back to the idea of touching another man's wife - you just don't!

When entering a show (1:1 or scale/ NNL or judged contest) a model owner takes risk. The Crowd can get unruly or the judge can get careless. A risk that is out of everyone's control, I would think. Why increase it by purposely handling someone's model?

Quitting because something gets broken or doesn't go in the builder's favor does not reflect maturity.

I don't think I would quit competing, but the likelihood of me or my friends returning to that particular show would be slim to none - and Slim just left town!

How much respect did we give the kid who got angry when he lost his baseball or soccer game?

That's a different topic all together. If you lose, you need to build better, not whine more. Will you get screwed at a show - yes, if you compete long enough. But that is the nature of the game.

Excellent, mature discussion, BTW. Much better than what we have had lately around here! You, also, make some very valid points.

[Jon Cole]

Something to consider through this thread that has not been touched on is the difference between a contest at a LHS, vs a contest hosted by a club. I would be leery of any contest at any LHS, and I have been to a few. Many of these shops are not run by people with a lot of knowledge of our hobby, and the risk is just not worth the reward; not to mention the usual mediocre number of entries. Winning a catagory by default is not worth winning.

Model builders and clubs are far better at putting on a good event. Builders are well aware of risk, and (in my experience) demonstrate far more caution handling a model than any typical hobby shop owner or manager would. Again, just my observation.

BTW, at our CPMCS event, the judges wear gloves, so no fingerprints. Honestly, my model is more at risk of damage if I carry it to the photographer, than it is by a judge picking it up.

Also, on a related note, a tip of the ol' hat to everyone on keeping the discussion here rightous.

[Chuck Most]

Wanna freak out the judges who like to pick stuff up?

Don't attach the chassis, or interiors to the bodies, and as soon as an over-eager judge goes in for a "hands on inspection" and feels the car's sub-assemblies begin to seperate, he'll be put that car right the heck back down!!......

Evil. I like it!

Edited January 16, 2010 by Chuck Most

[Karmodeler2]

Greetings fellow plastimaniacs!

At the end of the second DVD - Donn has some things to say about Show/Contest Judges touching and handling models. He REALLY doesn't like it! His solution is displaying models on mirrors or judging the model as it sits or the builder displaying/entering the model should be paged or located to "show" the hidden area.

Don is correct. You should never touch someone else's model. I don't want you, your family, anyone in your neighborhood, or on this planet touching my stuff. I would no more pick up your model than I would expect you to pick up mine. You judge the cars as they are on the table. If one has a detailed underside and is on a display, and one is not and both are very close in competition, then if the detailed underside one is done correct and clean, then it wins. If you want your model to be seen underneath, then elevate it

When an AACA member has his or her car judged - it is touched. When entering a concours - cars are touched, sat in, started, and the evaluation is VERY hands-on and stressful for the owner.

This is not an INTERACTIVE show. This is a STATIC model display contest. I glue my wheels on because I don't play with my models.

The thought I have is this - If you wanna compete and you wanna win - Having your finished model touched and quite possibly destroyed by accident is part of competition.

I'm not sure what you are smoking, but you must be out of your mind. My last model had over 1500 hours invested it in and you are telling me that part of competition is to have some lame brain destroy it?

What is nice - should a car get damaged - you get to use those parts in another kit or you get to rebuild the kit that has been damaged - changing or repairing things you wanted to but didn't get to in the first place.

Once again, I think you are on something

I'm really looking forward to hearing what others have to say about this subject. Please be kind - a different opinion isn't stupid - it's just different.

Nuf said

[Karmodeler2]

I don't know why anyone needs to touch a model to judge it. After all it's a STATIC display model not an INTERACTIVE display model. It sould be the responsiblity of the builder to display the model for the biggest bang of the buck. It is the responsiblity of the judge to judge what he or she sees and not have to going looking for the super detailed rear end cover bolts with washers.

I donno, I think ever contest I have ever been to that was the rule, including the one where I have one of my models dropped. NO TOUCHING but some people can't seem to resist picking them up anyway.

They should have all there fingers broken.

Cal,

I could not agree with you more. Well put!!!! Now let me know when we can get to "snappin' " cause there are a few fingers I would like to snap!!!

David

[Chas SCR]

I gone to a lot of shows and really know of 1 that gets right down and pick's a car apart and I love this part of the Judge's doing there job. I have no troulbe of them lifting up my car to see if there is clue or some wax left over on the bottom of the car, or if some thing is missing. The GSL Judges are one of the top of the line people who do nit pick and I have no troulbe in this.

Last year from 1st to 5th in Street Machine was award by only one part each from car to car. Each person ( and yes my self) missed a part. To figur how who place it came down to what part was going to hurt the car more if it was a real car and make it not able to drive. Just think 1 part did all of this and not one of the top 5 cars had the same part missing.

Also if I can fly out to SLC and the car makes it there in one piece and yes if it gets damage in travel the Judges take a sight on this and do not nock it down for this. Also there is a box to check if you do not want your car picked up.

[Guest Johnny]

I haven't entered a contest in a coon's age. But I used to enter in them frequently as a kid and a few as an adult!Never a National event just local hobby shop car show type contests!

I have a second place trophy. A tiny thing to some that I won at a local Hobby Shop when I was in 7Th or 8th Grade!

I have no problem with a judge carefully picking mine up to look at the bottom side!

Only ever remember them doing that at two contests. One man used a handkerchief and the other had on white cotton gloves!

I have had on model stolen, and three damaged at contests one unrepairable when a lady had a diabetic seizure and fell on a table collapsing it! I was more concerned for the woman than any of my models!

Sure it is a bad feeling but no reason to stop attending!

I quit as my building waned and work and everyday life got in the way!

I may enter in some local contests this next year and see what happens! I don't expect to win just like I never did at real car shows. I'm there to see what others have done, get new ideas and to have fun meeting others that share the hobby!

Let's not take things so serious guys! it just takes all the fun out of it!

[Modelmartin]

Let's not take things so serious guys! it just takes all the fun out of it!

It seems that the ones who are getting too serious are the ones who don't enter contests!

I take my building seriously and can compete nationally. I love it and have lots of fun doing it. I don't take myself too seriously. I think it is the LHS and club contests where most of the drama takes place.