People recasting stuff that you mastered without your permission

[Ace-Garageguy]

I have designed and built 1:1 aftermarket fiberglass custom parts (the masters, tooling and the parts themselves) for many years. My parts were loosely BASED on production parts and attached like production parts, so there was no copyright infringement issue. Either I (or the client I was working for) owned the copyrights. In MANY cases, my original parts were soon copied by thieving slop-jockies who were incapable of producing an original anything, but drove me out of the market because I couldn't compete cost-wise with pirated, warped junk (made from bottom-of-the-barrel resin in sloppy splash-molds taken from my parts) that didn't fit.

I've tried molding in a logo or an intentional mark of some kind, but that's easily filled with bondo before a pirated mold is made, and doesn't show up in a part afterwards. The only remedy I ever found remotely helpful was to laminate a business card under the last layer of glass on the inside...it would show enough to be readable, and wasn't easily duplicated by counterfeiters. We've sent out lots of 'cease-and-desist' letters, and even received some nanny-nanny-boo-boo, what-are-you-going-to-do-about-it responses. I finally got sick and tired of the whole game, and quit.

The only stuff I'll make these days is generally either too complicated or has too limited a market for anyone to bother copying.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[spkgibson]

sorry....I'm a complete moron by getting upset over some counterfeit part of my work....I seen it on there....And so did the person I sent the parts to...But I'm wrong.....But what do I know....I spent the time making the thing......FORGET IT.

[1320wayne]

The bottom line here is in the hopes that we as model builders/hobbyists follow some sort of gentlemans rule in regards to not treading on exploiting someone elses hard work by making financial gains at selling others hard work without permission.

There really is no feasible way to trademark any "masters" work done when it comes to resin casting. I have been doing masters for other resin casters for many years, from simple parts to full bodies. I put a lot of hard work into everything that I do and even though it becomes very frustrating when someone else decides to take your work and claim it as their own there is no recourse against that person other than possibly making their ethics (or lack thereof) known to others such as on a public forum like this. From there it shouldn't take long for said person to develop a negative reputation and their future business dealings start to dwindle. However, when it comes to people selling on places like Ebay it becomes harder to discredit the seller as their business potential has a much larger customer base.

All I can add is that even though I have had it happen to me a few times you will eventually get past the the frustration and most likely the person that "stole your work" will fade away a short time later.

[Dave Van]

Welcome to the club. My stuff is copies all the time....and sold for more than mine and the quality is what I call 'junk'.

But recourse....not much at this level........

[Greg Myers]

So someone makes a copy of your copy and you're crying about it ? No license/copy right no recourse.

[Ace-Garageguy]

sorry....I'm a complete moron by getting upset over some counterfeit part of my work....I seen it on there....And so did the person I sent the parts to...But I'm wrong.....But what do I know....I spent the time making the thing......FORGET IT.

I understand entirely why you're upset, but there's probably nothing you can do about it. Ebay DOES have a "report this item" button, so if you're sure someone is ripping you off, you could try that.

[MAGNUM4342]

So someone makes a copy of your copy and you're crying about it ? No license/copy right no recourse.

Nooooooo, he's upset that someone has ripped off his original sculpt.

[mikemodeler]

sorry....I'm a complete moron by getting upset over some counterfeit part of my work....I seen it on there....And so did the person I sent the parts to...But I'm wrong.....But what do I know....I spent the time making the thing......FORGET IT.

Steve,

Understand the frustration but keep in mind that even with a patent on a product, someone could change your design ever so slightly and get away with it. My wife and I developed a couple of consumer household items and spent some $$$ on getting patents only to be told later that our protection was limited if someone wanted to imitate our product.

For what it is worth, consider it flattery that someone copied your hard work. Doesn't make it easier to accept, but you have made us aware that there are poor copies out there and we shouldn't confuse them with yours.

[spkgibson]

Nooooooo, he's upset that someone has ripped off his original sculpt.

And I pulled the plug on it...So anyone who wants a '72 Demon grill .....Ask Kevin at Missing Link....If they still make them.....I have a 73 Dart Sport grill in the works....And also a 73 Plymouth Scamp....So if you want to see them cast....Be nice......I am sure a few would be willing to cast them for me.....

[MAGNUM4342]

And I pulled the plug on it...So anyone who wants a '72 Demon grill .....Ask Kevin at Missing Link....If they still make them.....I have a 73 Dart Sport grill in the works....And also a 73 Plymouth Scamp....So if you want to see them cast....Be nice......I am sure a few would be willing to cast them for me.....

"Ahem...cough,cough."

[sjordan2]

All copyright issues aside for this discussion (but they still pertain), who paid you for the part you made? Missing Link?

If so, did they give you a purchase order? Did the purchase order state that you were doing Work Made for Hire?

My point is, if any or all of that is true, Missing Link would own the rights to the part you made, and the ball's in their court. However, just like any other creative work, you would have the right, ahead of doing the work, to tell them you wanted to retain ownership and cross out the "Work Made for Hire" clause with their agreement and initials. But that requires negotiating up front.

Don't start commissioned work without a P.O. that outlines the terms of the agreement. It's a binding contract. You can get standard forms.

Edited March 25, 2013 by sjordan2

[Steven Zimmerman]

I have mastered somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 model car and truck bodies that have been cast and offered for sale to the public, and probably another hundred seats, interiors, frames, dashes, hoods....etc. In most cases the master was placed in the hands of a caster, and I was compensated, either in resin copies, or cash. Once those masters were out of my hands, they were no longer my property....Someone else casts a copy, it's really not something I worry about. Now, I'm casting and marketing my own series of wheels - someone buys a set and casts them, I really have no recourse...Do I like it?....no. Am I going to lose sleep over it ? Hardly, that's just life. As an aside, I have personally heard some of the biggest names in the casting business scream bloody murder at someone possibly casting versions of their product, while quietly casting someone elses 'stuff' themselves.....I sorry it happens, get over it, go on with your life....Steve Zimmerman

[English Jules]

I know military modellers who take casts of kit items, for using at stowage on a truck or tank, or just to improve the kit items and for their own work. I recently have been looking on US ebay at police car after market parts, and i can see some really poor cast items, that look like copies of someone elses poor copies of genuine items.

I have a resin sidwalk water hydrant, that i got a good few years ago from the US, genuine product, but it doesnt sit flat and its pretty basic compared to the real thing i have seen in fotos. Now if i was to update it, change it to make it more realistic in shape etc, then from what people say, i can make copies and sell it no problem.

[spkgibson]

I have mastered somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 model car and truck bodies that have been cast and offered for sale to the public, and probably another hundred seats, interiors, frames, dashes, hoods....etc. In most cases the master was placed in the hands of a caster, and I was compensated, either in resin copies, or cash. Once those masters were out of my hands, they were no longer my property....Someone else casts a copy, it's really not something I worry about. Now, I'm casting and marketing my own series of wheels - someone buys a set and casts them, I really have no recourse...Do I like it?....no. Am I going to lose sleep over it ? Hardly, that's just life. As an aside, I have personally heard some of the biggest names in the casting business scream bloody murder at someone possibly casting versions of their product, while quietly casting someone elses 'stuff' themselves.....I sorry it happens, get over it, go on with your life....Steve Zimmerman

Steve,

I have contacted Kevin about it...Same answer....The real concern I had was if the part was molded poorly....I wanted no reflection on my craftsmanship.....As I taking extreme pride in my work.

Edited April 4, 2013 by spkgibson

[Elliot949]

I knew you didn't, But my point was that because AFX had a kit out before yours and you made a better one. Do they have a right to be upset with you? Legally the whole resin section of our hobbie is a copyrite nightmare. I would be shocked if anything was actually pattented or copyrited.

So Shawn Carpenter has been told to stop making stuff, Has anyone else? Has Modelhaus had any trouble selling copies of promo and kit parts? I would guess 90% of their stuff is direct unmodified parts.

Don pays for licensing... That is one reason his kits are in the price range they are in not to mention the quality...

[george 53]

IF you ever get them.

[Ju Ju]

IF you ever get them.

please tell who you are talking about, I have never heard any thing bad about modelhaus or people not getting their orders from them.

[gtx6970]

I can only speak for the Mopar licensing side .

But I was told a few years back from Trademarketing Assoc (mopars trademark watchdogs btw)

To obtain approval of an intended licensed subject depends on the intended subject. But somewhere in the $1800- $ 2500 range to get you started and appox 3% of the retail sales amount PER item to be licensed. IF Approved.

BUT, I also have been told they will sign off on it at no costs ,,,,,,, ' IF ' the projected sales numbers will be considerably low ( under 50-100 pieces per year and/or if the retail is going to be extremly low , under $10 retail per item as an example )

This is probably how the model cottage industry gets away with no licensing fees. In some cases it's simply not worth the man power to go after little fish.

PS, Also, trust me, people are paid to do nothing but monitor boards like this,,, ebay,,,, internet chat rooms etc etc etc to watch for trademark infringements on a daily basis .

I have been contacted on a couple occasions to ck the origin of my product line for 1/1 parts.

Edited March 27, 2013 by gtx6970

[Rob Hall]

please tell who you are talking about, I have never heard any thing bad about modelhaus or people not getting their orders from them.

I've never had a problem w/ the Modelhaus. One of the best in the business, IMO.

[george 53]

If you HAVEN'T read about OR burned by so called "Reliable Resin's" yet, you WILL be. look at the threads about him!

Edited March 27, 2013 by george 53

[Rob Hall]

If you HAVEN'T read about OR burned by so called "Reliable Resin's" yet, you WILL be. look at the threads about him!

What does RR have to do with the Modelhaus? Post #41 refers to Don Holthaus..

Edited March 27, 2013 by Rob Hall

[MAGNUM4342]

I can only speak for the Mopar licensing side .

But I was told a few years back from Trademarketing Assoc (mopars trademark watchdogs btw)

To obtain approval of an intended licensed subject depends on the intended subject. But somewhere in the $1800- $ 2500 range to get you started and appox 3% of the retail sales amount PER item to be licensed. IF Approved.

BUT, I also have been told they will sign off on it at no costs ,,,,,,, ' IF ' the projected sales numbers will be considerably low ( under 50-100 pieces per year and/or if the retail is going to be extremly low , under $10 retail per item as an example )

This is probably how the model cottage industry gets away with no licensing fees. In some cases it's simply not worth the man power to go after little fish.

PS, Also, trust me, people are paid to do nothing but monitor boards like this,,, ebay,,,, internet chat rooms etc etc etc to watch for trademark infringements on a daily basis .

I have been contacted on a couple occasions to ck the origin of my product line for 1/1 parts.

And after several posts in the Mopar or Nocar thread...you never thought to mention this to me? Thanks alot.

[gtx6970]

And after several posts in the Mopar or Nocar thread...you never thought to mention this to me? Thanks alot.

This is not meant as a bash so please don't take it as such.

If you didn't think about the pitfalls of producing a licensed product when you got started you have not done your homework. and It's not my job to do your homework.

That said , Licensing issues come into play when your making parts / items with licensed trademarks on them and reselling for profit. Hubcaps with the word Dodge on them as an example. 'Dodge' is a licensed trademark, the hubcap isn't.

Reproducing parts from a long ago avail model kit , I doubt they'll even worry about . Using your 1970 Charger grille 'as an example' .

I don't dare say I know all the in's and outs of licensing and it's nuances,,,,, becasue I don't. Only what I know by talking to the people at Trademarking Resource Associates in Detroit . Even then it's only been when they've contacted me.

Like I said, I highly doubt they would even worry about you as a whole, but IMO call them and let them know your intentions.

BUT ( and theres always a but ) , should you decide to produce say an entire kit ( 1977 Charger as an example. ) My gut says they will want there share, but I could be very wrong on either account.

My previous shifter ball idea required no licensing , it bore no licensed trademarks on it in any way shape or form.

I know someone who made shirts with the Roadrunner and Willie Coyote figures on them. He received a letter telling him to stop and destroy all merchandise or pay licensing fees on such. But that was from Warner Bros , not Mopar......... true story.

Edited March 27, 2013 by gtx6970

[MAGNUM4342]

Oh yea, Bench seat for the 1971 Duster and I'm in.

This is meant as a bash so please don't take it as such.

If you didn't think about the pitfalls of producing a licensed product when you got started you have not done your homework. and It's not my job to do your homework.

First line: I'm sure you meant "This is NOT meant as a bash..."?

Second line: No, it is not your job to do MY homework, but if it's the case where you stated they have come to you before, I would have thought in all that discussion you would have, as a courtesy, mentioned this to me. Especially after bringing up things like "Oh yea, Bench seat for the 1971 Duster and I'm in." You were one of the more vocal members in that thread and it just stands to reason you could have mentioned all the above before now. I have done homework but no amount of homework could have prepared me for "PS, Also, trust me, people are paid to do nothing but monitor boards like this,,, ebay,,,, internet chat rooms etc etc etc to watch for trademark infringements on a daily basis".

That's all i'm saying. Help a guy out, give a brother a break.

[gtx6970]

That's all i'm saying. Help a guy out, give a brother a break.

Point taken, didn't really think about it to be honest. And to be honest I highly doubt you'll have any issues ,,,see the ' little fish comment '