I think I'm a dying breed

[azers]

Don't get me started on parts counter clerks who need to ask what size motor you have for a wheel cylinder or something completely unrelated.

[azers]

I have worked in the parts business for dealers and aftermarket for over 20 years. And I still shake my head at some of the questions I get ask like why does the rear brakes matter what the front are. I just shake my head and tell them ask the manufacturer of the car. The most fun I have is when someone buys a car that still runs points and when the car runs bad and you ask them have you checked the points and you get the blank stare and the what are points. The real fun starts when you bring out the points and they ask what are those.

[Skydime]

Just try finding a machine shop that can rebuild a set of heads for a small block Chevy. Go ahead, I dare ya...

Give McCoy Motorsports, in Pikeville, KY a call. There is a shop that they use that is very good but, I don't recall their name. I do know that they built the heads on the GMC Syclone owned by Jerry McCoy that used to hold the title of "world's fastest 4.3 Syclone." They also do small block Chevy's and other things.

[slantasaurus]

Those of us who were fortunate enough to have had REAL autoshops in High School with GREAT teachers who cared about us, were at the advantage. IF you had a Dad who was ALSO into cars, you were REALLY set! I did my first valve job on a 52 Chevy six. at 11. Dad watched me and approved of every step. When i got into high school, i rebuilt both a Studebaker Turbo 327 and a Porche 917 rear suspension in the 12th grade. Today, Nope, the hardest things I do are just bolt on stuff, reprogrammers, headers,cold air kit, coil, plugs ,wires,etc.. I DO NOT mess with the computer or electricals, other than the simple stuff, installing a coil, like on my 95 Impala SS, or spliceing in the Jet Power reprogramer. NONE of the newer stuff apeals to me. I can STILL rebuild a Holley, or Carter, OR Rochester, and I'll do a ford alumipot carb if I can't replace it. Can still rebuild and set up a distributor too. Yeah, I'm old.

OK George I have to call BS. Did you really rebuild the rear suspension on a "Porche" 917 ??? First you should know it is spelled Porsche, second the 917 was a 12 cylinder full race car that was run in Can Am and Le Mans, not a street driven Porsche. I highly doubt that the Porsche factory engineers would have let a high school kid from Detroit work on one of their, at the time state of the art race cars. Don't worry, I do believe the old part.

[mnwildpunk]

slanty I can't be 100% because I don't know the him personally but I do know of george pretty well through the forum and I take his word for for it. There where a few privately owned cars and who know that may have been what he worked on. I personally have no real info on it but who knows and that is all I have to say about that

Edited October 19, 2013 by mnwildpunk

[bbowser]

Ace-Garageguy, on 18 Oct 2013 - 6:38 PM, said:

...and we're already encountering the "not economically feasible to repair" syndrome when all of the fancy computer management ###### gets old and quits. There are already MANY electronic components no longer serviced by the vehicle manufacturers, and the aftermarket doesn't have them either. Cars like the old Ford that responded happily to a competent tech with a simple carb-rebuild kit have been replaced by a fleet of vehicles THAT WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP OPERATING without significant re-engineering.

That's the point, throw it away and buy a NEW one! Like almost everything else now, nothing is made to last longer than the warrantee to guarantee future sales

[von Zipper]

Those of us who were fortunate enough to have had REAL autoshops in High School with GREAT teachers who cared about us, were at the advantage. IF you had a Dad who was ALSO into cars, you were REALLY set! Yeah, I'm old.

I have to agree with George on these points.

But I also credit my Mom too, she's always been a 'car girl' herself. She only bought me educational toys instead of toy guns and such.

I'm stuck somewhere in the middle, I'm 50 yrs. old so I'm caught between the time periods.

I too went to Detroit public High School that had a great auto shop teacher, maybe the best over all teacher I've ever had in a school environment.

My Dad was a left over typical '50s greaser, over my life time he had dozens of cool cars, trucks and tractors- Think of James Browns song : Pappa don't take no Mess

[weasel]

when did it become cheaper to just 'replace it' as opposed to 'rebuild it'?? being an old Parts guy, I remember pulling parts to rebuild most anything[well, GM anyway]... diode trio and a regulator for your alternator.. .brushes for the starter, wiper motor parts, carb's, transmissions, etc, etc....

I've always said that if you can SEE the plugs/plug wires, you should be able to change them!! lol

IMHO, 1980 was the worst year for autos[again, GM anyway]... the ECM!!! it all started from this...who would have thought that to do a proper tune-up on a car nowadays, you need a $5000 multi function tool!!!

and another thing...what's gonna happen to all this 'trickery' down the road?? back in the day, a window crank was around $3.00... a power window motor was about $180, now power windows are nice, but, when they quit working... cars now have up to 10 different computers in/on them to control EVERYTHING...

dunno, gimme a mid/late 70's car that I can work on and i'll guarantee it'll run as clean as a NEW car does...

[Erik Smith]

dunno, gimme a mid/late 70's car that I can work on and i'll guarantee it'll run as clean as a NEW car does...

I am no expert on car emissions, but I don't think any 1975 car can run cleaner than a 2013 car. You might be able to tune it to periodically run clean, but wouldn't it take continuous adjustments to keep running clean all the time? I grew up in the 70s and I can remember well the smell of car exhaust - sitting in traffic or on cold winter mornings waiting for the windows to defrost. Kids today have no idea what that old exhaust even smells like.

I am no advocate of "throw away" technology, and I think the ability to work on your car is a noble endeavor, but I also am pretty realistic when I say today's cars are a lot more reliable, safer, and cleaner than cars 40 years ago.

[Ace-Garageguy]

I am no expert on car emissions, but I don't think any 1975 car can run cleaner than a 2013 car. You might be able to tune it to periodically run clean, but wouldn't it take continuous adjustments to keep running clean all the time? I grew up in the 70s and I can remember well the smell of car exhaust - sitting in traffic or on cold winter mornings waiting for the windows to defrost. Kids today have no idea what that old exhaust even smells like.

I am no advocate of "throw away" technology, and I think the ability to work on your car is a noble endeavor, but I also am pretty realistic when I say today's cars are a lot more reliable, safer, and cleaner than cars 40 years ago.

There's no question that cars today outperform their predecessors in those areas, but at what cost for this perceived improvement? Airbags and crush zones compensate for sleepy idiots texting and crashing mindlessly into one another, but my '73 seat belt-equipped vehicle never killed me when some fool tried to occupy the same space. And my '73 vehicle was as reliable as a stone axe...and when it was 10 years old was still easily and cheaply repairable without resorting to myriad computer diagnostic tools and techs who didn't know how an engine actually runs. As far as cleaner goes, yes, LA's air is better now than then...but I make my earlier point...my good friends 2001 vehicle HAS TAILPIPE EMISSIONS THAT ARE IN SPEC, but the onboard computer is fritzing. Therefore, local law WILL NOT ALLOW IT TO BE REGISTERED EVEN THOUGH IT'S CLEAN, and it will take close to $1000 to fix it. Where's the logic?

Edited October 20, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[charlie8575]

I'm experiencing all these problems right now with my newer computer-controlled car.

Now, granted, it's nineteen years old and parts DO wear out after awhile, even solid-state electronics, but when something that's creating a real problem keeps recurring after replacing something like half a dozen different sensors (and it's all the sensors that would cause the issue), plus a couple of odd parts you wouldn't think of that might still cause the problem, it becomes insanity.

George, I have to give you credit for doing the coil on that LT-1. My own car is a Roadmaster, and one of the parts I ended up replacing was the coil, as my mechanic said "it's a long shot, but it's worth a try." Getting that SOB out of those riveted brackets was a nightmare. All the grinding and drilling in the world couldn't get them to work loose.

So far, I've replaced five or six sensors, the coil, and the battery (which was dying and my dad suspected it was screwing up the electrical system), and the thing is still stalling, balking, surging/retarding, losing power under load and running rough. All the vacuum lines are tight, the hoses are tight. Stalls when it warms up and becomes all but impossible to restart until it's dead cold about 3/4 of the time.

Seriously, if anyone has ANY ideas, I'm willing to give it a shot. I will say, though, that with the new coil and battery (installed today), it is starting to behave much better, but it still died on my way home, stalled out one more time, and tried to stall while I was en route to my destination earlier.

Back to the main topic, the disposable generation we seem to be in has little or no respect for anything that takes time, knowledge or skill if it isn't a video game or some other electronic thing. While teaching and subbing, I explained the whole process of building a model to a lot of kids- some seemed interested, others screamed at the "agony" of effort. Like Dave, Bill and a few of the other posters, I've explained fixing cars with simple hand-tools and, if you were lucky, a dwell meter. "Why don't you replace the sensors?" "What sensors?"

However, a small amount of gratification came when the subject of antique cars came up, and I was able to show a bunch of seventh graders through the wonder of the Internet pictures under the hood of wonderful machines like capital-C Classic Packards, V-16 Cadillacs, and even more everyday cars like a Flathead Ford or Stovebolt Chevy.

These kids were in awe...at the simplicity. Why, yes, you can do most of the work yourself. Sure, if you can use a wrench, socket and a screwdriver, you can do about 90% of the repairs on your own. Can you use a multi-testor and dwell meter? You can do 95% of it. Replace parts? No- reBUILD parts, here's how- distributor, generator/alternator (we got a couple of GTOs in, too), starter, carb, and so forth.

I think I might have even inspired a future restorer or two. They can be reached, you just need to know how.

Most importantly- kids- I mean junior/senior high school kids, are WILLING to learn if it's of interest. Start them early and they'll stand a better chance of growing into self-sufficient adults. Even if their new car needs to have throw-away parts replaced, they might still be able to do it themselves or at least talk intelligently to their mechanics.

Charlie Larkin

[Ace-Garageguy]

Most importantly- kids- I mean junior/senior high school kids, are WILLING to learn if it's of interest. Start them early and they'll stand a better chance of growing into self-sufficient adults. Even if their new car needs to have throw-away parts replaced, they might still be able to do it themselves or at least talk intelligently to their mechanics.

Charlie Larkin

The world really needs more teachers like you...quick.

[Erik Smith]

There's no question that cars today outperform their predecessors in those areas, but at what cost for this perceived improvement? Airbags and crush zones compensate for sleepy idiots texting and crashing mindlessly into one another, but my '73 seat belt-equipped vehicle never killed me when some fool tried to occupy the same space. And my '73 vehicle was as reliable as a stone axe...and when it was 10 years old was still easily and cheaply repairable without resorting to myriad computer diagnostic tools and techs who didn't know how an engine actually runs. As far as cleaner goes, yes, LA's air is better now than then...but I make my earlier point...my good friends 2001 vehicle HAS TAILPIPE EMISSIONS THAT ARE IN SPEC, but the onboard computer is fritzing. Therefore, local law WILL NOT ALLOW IT TO BE REGISTERED EVEN THOUGH IT'S CLEAN, and it will take close to $1000 to fix it. Where's the logic?

I hear you, Bill.

Unfortunately, there are more people - a lot more - millions more - that are:

1. Unsafe, distracted drivers

2. Don't care how a car performs

3. Don't want a smelly old car

That's where the market and society has created the situation (good or bad) we are in now.

I myself would love to work on cars more. Last time I did anything was on my 1984 Toyota - I replaced the timing chain in my carport with a small box of tools and a Haynes manual. Somehow, without knowing what was going on, I managed to tear the whole engine down and put it back together and, the magical part, it started. Ran for years with no problems. I didn't have to worry about emissions then, though.

I have friends that were big into cars in high school and most of them have given up on cars - atleast the working on them part.

[Ace-Garageguy]

I hear you, Bill.

Unfortunately, there are more people - a lot more - millions more - that are:

1. Unsafe, distracted drivers

2. Don't care how a car performs

3. Don't want a smelly old car

That's where the market and society has created the situation (good or bad) we are in now.

I myself would love to work on cars more. Last time I did anything was on my 1984 Toyota - I replaced the timing chain in my carport with a small box of tools and a Haynes manual. Somehow, without knowing what was going on, I managed to tear the whole engine down and put it back together and, the magical part, it started. Ran for years with no problems. I didn't have to worry about emissions then, though.

I have friends that were big into cars in high school and most of them have given up on cars - atleast the working on them part.

And I hear you too. I specialize in mostly pre-emmission vehicles myself, and a lot of my preference for "smelly old cars" has to do with wanting to avoid the frustration I run into keeping my other computers running happily...where there can be hidden glitches within glitches within glitches.

The great majority of the car-buying public view cars as disposable transportation appliances, and that's what most of them in fact are. At the same time, I have to really admire what computer aided design and engineering have done for combustion-chamber design, cam profiles and engine management in general. And I agree that NEW cars are usually virtually perfectly reliable and clean running. It's just when they get older that they become serious problems to maintain, and it's a very serious shortcoming.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[charlie8575]

The world really needs more teachers like you...quick.

Thank you, Bill.

Unfortunately, the present state of American education disagrees with us completely, and that's why, with the exception of some substitute-work I still do, I left K-12 education. Seems they don't like common sense and self-sufficiency being taught anymore, along with other things like respect, courtesy, honor, honesty and the other stuff that makes Man complete.

I now do a little business consulting, some contract work, and I'm working on opening a firm to manufacture modeling products. Releases should be coming early next year if all goes to plan.

Charlie Larkin

Edited October 20, 2013 by charlie8575

[69NovaYenko]

I needed a new battery last fall so I dropped by the NTB to picked one out and opted to let them do the swap out. Well after a short wait I finally was them bring my car into the bay. With my complimentary cup of dish water tasting, luke warm coffee in hand I eased out the waiting room and wondered over to the service bay where my car was parked. I discovered a young twenty one year old service tech under the hood with a ratchet attempting to remove the bolts from battery hold bracket. I engaged him in some general conversation as he worked on my car. He quickly made it a point to tell me how “GOOD” a mechanic he was; in fact he was the best darn mechanic in the entire shop. Additionally, he informed me that the “old timers” around the shop with15 to 20 plus years of hands-on experience were jealous of his awesome skills and could not match his knowledge..after all he just got out of tech school eighteen months ago and has been trained in the latest and greatest whiz bang technology. NTB was just a stepping stone, he had plans on becoming a lead shop manager for one of the big car dealerships or better yet opening his own shop.

The whole time he is patting himself on the back I`m watching him struggle with removing the bolts from the battery hold down tray. He had both hands on the ratchet handle, you could see the muscles in his arms trembling, the veins in his neck and temple standing up; he was up on the balls of his feet and the bolts would not yield to his brute force attack. By now one of the old timers wandered by and in an attempt to be helpful to his young colleague suggested that he hit the bolts with some rust release penetrate spray. The seasoned veteran even tossed him a can of spray out of his own toolbox.

Now, the young lad was insulted. He didn’t need any advise from this old fart. After all he just got out of tech school eighteen months ago and has been trained in the latest and greatest whiz bang technology. No one in the shop knew more than he did. So, he grabs a twelve inch piece of half inch pipe from the bottom tray of his toolbox and inserts it over the ratchet handle. “What I need is move leverage”, he says to me. It was at that point a chill ran up my spine as he put every ounce of strength he could summon from the mechanic gods and pulled and yanked on the ratchet. Before I could yell “ STOP” there was a loud bang and his entire body literally fell face forward into my cars engine compartment. YES…he sheered the bolt head off!!!!! The service manager pulled him off my car and got the old timer, the one that had tried to assist him in the start, to finish the job. The old timer removed the remaining undamaged bolt after a few squirts of penetrate spray. He then had to heat the remains of the sheered off bolt and work in back and forth with a pair of vice grips until he was able to extract the last remains of the bolt with a easy-all. He then scavenge the shop for a similar sized bolt and re-thread the damaged bolt hole…it took an hour and twenty minute get everything back to normal.

I assure you we still need you old school guys because you have far more knowledge and common sense than a lot of the "just out of tech school eighteen months ago and highly trained in the latest and greatest whiz bang technology" techs..trust me and this is a TRUE story!!!

Edited October 21, 2013 by 69NovaYenko

[charlie8575]

Thank you, Greg, for a badly-needed laugh. I hope your car suffered no permanent damage from the clown.

Charlie Larkin

[mnwildpunk]

Something very similar happened in the shop I work at a young guy had a very stuck bolt and using a breaker bar and a pipe extention with all his strengh he reefed on it having it slip and he bashed his head open and kbocked himself out. My buddy took some p.b. And a lil heat he removed the bolt with a normal sized 1/2" rachet the young guy was quite humiliated and quit soon after

[slusher]

Something very similar happened in the shop I work at a young guy had a very stuck bolt and using a breaker bar and a pipe extention with all his strengh he reefed on it having it slip and he bashed his head open and kbocked himself out. My buddy took some p.b. And a lil heat he removed the bolt with a normal sized 1/2" rachet the young guy was quite humiliated and quit soon after

Nothing beats experience....

[Terry Sumner]

Just try finding a machine shop that can rebuild a set of heads for a small block Chevy. Go ahead, I dare ya...

Believe it or not Bud...I have THREE all within 15 miles of my house that are complete automotive engine machine shops! Arico's Machine in Jewett City, B&M Machine in Brooklyn and L&L Machine in Lisbon!

[weasel]

I am no expert on car emissions, but I don't think any 1975 car can run cleaner than a 2013 car. You might be able to tune it to periodically run clean, but wouldn't it take continuous adjustments to keep running clean all the time? I grew up in the 70s and I can remember well the smell of car exhaust - sitting in traffic or on cold winter mornings waiting for the windows to defrost. Kids today have no idea what that old exhaust even smells like.

I am no advocate of "throw away" technology, and I think the ability to work on your car is a noble endeavor, but I also am pretty realistic when I say today's cars are a lot more reliable, safer, and cleaner than cars 40 years ago.

well, would pass emissions test kinda thing...when they stil tested..lol

[charlie8575]

Just try finding a machine shop that can rebuild a set of heads for a small block Chevy. Go ahead, I dare ya...

J&M Machine, Southborough, Ma., Neil. The Gulbankians can rebuild/repair/replace almost anything.

Charlie Larkin

[Maindrian Pace]

A friend of mine referred a friend of his to me several weeks ago. This guy had a '66 Mustang convertible with a 289/auto that had a terrible rough idle in gear at a stop. Idled OK in park, drove down the road decently enough, but maybe 30 of the 195 horses had escaped the corral. He had already been to another local shop that rebuilt the carb, installed new plugs and wires, tried all different timing settings, idle speeds, mixtures, 2 sets of jets, etc. They then told him that the miss was a burned valve or bad guides, and a valve job would have to be done at a minimum. Estimate: $1,500. He didn't trust them.

The first thing I did was a compression check, 145-152 lbs in all eight, vacuum gauge steady at 12 inches at idle. A bit low - check timing, way advanced, crank it back down to 8 degrees from 15 or some such, vacuum up to 16 inches. Adjust air/fuel, now up to 18 inches, this engine is in good shape... but still has the fast miss at idle in gear. A fast miss is almost always ignition, so I figure the dwell is a mile off, like everything else was. So I pop the cap, and there it is: a Pertronix Ignitor II. Now I've had plenty of experience with these things, I even run a Pertronix I on my Comet - and I know that they either work flawlessly, or they run bad or worse. It didn't help that the installer of this unit several years back hooked it up to the resisted wire that feeds the coil, (8V) when the instructions call for a clean 12V connection, so I changed that, re-gapped the unit because it was too far closed, and... no difference at all.

So I pulled it all out, changed back to points and condenser, fired right up and settled to a smooth idle. Corrected timing again, closed plugs from .045 to .035, runs perfect and the missing horses are back in the corral. Owner elected to stay with points rather than buy a new Pertronix, and was very happy that it wasn't an internal engine problem. Bad diagnostics can cost customers a lot of money.

-MJS

[Danno]

True, Mike. And it's even funnier (ironic) that bad diagnostics almost always involve the most expensive repair possible. Funny they never seem to mis-diagnose cheaper!

[Ace-Garageguy]

I'm always amazed that the 'tards will still diagnose a burned valve without even doing a compression test. Just goes to show how few folks REALLY know how an IC engine operates. I wonder what the shop's excuse would have been if the Mustang with the bad Pertronix unit had HAD the recommended valve job and had still run like dog exhaust.

I'm also am frequently entertained by how many aftermarket parts are installed with total disregard for the instructions, and then the installer blames the unit. I guess reading the instructions (and understanding them) isn't deemed to be a necessity.

My hat's off to Maindrian Pace (Mike). All the right moves, in the right order.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy