47 replies to this topic

[E St. Kruiser50]

I think the comments and suggestions posted here have created more questions than they've answered. We have directly contradictory suggestions here. For example:

"Also I've found that the gloss black needs to be completely dry to minimize rubbing off when handling."

"Over drying the base doesn't allow the Alclad to "GET A BITE" into the base color, hence allowing it to rub off easily."

And this:

"For Alclad Chrome, the base coat should either be enamel or their own base coat. It will not stick to lacquer."

"I have sprayed Alclad over enamels, lacquers and urethane's with equally good results."


Since Alclad is lacquer (says so on the label), why would you want to use an enamel base coat? Anybody have any definitive answers here???

Hi Harry
I dion't know if this is a definitive answer, but as I've said before ALSA CORP. has the same exact product called MIRRA CHROME, even though Alclad denies it, and they list there base as alcohol/acetone.
All you have to do is "pop" the top and smell it to tell what it is. DEFINATELY NOT LACQUER !!!

Also the MIRRA CHROME uses urethanes instead of lacquers, and it work fine. I have cross sprayed the products with each other and all is the same and works great.

I'm no expert by any means, but I know what's worked for me equally sucessful.
I've given seminars in all three western states, including at the NNL WEST for Steve Hinson in 2007, and I heard about good results later.

To me, no one needs to be THE EXPERT, we just share different idea's and let you guy's decide what works .
The bottom line to me is, there are several ways to get from point A to point B, so try a few different idea's from what you read here, and see what works for you.

MY 2 cent's

Edited by Treehugger Dave, 16 April 2009 - 07:50 AM.

[Harry P.]

Thanks, Bob!

I didn't want to stir the pot, but when you get absolutely contradictory answers to the same question, it sort of triggers the old "red flag". Kind of like, "what's the weather like today?" and you get one guy telling you it's sunny and another guy telling you it's overcast and raining! Huh???!!!

[E St. Kruiser50]

Thanks, Bob!

I didn't want to stir the pot, but when you get absolutely contradictory answers to the same question, it sort of triggers the old "red flag". Kind of like, "what's the weather like today?" and you get one guy telling you it's sunny and another guy telling you it's overcast and raining! Huh???!!!

Hey Harry
STIRING THE POT can be lotsa fun at times .

I think building is about 95% "Perception".
What seems to "Work" for one person doesn't always work for another.
I don't think there is any one "Expert" at Alclading, painting or any other discipline here. We all share different idea's about what works for us, and I don't think there is any one "DIFINITIVE ANSWER" to your question, which I think is kinda cool.

I have several ways of doing almost anything I do, and there are times one is better than another.

I hope this confuses you more -

Edited by Treehugger Dave, 16 April 2009 - 08:14 AM.

[Harry P.]

Yeah, there are many different ways to get from "Point A to Point B' if the question is, for example, what type of paints are ""best"? or how do you chop a top?, etc. There's no one single answer to questions like that. But when the question is how to use one specific product, and you get diametrically opposed answers, that doesn't simplify things, it makes things even more confusing.

From everything I've ever seen, getting good results from Alclad is NOT easy... apparently there's not much margin for error. That implies that a very specific method of application is necessary in order to get good results. So when the answers as to how to use Alclad are coming from all over the the place and contradicting each other, I had to wonder what the real story is?

Let the base coat dry thoroughly or else the Alclad will rub off. Don't let the base coat dry thoroughly or else the Alclad will rub off.

See why I'm confused???

I like Bob's answer best: Read the instructions. Nobody knows how to use the product better than the manufacturer.

[E St. Kruiser50]

Hi Harry
I dion't know if this is a definitive answer, but as I've said before ALSA CORP. has the same exact product called MIRRA CHROME, even though Alclad denies it, and they list there base as alcohol/acetone.
All you have to do is "pop" the top and smell it to tell what it is. DEFINATELY NOT LACQUER !!!

Also the MIRRA CHROME uses urethanes instead of lacquers, and it work fine. I have cross sprayed the products with each other and all is the same and works great.

I'm no expert by any means, and don't want to be , but I know what's worked for me equally sucessful.
I've given seminars in all three western states, including at the NNL WEST for Steve Hinson in 2007, and I heard about good results later.

To me, no one needs to be THE EXPERT, we just share different idea's and let you guy's decide what works .
The bottom line to me is, there are several ways to get from point A to point B, so try a few different idea's from what you read here, and see what works for you.

MY 2 cent's

Here's an earlier post Harry - to confuse you more

[Harry P.]

My head hurts...

[E St. Kruiser50]

My head hurts...

[Foxer]

ok you guys can have your fun, but I'm close to doing my first Alclad job!!!!!!!!!!



but, I'm sure I'll be ok being there has been so much here lately on this topic. I picked out the answers my Magic 8-Ball liked best, shook, not stirred and the way i read it 9after my headache subsided) is...

use red oxide primer first on the part when there's a 85% chance of rain

Then flow massive coats of Alclad over the flat red and before it dries cover with gloss black lacquer and a last coat of Alclad so it reflects back on it self and then shines outward

errrrrrr ,,,,, did I understand that right???

[E St. Kruiser50]

ok you guys can have your fun, but I'm close to doing my first Alclad job!!!!!!!!!!
but, I'm sure I'll be ok being there has been so much here lately on this topic. I picked out the answers my Magic 8-Ball liked best, shook, not stirred and the way i read it 9after my headache subsided) is...

use red oxide primer first on the part when there's a 85% chance of rain

Then flow massive coats of Alclad over the flat red and before it dries cover with gloss black lacquer and a last coat of Alclad so it reflects back on it self and then shines outward

errrrrrr ,,,,, did I understand that right???

(You get the same as Harry)

[pharr7226]

This is hilarious!!!

[slant6]

Well. the gloss black worked.



Thanks to everyone for all the help. I have another question though. Has anyone ever tried using this over other colors, and if so, what were the results?

[Foxer]

To Dave of Treehugger fame:

I truly appreciate all the input you've given on the use of Alclad .. and everyone else that has contributed. I really am ready to try this for the first time. Just waiting for spring and some warmer temps now.

[frozono]

i use the black gloss base and i let it dries for 24 H. next day i a plied 2 lite coats and let it dries for 3 H.











and for a little tip i sealed with Future. and enhances the shine, and protect the finish from get dull and works super...

(in the pics i aplied 2 coats of Future)

[E St. Kruiser50]

Well. the gloss black worked.



Thanks to everyone for all the help. I have another question though. Has anyone ever tried using this over other colors, and if so, what were the results?

I've tried several other colors, but am most "Satisfied" with the black, not only with the Alclad, but also using it with my water-based chrome system.
"Satisfied" being a "Relative Term", it's always good to experiment on sample pieces to see what results you may get with other 'Glossy" base colors that could happily surprise you.

It's fun to step "Outside The Box" periodically, as that's what helps this hobby move forward and grow.

All the best - dave

[Harry P.]

Dave-tell us about your water-based chrome system.

[E St. Kruiser50]

Dave-tell us about your water-based chrome system.

Hi Harry
As you've probably figured out by now, I'm a fairly intense and dedicated builder.
I have a 5X10 walk in spray booth that is lit heated and vented and has air cond. available to use if needed ( In Oregon ??? ), a complete machine shop, a photo-etch system, several paint urethane systems, and several chrome systems, including the "Commercial Water-based Chrome system" I mentioned. I guess you could call me an "Enthusiast" .

The water based chrome systems chemical package was "Several Thousand $$$$" to purchase and set up, and then all the guns I had to purchase and some I had to design and create. A full size commercial system ranges in price between $7500 - $15,000, plus $2800 - $5,500 for the chemical packages.
I had to design and build a double nozzle air-brush, and a dual nozzle HVLP 4 1/2 oz. gun, and re-formlate all the chemical ratios mixtures, as this has never been done with an air-brush before, to my knowledge. Non of the commercial manufacturers could help me, as they had never heard of scaling down their chemical process from a dual nozzle 3 gallon system, to a 3/4 oz. custom made dual-nozzle air-brush system.
You have to shoot a particular over-lap spray pattern during the chroming process, and available equipment for miniature model part's didn't exist, so I basically invented one. It took me 2 years and probably over a thousand hours to get where I was satisfied with the result's . I continue to perfect the system and add more capacity, while maintaing the same nozzle's.
The system takes 7 dedicated guns for each of the four steps in this 8 stage system. I ended up buying over 20 guns, experimenting to see which gave the best result's.
There are 13 chemicals, including the four that are shot all at once, combining in the air, from the dual nozzle guns. There is also a special water that all the chemicals are mixed with. The water is charcol filtered using a reverse osmosis process. I use a special testing device called a TDS meter to check the quality of the water.
Every critical step in this 8 stage process requires fresh chemicals, the right timing between stages and steps, proper air temperature, and correct air pressures for spraying, to guarantee maximum sucessful result's.
Several of the stages I either re-designed or re-invented, and added an extra urethane base color to bring up the clarity, and used a different color tint in the top-coat for more "DAZZLE".

There are 3, sometimes 4, catalyzed urethane systems also used in the process.
Everything is water clear, so it's really amazing to see the incredible chrome appear like majic as you spray.
It takes 4 days, and nearly 40 hours from start to finish, to complete the process.

Here's the spray set-up


Here's all the chemicals and supplies


And here's some finished parts.

Edited by Treehugger Dave, 19 April 2009 - 10:24 PM.

[Foxer]

I guess you could call me an "Enthusiast"

The water based chrome system
It takes 4 days from start to finish to complete the process.

Here's the spray set-up


Here's all the chemicals and supplies


And here's some finished parts.

OMG!

but I'd love to see those images blown way up... don't you have a new camera????

That's a pretty amazing system... yes, you're insane!

[E St. Kruiser50]

OMG!

but I'd love to see those images blown way up... don't you have a new camera????

That's a pretty amazing system... yes, you're insane!

During several years of my career as a Tooling and Design Manager, I learned the benefit of keeping as much as we could in-house, for repeateability of quality, and accuracy for our products.

The water-based chrome system I use, I could never justify the cost, but I knew what kind of repeateably controlled quality I wanted, and was definetly up for such a huge challange. Something I always enjoy. Kinda my "Goofy Nature" .

These "Snaps" were taken several years ago with a "Film Camera" BD ( Before Digital ), and then just recently scanned and downloaded into my image hosting account.

NO - I WON'T RE-SET EVERYTHING UP SO YOU CAN SEE BIGGER PIC'S

YES - I'M INSANE - AND LOVE IT

Edited by Treehugger Dave, 19 April 2009 - 10:12 PM.

[cruz]

Well, I don't know about you guys but I say everything with pictures and yes, I use Model Master Gloss Black and nothing else. After warming my paint and applying it nice and wet, I wait only 1 to 2 hours and shoot my Alclad very lightly. I have never needed to rub it at the end. For some reason I have found out that when the paint is in the "tacky" stage before drying, the Alclad works better for me. This is just my humble opinion but I always say, practice and test before any Alclad session!!

Everything chrome on this Cobra is Alcladed including the rims.

This is Alclad Aluminum with the same black base, not very different than the chrome for this Corolla's wheels.

Bumpers and rear light bezels are Alcladed on this Impala.

Velocity stacks on this Falcon. I have tried all the methods mentioned on this thread, I am keeping this one but I am sure that every person is going to have their own opinions and that I certainly can respect!!!

[E St. Kruiser50]

Well, I don't know about you guys but I say everything with pictures

You must be Egyptian