82 replies to this topic

[Peter Lombardo]

I take pride in the fact that I like to build projects that are out of the ordinary without being too far out in space. I think the Dodge Charger Concept project car that I have underway now is a good example of a build that is anything but box stock. My entire collection of model cars and trucks, not counting race car replica’s, contains maybe five builds that have not been heavily modified or changed into a unique model. I really like have builds that are not common.

Now I have two very ambitious projects that I have been planning for some time now that I want to build. I have just begun one of these projects and I thought I would challenge myself to complete it by posting the concept and beginning stages here. This will help keep me focused because I will not start a project on this forum and not finish it, one way or another. I will keep the second ambitious build, which goes in a completely different direction, under wraps for a while longer because I don’t want to tip my hand just yet.

Last year I took the Auburn Speedster model by Lindberg and modified it into a roadster of my own design. I really enjoyed the process of designing and building a car. That car used an existing kit as its basis, which is fine, but now I want to build a second car, a mate of sorts to go with the Cybele Special, but not from a kit. I want to create this cars body completely from scratch. I plan on building most of the interior and chassis from scratch also. I plan on sourcing the suspension and engine components from kits, but the bulk of this project will be unique. And if that is not a big enough challenge, I am planning to carve the body from wood and than vacuum-form the body panels from the mold.

This car will be a hardtop, well actually a fastback design, very similar to the Cybele except I am planning a more art deco body with curvy flowing lines accented with large wet looking chrome molding and full fender skirts both front and rear. This car is influenced by the amazingly beautiful flowing art deco cars of Emile Delahaye who built some of the most beautiful cars of the 1930’s.

So the first thing I did was work out the basic lines of the body on paper. I did a few preliminary designs but settled on the one that followed the Cybele kind of closely. Than I went down the hobby shop and picked up 4, 2 foot by 3 inch planks of bass wood, which I cut in half. <img src="http://farm4.static....f063d345_b.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Next I glued the 8 planks together with wood glue and than clamped the block down for a few days to dry. Once dry, I drew the basic outline of the car on the block’s top and one side.

<img src="http://farm4.static....ee24842c_b.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Once that was done, I traced out the design on another piece of paper to be used as a guide once I begin grinding down the wood. <img src="http://farm3.static....d64e409c_b.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://farm3.static....ec853002_b.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://farm3.static....d950a342_b.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://farm3.static....514859d9_b.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://farm3.static....5175fd87_b.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
My plan here is to get the outside of the body carved in wood and than, using the Vacuum Forming system that my son purchased a few months ago to create the body. This unit is pretty cool. It handles molds that are up to 12 inches and has a connection for the vacuum cleaner hose. The styrene sheets get heated in the oven until they are “wavy” and than dropped over the mold and the “sucking” begins

As of right now, I am not sure if the body will come in one piece or if I will be forced to mold it in sections, like left fender, right fender, center body. I am learning as I go, but one way or another, I will get the body finished.

I am looking forward to this project because it is something completely new for me. As I have said before, I try and push myself with each build, to break new personal ground. With this, I am not just breaking ground, I am excavating a foundation for a high rise.

This car is going to be a royal dark blue with cream trim. The paint break lines will be different from the Cybele Roadster, but the lineage and origin will be clear.

Ok, this weekend the sawing, grinding and sanding will begin….this will be interesting.

Edited by Peter Lombardo, 03 January 2010 - 05:42 AM.

[Jantrix]

Here's something I found that might give you some added inspiration.
http://horsepowerspo...arrett-jackson/

I can't wait to sthis take shape.

[BKIN10SECS]

Wow....go for it....I am very interested to see this process take place. Please keep us updated with plenty of pics...Good Luck

[Hizoot]

Good luck with that Peter,

You gotta admire someone who wants to expand or improve their skills. I've thought that it would be cool to make a scratch build body & carve my way into history. BUT when it came time to execuit, like on my Full Force Kustom (shown below) I found that I needed a guide & would rather build up rather than carving down... Now that's just me , you may fair much better but either way, you'll be looking at several months for this to develope..! It seems to me the "hard part" will be those subtle lines you'll want as the basic shape is revieled. Again, GOOD LUCK hope you do it & hope you enjoy the photos...





Hizoot

Edited by Hizoot, 16 September 2009 - 08:07 PM.

[Geezerman]

Ambitious project. Good luck with it.
Those old cars are sleek and beautiful.
Unlike the Zamboni School of design that saturates the modern auto scene today.

[Foxer]

A coupe will be glorious! Very ambitious, Peter .. gonna be watching closely.

[charlie8575]

I like the design. Very nice work you've got there.

Charlie Larkin

[Tony T]

Sounds like a great way to expand your skill, and challenge yourself. Lovely design! I love the Cybele, too!

[Peter Lombardo]

Well, I dug out my hand held grinder and cut the basic shape into the block of wood.


When the basic’s were complete, I took to it with my over worked Dremel tool. Using a small and medium size grinding wheels, I began shaping the rough detail on the car.

As I began working the rear of the car, I realized that it would look a little better if I made a few “field changes”. I reworked the back end to incorporate a stylized “Duck-tail” into the look.



This is a long way from being even close to complete, but the basic look is clearly beginning to take shape. I will have a center character line running down the entire length of the car ending in a little point at the tail end.


The nose is exaggerated too long, but that is the design I am going for. I want a VERY Art Deco look to this. There will be chrome trim along the bottom and a very “fast” look to it. Right now the wood shape if still too big, but it will be slowly ground down to just under the right size so that the vacuum form plastic will be the correct scale. I can’t wait to get this to the point where I can begin playing with the vacuum form machine….this is all new to me and I love the challenge of a new technique to learn.

[Foxer]

That's one heck of a lot of sanding! I'm loving the shape of that body.

You're a brave man, Peter, doing this right in front of us for your first time. This is a fantastic subject and I'm gonna love watching!

[E St. Kruiser50]

HEY PETER - YA BEAT ME
Seriously though, this is gonna be cool.
I'll have fun watchin' your progress .

My career was in vacuum forming for nearly 40 years.
At Lancer Co., back in the 60's we made multi-piece molds, so we could form over compound curves and under-cuts, and then get all the pieces out - sometime 5 piece molds.

Next year when I do my scratch bodies, I'll be using fiberglass instead of forming with styrene.
For me, a lot more stable and ridged to work with, even when layin' up with a veil cloth.

Beautiful design on the body style.




Lookin' forward to your progress - dave

[Peter Lombardo]

Thanks Dave…..you bring up a point that I touched on in an earlier post on this subject. I was planning from the “get go” to do this as a one piece body and then cut open the hood and doors. But the more I look at the wood shape, with a very real set of complex curves, I am beginning to think that I may need to break up the finished wooden buck once it is complete so I can form the pieces separately. I am willing to bet right now that that is what I will end up doing…we’ll see…what are your thoughts on this issue? How would this be done in a commercial shop?

Obviously, a professional shop is far more sophisticated and has better equipment, as I have a small home vacuum form rig, but how would they do it? Once the components are finished I can then glue and putty them back into the complete car. I really don’t know as I will learn as I go with this. This is the fun of it; I need to try different techniques to expand my abilities.

I figure that I can get the basic shape done in wood and then add the trim and window detail to the plastic vacuum formed body…we’ll see how that works out. I am planning a Viper engine and a completely scratch built chassis and interior. That part will be easy.

As I am looking at the wood buck, I am thinking that I should make myself another wood block, just a little wider and carve this body from it, add some wood wheel bottoms, and stain it and clear coat it as a plan wooden sculpture. It might look pretty cool.

So, let me know your thoughts since this is right up your alley. P.S. Remember I told you I had two unique builds planned for the future, well this is number one, but wait until you see want I am planning for number two. It should be ( I say “should” because it may be too difficult to pull off) wild if I can do it. Sorry I jumped your plans on the unique building of a car of your own design….get going on yours, I want to see it. Come on; don’t leave me out here alone.

[E St. Kruiser50]

Thanks Dave…..you bring up a point that I touched on in an earlier post on this subject. I was planning from the “get go” to do this as a one piece body and then cut open the hood and doors. But the more I look at the wood shape, with a very real set of complex curves, I am beginning to think that I may need to break up the finished wooden buck once it is complete so I can form the pieces separately. I am willing to bet right now that that is what I will end up doing…we’ll see…what are your thoughts on this issue? How would this be done in a commercial shop?

Obviously, a professional shop is far more sophisticated and has better equipment, as I have a small home vacuum form rig, but how would they do it? Once the components are finished I can then glue and putty them back into the complete car. I really don’t know as I will learn as I go with this. This is the fun of it; I need to try different techniques to expand my abilities.

I figure that I can get the basic shape done in wood and then add the trim and window detail to the plastic vacuum formed body…we’ll see how that works out. I am planning a Viper engine and a completely scratch built chassis and interior. That part will be easy.

As I am looking at the wood buck, I am thinking that I should make myself another wood block, just a little wider and carve this body from it, add some wood wheel bottoms, and stain it and clear coat it as a plan wooden sculpture. It might look pretty cool.

So, let me know your thoughts since this is right up your alley. P.S. Remember I told you I had two unique builds planned for the future, well this is number one, but wait until you see want I am planning for number two. It should be ( I say “should” because it may be too difficult to pull off) wild if I can do it. Sorry I jumped your plans on the unique building of a car of your own design….get going on yours, I want to see it. Come on; don’t leave me out here alone.

Hey Peter

My first reaction after reading you were going to vacuum form the body, and looking at the shape, was that you will have some challanges, especially using an inexpensive former.
To me the most troubling issue will be the plastic thinning un-evenly during the forming process, that in the industry is called "DRAPE FORMING".

Plastic cools very quickly, so anything it touches when hot becomes an instant heatsink, to chill the plastic, whether it's steel, alum, wood, etc. Some just make it "CHILL" faster than others.

What happens during forming is the plastic hits the roof and top of the fenders first, and immediately beging cooling very rapidly.
The plastic wants to keep moving because of the vacuum, so it continues to "STRETCH" over the top, and down the sides, getting thinner as it reaches the base the mold sits on..
You'll have places where the plastic thins out dramaticaly, because of the point where the chilling ends and the "STRETCHING" continues at several points.

In the "INDUSTRY" we used a method called "SNAP-BACK FORMING" to overcome that problem.

An "industrial Grade Machine has a moveable lower portion, and an upper portion, where accessories for different styles of tooling and forming can be mounted.

For what your doing, we constructed a "DRAW BOX" which the heated plastic was either draped and vacuumed into, or pulled up inside of with vacuum, to form a "BUBBLE OF PLASTIC" that the mold was pushed into, and then the vacuum turned on - All done with timers, and now computor controlled.

The stretching of the plastic was done ahead of time under controlled conditions, and as you know, us guy's LOVE CONTROL .

This process allowed us to get a very even thickness all over.

PLENTY OF VACUUM HOLES is another area I can't stress enough to be important, especially in the lower area's, and recesses of the body where the plastic will tend to STRETCH ACROSS. You want the plastic to "SNAP DOWN" very quickly because of cooling and un-even stretching you'll experience.

The last thing is that plastic likes to form "WEBS", especially at the corners, because it has to do something when it get's there .
When you get to that point, I'll help walk you through it, if you want.

If there is a vacuum forming business in your area, you may want to go and talk to them, as they could be a good resource, if they're willing to help. Depends on the company.
Other good resource's for your research on the HOW TO'S OF VACUUM FORMING are librarys and book stores.

I'm sure you can pull this off, but you'll find there is a learning curve - SO BE PATIENT AND STAY WITH IT, AND YOU'LL LEARN A LOT , and have a beautiful project to show for it when your done, and it'll be a lot of fun too - WE NEED THE FUN .

For me, NEXT YEAR, I have a couple of "PRE-CAR SCRATCH-BUILDS I MAY DO FIRST.
A few of my own surprises .

By the way.
The plastic you'll be using is extruded rather than injection molded, so don't expect the same properties in the sheet you'll be using, as you have in the kit bodies, as they are two seperate types of processes. Your extruded sheet will be much more 'FLEXABLE' AND SOFTER, so you'll have to depend much more on the shape, and how you support it and mount it, to give your car the ridgidity it will need .

Edited by Treehugger Dave, 28 September 2009 - 06:35 AM.

[Peter Lombardo]

Thanks Dave, you really are a wealth of knowledge. I appreciate your tips. I will have to do some serious research on the subject of valuum forming. I never run from a challenge and this will test me. Thanks for the insight.

Edited by Peter Lombardo, 28 September 2009 - 06:36 AM.

[Bernard Kron]

Beautiful sculpture on its way to becoming a gorgeous car, I'm sure. At this early stage what are you doing to ensure symmetry of the shapes from side to side?

[Peter Lombardo]

Thanks for the comments….I have a contour gauge. It is a 6 inch ruler looking thing that has metal rods that protrude from each side of the ruler, above and below….the metal rods move in and out…it looks like a very tight comb…like a large double sided flea comb for animals. As you press it against the contour of one side the rods move and make a duplicate of the shape. You then turn it over and lay it on the other side to see how the contours line up with the first side. It is not perfect but it gives you a very nice clear picture of how the sides look in reference to each other….simple but very effective.

[Peter Lombardo]

I have, for all intents and purposes completed the wood “buck” for my first attempt at vacuum forming. I still have a little fine sanding to complete, but it is done except for that. The block of wood that I started with was just a little too narrow so I had to add some Bondo putty to the wheel bulges to get them where I was happy. I knew all along that I needed to widen the wheel area, but waited until I was finished with the bigger sculpting.



I am really happy with the look of the car now. I have made some changes to the rough initial design as I was working the wood because it just flowed better, in my eye.



I have the grill opening just as I want it and I am especially happy with the way the little wind splits slide off of the bottom of the grill opening and flow into the front wheel fender. They form a line that is carried all the way down to, and over the rear fender and then end up forming my “Little duck tail” look to the rear.



I also love the contour accent line that runs from just behind the grill opening, down the hood line to the greenhouse and then flows down the rear to meet in the center point of the “duck Tail”. I am very happy with how the two lines run parallel down the rear and complete the flow. There is a center contour peak that runs down the rear from the roof to the tail.



Once the car is formed, there will be a chrome accent piece running down the center of the hood from the rear of the grill opening to the windshield housing. There will be stylized art deco chrome trim pieces running along the bottom of the car to accent the length and to highlight the art deco theme. I have omitted all of the trim, as it will be added to the body once, and assuming that I can successfully vacuum form the body.

Obviously I have omitted the headlights which will be added to the plastic body once it is formed. I am afraid they will cause problems with the vacuum forming. I am striving to keep the buck as simple as I can so as to not overload the vacuum forming process.

One way or another, this car will be built, I just am a little unsure of the vacuum forming process having never done it yet.

I know that I have exaggerated the to length and fender size on this, that is not by accident. I have designed it from the start to be big, round, long and audacious. I want it to be a charactericure of the cars of that era. I am looking for “art deco on steroids”. Extreme and bodacious.

I am even going to have fender skirts both front and rear. I am planning on a Viper V10 and most likely Viper running gear. I am building this as if it was a current build, with current running gear and technology, but with a retro art deco body. Why not? With all of the retro designs that the factories did, back in the days when they had the money to invest in concept cars, I think my little model car factory can turn out a retro concept too.

I have enjoyed the design and wood sculpting on this so much, I will have to do this again. But maybe next time with sculpting putty over a wood block. I have a few modern designs rolling around in my head that would be really different to create. Ok, next, I will begin playing around with the vacuum forming machine….that will be interesting and quite frustrating I am sure.

[Tony T]

The body looks fantastic!! You have taken your building to another level for sure. I'll be looking forward to seeing a successful completion, as I love your conceptualization, and think it is very cool!