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Show/Contest Judges - Touch Or No Touch?


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#21 CAL

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 12:19 PM

The Classic Plastic Club judges on the point system, and I believe they break that down into six categories: 1)Engine; 2)interior; 3)Chassis; 4)Paint; 5)Construction; and 6) Degree Of Difficulty.

When judging, if any one of those categories cannot be viewed (or viewed well), it results in a points loss. Many do display their models on a mirror, and also use something to raise the model. However, in all things being equal, the model that can be carefully lifted, may have a better chance of gaining more points, simply because the judge(s) were able to get a better view than a model that was limited by the view the mirror/platform offered. And don't forget lighting.

Again, we offer the option of checking a "Do Not Touch" box. Because I do not judge at contests, I do not know for a fact if one way has favor over another, but I do know it (each category) must first be well seen and visible to gain a high score.



I have been a judge and never had to pick up someone elses model the standing rule was you get the owner to pick it up if needed.

I think only once I had to have an owner pick up a model in a tie-breaker situation.

To be honest, and maybe it's not fair, but I don't care what the bottom looks like - really. I have a pretty good idea of the model over all from guaging what I can see: fit and finish, paint, assembly, and overall appearance, decals, and glass. I also look for anything special or that stands out - especially if there is something that makes me ask myself how in the world did the builder do that. A bunch of poorly added details doesn't go very far with me.

#22 CAL

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 12:24 PM

I like the "Do not Handle" box idea. I must wonder how that effects the viewpoint of the judge. Some might have a problem judging fairly - but if you don't want your contest model judged by picking it up at a contest - it is your prerogative.


Trust me, it only bothers the ones a little too far over the edge, if you know what I mean.

#23 seeker589

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 12:52 PM

So who pays for the show car that gets destroyed? Or the irreplaceable race car that gets totaled? Who wants to be responsible for the Le Mans winning Ferrari that gets damaged? Do you want to be the one who gets to carry the damaged model to it's owner and say, "Sorry Dude, I dropped your car and it's destroyed. By the way it didn't place, we weren't done judging it yet. Sorry about that cool paint job, I don't think that will buff out." How about the side mirror that just fell off when you picked it up, or that wheel, or whatever. Do you think the owner is going to say, "That's OK, it was falling off anyway." Or do you think he'd say, "the stupid judges broke my model, I'm never coming back!" If I choose not to put a mirror under my model, that is my tough luck, don't judge that part. Should the judge pry the hood open to see the motor? What if I glued it shut? Or maybe it's just stuck. The whole idea sounds like a real good way to kill a show.


You make some very good points Ramcharger.

So who pays for the show car that gets destroyed? Or the irreplaceable race car that gets totaled? Who wants to be responsible for the Le Mans winning Ferrari that gets damaged?

The owner - period. There was an instance where a new road racer was learning to race his newly built Improved Touring B VW-GTI - he misjudged traction and his braking point and rear-ended a Honda Civic HARD! Ultimately - the responsibility was of the owners of their respective cars. Competition is dangerous and you can't have insurance coverage on the racetrack - if you can - how much would that cost?!

Vintage racing has rules about incidents on track - one contact incident has something like a year banishment. The second is either lifetime banishment or some other stiff penalty.

When entering a show (1:1 or scale/ NNL or judged contest) a model owner takes risk. The Crowd can get unruly or the judge can get careless.

I just feel that in order to prove your model better than the next model - the scrutiny of the judge includes handling.

I once had a model in Rod And Custom like in 1990. I had no idea that Pat Ganahl picked up my model and carried it to his photo area. Some friends of mine told me this and I didn't believe 'em - until the car showed up in a little B&W pic. I can not replace the thrill of seeing my car in a magazine - that never would have happened if there was a no touch rule.

Quitting because something gets broken or doesn't go in the builder's favor does not reflect maturity.

How much respect did we give the kid who got angry when he lost his baseball or soccer game?

When a model gets damaged, a race car gets wrecked or a show car gets damaged - life doesn't end. Heartbreak is part of life - how we recover from that heartbreak shows the strength of our character. Withdrawing from competition or NNL shows out of fear lets the whole hobby lose out on what that builder has to contribute.

Those who have quit - please give it another chance - how will I know if my model is better than a model that never got entered?


#24 Aaronw

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 01:12 PM

I really don't see any reason a model needs to be handled to be judged. It should be judged as displayed.

Would a curbside be judged differently than a full detail kit? (as far as I know curbside is not usually a seperate class).

The way I see it the builder needs to make some decisions on the display of the model. If you spent 9 hours detailing the motor including putting little Mallory decals on the spark plug wires, then you should probably display the model with the hood up, or maybe even on an engine stand beside the car. If you spent time detailing the under carriage find a way to show that (mirror, up on a lift etc).

You wouldn't take the models out of a diorama to check hidden bits, so why is there a need to do so when displayed alone.

#25 seeker589

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 01:58 PM

Thank Everyone for your input and very good discussion.

Seeing every-bodies varied response - would a standard rule set be a good idea for all model contests? A rule set that would let everyone feel more secure that their entry on the table is being viewed and treated safely - regardless of having their models handled or not handled.

Something like -

Car classification - (Street Machine, Hot rod, curbside, truck, fire apps., etc.)
judge's handling rules/ "Do not Handle" option
Entry procedure - contest entry open and close time - grace period of late entries.
Awards procedure

Having separate Handling and No-handling classes would be silly - but splitting contests from neighboring host clubs and saying that one contest is a Handle contest - standard rules and having the other contest a Tabletop/no handle - standard rules may be a good answer. Those in that region could then choose if they wanted to enter either or both contests.

We could call it the "Donn Yost Act" or the "Don't fondle my models manifesto". How about the "Tim Lantz standard or TLS."<<<< I like that one!

How is judging at the GSLMCC done?

#26 Chuck Most

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 02:03 PM

Let a stranger touch my models? Why I think not!

You might as well be asking if you can touch my daughter. Well, you know, if I had a daughter. Which I don't.

As far as I know...

#27 jbwelda

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 03:29 PM

i think to deal with everyones little pecularities a better rule would be: if you allow your car to be handled, it will be judged in all categories and get points in all categories. if you do NOT allow your car to be handled and its not displayed in a way you can see the undercarriage for instance, then you dont get points for the undercarriage portion.

most points wins, so of course it behooves the entrant to have his whole car judged.

there are problems there too: if you got the hood up to see the motor, how does the judge know it sits level when closed?

the secret is to not take it too serious and dont blow a blood vessel, eg:

>I was 12 when it happened, the Teacher EVEN KNEW who took it, an DIDN'T do ANYTHING about it! ( other than to say, "Oh, I
>thought it was HIS!!!") NEVER entered another contest EVER!!!!!

c'mon man, einstein didnt invent evolution for nothing.

#28 chris coller

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 03:35 PM

I would flip out and probably break someone's arm if they had picked up my model and dropped. The money , the time, research all that. I agree with displaying the models properly so all angles can be judged. If a builder super details a model it is up to the builder to display it properly. Plain and simple! No judge should ever handle a builders model. Just my opinion and disagree all you want. "Touch my stuff and I'll kill ya" "Calm down Francis" Obviously I am going overboard on the arm breaking, but I would be more than maaaaaaaaaad.

#29 seeker589

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 03:52 PM

I would flip out and probably break someone's arm if they had picked up my model and dropped. The money , the time, research all that. I agree with displaying the models properly so all angles can be judged. If a builder super details a model it is up to the builder to display it properly. Plain and simple! No judge should ever handle a builders model. Just my opinion and disagree all you want. "Touch my stuff and I'll kill ya" "Calm down Francis" Obviously I am going overboard on the arm breaking, but I would be more than maaaaaaaaaad.



Thanks for clearing up the whole arm breaking thing.

Being mad at someone is a very valid emotion if they were to cause damage to a model you built. Causing someone painful harm in reaction to that damage is very unacceptable. How you deal with that anger is how character is measured.

There is a satisfaction in not allowing disasters like the damage of a model bother you -the reward is being able to solve the problem and deal with the emotion without over-reacting.

My wife has told me time and again - "You CHOOSE to be angry or not-angry." Mood and reactions are chosen.

Any subject that involves emotion, like contact or damage done to a model, is a very touchy subject. Much like faith.

#30 E St. Kruiser50

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 03:58 PM

Thank Everyone for your input and very good discussion.

How is judging at the GSLMCC done?



Mark insists that handling is a requirement for judging properly.

When I took the Hollywood Graham there in 2007, and put a don't touch sign next to it, Mark tried to be polite, but was definetly "Ruffled" Posted Image .
Marks funny. Once he calmed down, everything was fine, and I won.

Contestants aren't always the only one's with attitude Posted Image Posted Image when the pressure's on.

Oh, about the across the board contest rules for every event no matter where - NEVER HAPPEN.

TOO MANY DIFFERENT IDEA'S ABOUT HOW THEY SHOULD BE RUN.

Edited by Treehugger Dave, 15 January 2010 - 04:02 PM.


#31 seeker589

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 04:05 PM

i think to deal with everyones little pecularities a better rule would be: if you allow your car to be handled, it will be judged in all categories and get points in all categories. if you do NOT allow your car to be handled and its not displayed in a way you can see the undercarriage for instance, then you dont get points for the undercarriage portion.

most points wins, so of course it behooves the entrant to have his whole car judged.

there are problems there too: if you got the hood up to see the motor, how does the judge know it sits level when closed?

the secret is to not take it too serious and dont blow a blood vessel, eg:

>I was 12 when it happened, the Teacher EVEN KNEW who took it, an DIDN'T do ANYTHING about it! ( other than to say, "Oh, I
>thought it was HIS!!!") NEVER entered another contest EVER!!!!!

c'mon man, einstein didnt invent evolution for nothing.



So what you are saying is "Those who trust the judges have an advantage over those who don't trust anyone but themselves." Risk can have great reward.

Is it trust issues or separation anxiety that causes people to not wanna touch their stuff?

Those that prefer not to have judges touch their models - do you loan any tools when a neighbor or fellow modeler needs something?

#32 Smart-Resins

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 04:05 PM

I have judged contests. I will put it like this. If your model is so so, we dont need to pick it over. If you are the best hands down, we dont need to pick over it. If there are two or three or more models that are all say museum quality, then how the heck are we supposed to choose? Only by getting down right on the model and checking in it and under it. Suggestion. You dont want a judge to pick it up, bring it with a good mirroed display so the judges dont have to pick it up. Simple! I personally would be upset if someone stole or broke my model yes. But it is also common knowledge when you go that those things may happen and you enter knowing that!! Likewise, if you enter a model without a mirrored display and it is worth having to check out, expect someone to have to pick it up. So another words, y you enter it at your risk, so do what it takes to minimize those risks and help your model get judged better! Jody

#33 seeker589

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 04:08 PM

Mark insists that handling is a requirement for judging properly.

When I took the Hollywood Graham there in 2007, and put a don't touch sign next to it, Mark tried to be polite, but was definetly "Ruffled" Posted Image .
Marks funny. Once he calmed down, everything was fine, and I won.

Contestants aren't always the only one's with attitude Posted Image Posted Image when the pressure's on.

Oh, about the across the board contest rules for every event no matter where - NEVER HAPPEN.

TOO MANY DIFFERENT IDEA'S ABOUT HOW THEY SHOULD BE RUN.


I must come out and say that I agree with Mark Gus-----n on this. Sorry.

I don't agree with penalizing those that don't want their models touched by docking points for unseen areas, however. This would come back to how it is displayed.

About the standard rules never happening due to too many Ideas on how contests should be run - I think this is a demonstration of the previously mentioned Testosterone. :huh: :)

Edited by seeker589, 15 January 2010 - 04:10 PM.


#34 seeker589

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 04:12 PM

I have judged contests. I will put it like this. If your model is so so, we dont need to pick it over. If you are the best hands down, we dont need to pick over it. If there are two or three or more models that are all say museum quality, then how the heck are we supposed to choose? Only by getting down right on the model and checking in it and under it. Suggestion. You dont want a judge to pick it up, bring it with a good mirroed display so the judges dont have to pick it up. Simple! I personally would be upset if someone stole or broke my model yes. But it is also common knowledge when you go that those things may happen and you enter knowing that!! Likewise, if you enter a model without a mirrored display and it is worth having to check out, expect someone to have to pick it up. So another words, y you enter it at your risk, so do what it takes to minimize those risks and help your model get judged better! Jody


Very well put! Now I know why it is SMART-resins. :)

#35 Jeff Sauber

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 04:14 PM

Wanna freak out the judges who like to pick stuff up?

Don't attach the chassis, or interiors to the bodies, and as soon as an over-eager judge goes in for a "hands on inspection" and feels the car's sub-assemblies begin to seperate, he'll be put that car right the heck back down!!...... :)







Personally, whenever I display my work, I use a custom display base that I fabricated along with mirrors, so theres no need to fingerprint the hell out of my cars by touching them and trying to get a peek up their skirts.....

I spend a couple hours polishing out my finishes, so I'll be darned if someone is gonna come along a feel up my merchandise and leave great big globs of greasy grimy paw prints everywhere, or accidently cause parts to come loose or whatever.

Edited by J. Sauber, 15 January 2010 - 04:16 PM.


#36 E St. Kruiser50

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 04:43 PM

Lot's of opinions here, but there is a BOTTOM LINE ( At least to me Posted Image ) when entering a contest.

(1) If you don't like what the people do that run the contest - SIMPLE- don't enter.
(2) If winning comes before having a good time, then you're building for the wrong reason - GET ANOTHER HOBBY.

LASTLY, this is about the umteenth time this topic has come up over the years, with everyone sharing their opinions, including those never ever close to a contest ????Posted Image , and the same exact opinions always surface from a new group of people, then the topic goes away and we go on with our modeling as if this topic never came up Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image.

Not saying it shouldn't be discussed, or beat to death again Posted Image , just funny how some things never change,
INCLUDING CONTEST RULES AND JUDGING Posted Image .

#37 CAL

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 05:14 PM

Wanna freak out the judges who like to pick stuff up?

Don't attach the chassis, or interiors to the bodies, and as soon as an over-eager judge goes in for a "hands on inspection" and feels the car's sub-assemblies begin to seperate, he'll be put that car right the heck back down!!...... :)







Personally, whenever I display my work, I use a custom display base that I fabricated along with mirrors, so theres no need to fingerprint the hell out of my cars by touching them and trying to get a peek up their skirts.....

I spend a couple hours polishing out my finishes, so I'll be darned if someone is gonna come along a feel up my merchandise and leave great big globs of greasy grimy paw prints everywhere, or accidently cause parts to come loose or whatever.



They did that to a IPMS judge, put a car on a base, made it roll really well, and put it together with elmers glue. :D

#38 CAL

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 05:19 PM

So what you are saying is "Those who trust the judges have an advantage over those who don't trust anyone but themselves." Risk can have great reward.

Is it trust issues or separation anxiety that causes people to not wanna touch their stuff?

Those that prefer not to have judges touch their models - do you loan any tools when a neighbor or fellow modeler needs something?



Not so much. I have found by and large if it isn't their's they don't take care of it like I take care of my stuff and it is never returned in the same condition it was lent out in. So, unless it is something I can easily replace have a dup of or don't care about that much yeah go ahead and take it. Anything that would be expensive to replace, I couldn't live without or a precision machine or tool. Not on your life.

#39 CAL

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 05:19 PM

So what you are saying is "Those who trust the judges have an advantage over those who don't trust anyone but themselves." Risk can have great reward.

Is it trust issues or separation anxiety that causes people to not wanna touch their stuff?

Those that prefer not to have judges touch their models - do you loan any tools when a neighbor or fellow modeler needs something?



Not so much. I have found by and large if it isn't their's they don't take care of it like I take care of my stuff and it is never returned in the same condition it was lent out in. So, unless it is something I can easily replace have a dup of or don't care about that much yeah go ahead and take it. Anything that would be expensive to replace, I couldn't live without or a precision machine or tool. Not on your life.

I have no reason to trust anyone. Everyone I ever trusted eventually let me down in some way. Trust is something I don't have a lot of faith or take a lot of stock in.

Of course it depends on degree. You can use my bic lighter, but the drill press - no.

Edited by CAL, 15 January 2010 - 05:23 PM.


#40 jbwelda

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 10:09 PM

>Is it trust issues or separation anxiety that causes people to not wanna touch their stuff?

no, mostly its that you dont want the model broken by careless handling.

its not really freudian science you know. sometimes the most simple explanation really is the explanation.