Jump to content


Show/Contest Judges - Touch Or No Touch?


  • You cannot reply to this topic
111 replies to this topic

#41 Modelmartin

Modelmartin

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,836 posts
  • Location:No matter where you go...
  • Full Name:Mr. Yuk

Posted 16 January 2010 - 03:40 AM

c'mon man, einstein didnt invent evolution for nothing.



Hey, Man! Einstein invented the Bagel!

Charles darwin is rolling in his grave! :lol: :D

#42 Modelmartin

Modelmartin

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,836 posts
  • Location:No matter where you go...
  • Full Name:Mr. Yuk

Posted 16 January 2010 - 03:58 AM

I hate it when I am judging and some poorly built model disintegrates when you touch it! I usually take it out of consideration because it is so poorly built.

Judges are 99.9% super conscientious about handling models and only do so when absolutely necessary. When I judge I only do it to see the undersides and carefully pick a spot to touch it. I don't grab onto mirrors, antennae, or foiled drip rails! If the model is on its table card I will turn it by pulling on the card. Judges typically make a very concerted effort to not touch the model unless it is necessary and will not result in any harm to the model.

Some builders will leave handling instructions for the judge. It is greatly appreciated.

As a builder I am very careful to attach things very strongly. I will drill holes in the door and the back side of a mirror base and glue in a brass or piano wire pin to hold it. I once used piano wire with a loop bent into it as an antennae on a 1/43rd white metal Porsche. I drilled a hole through the roof and pushed the antennae through from the bottom so the loop was glued to the underside of the roof. Someone wanted to pick it up but asked me to because he was afraid of knocking off the antennae. I grabbed it and picked it up by the antennae! He almost had a coronary.

Edited by Modelmartin, 16 January 2010 - 04:45 AM.


#43 Ramcharger

Ramcharger

    MCM Avid Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 471 posts
  • Location:Co-lum-bus, O-Hi-O
  • Full Name:Ron

Posted 16 January 2010 - 04:36 AM

There was an instance where a new road racer was learning to race his newly built Improved Touring B VW-GTI - he misjudged traction and his braking point and rear-ended a Honda Civic HARD! Ultimately - the responsibility was of the owners of their respective cars. Competition is dangerous and you can't have insurance coverage on the racetrack - if you can - how much would that cost?!
I think I misunderstood the original post. In racing competition of course the owner is responsible for damage, I was thinking you were talking about a static show. If the judges are sitting in and starting a car at a static show, I'm thinking the owner is not responsible for damage by someone else. It kind of goes back to the idea of touching another man's wife - you just don't!

When entering a show (1:1 or scale/ NNL or judged contest) a model owner takes risk. The Crowd can get unruly or the judge can get careless. A risk that is out of everyone's control, I would think. Why increase it by purposely handling someone's model?

Quitting because something gets broken or doesn't go in the builder's favor does not reflect maturity.
I don't think I would quit competing, but the likelihood of me or my friends returning to that particular show would be slim to none - and Slim just left town!
How much respect did we give the kid who got angry when he lost his baseball or soccer game?
That's a different topic all together. If you lose, you need to build better, not whine more. Will you get screwed at a show - yes, if you compete long enough. But that is the nature of the game.
Excellent, mature discussion, BTW. Much better than what we have had lately around here! You, also, make some very valid points.

#44 Jon Cole

Jon Cole

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,422 posts
  • Location:NH, USA
  • Full Name:Jon... although my parents used to call me "KNOCK IT OFF!"

Posted 16 January 2010 - 10:12 AM

Something to consider through this thread that has not been touched on is the difference between a contest at a LHS, vs a contest hosted by a club. I would be leery of any contest at any LHS, and I have been to a few. Many of these shops are not run by people with a lot of knowledge of our hobby, and the risk is just not worth the reward; not to mention the usual mediocre number of entries. Winning a catagory by default is not worth winning.

Model builders and clubs are far better at putting on a good event. Builders are well aware of risk, and (in my experience) demonstrate far more caution handling a model than any typical hobby shop owner or manager would. Again, just my observation.

BTW, at our CPMCS event, the judges wear gloves, so no fingerprints. Honestly, my model is more at risk of damage if I carry it to the photographer, than it is by a judge picking it up.

Also, on a related note, a tip of the ol' hat to everyone on keeping the discussion here rightous.
:lol:

#45 Chuck Most

Chuck Most

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,029 posts
  • Location:Ithaca, Michiganistan
  • Full Name:^See Above

Posted 16 January 2010 - 11:54 AM

Wanna freak out the judges who like to pick stuff up?

Don't attach the chassis, or interiors to the bodies, and as soon as an over-eager judge goes in for a "hands on inspection" and feels the car's sub-assemblies begin to seperate, he'll be put that car right the heck back down!!...... :D


Evil. I like it! :D

Edited by Chuck Most, 16 January 2010 - 11:55 AM.


#46 Karmodeler2

Karmodeler2

    MCM Avid Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 427 posts
  • Location:Flying above the world.

Posted 16 January 2010 - 12:18 PM

Greetings fellow plastimaniacs! :D

At the end of the second DVD - Donn has some things to say about Show/Contest Judges touching and handling models. He REALLY doesn't like it! His solution is displaying models on mirrors or judging the model as it sits or the builder displaying/entering the model should be paged or located to "show" the hidden area.

Don is correct. You should never touch someone else's model. I don't want you, your family, anyone in your neighborhood, or on this planet touching my stuff. I would no more pick up your model than I would expect you to pick up mine. You judge the cars as they are on the table. If one has a detailed underside and is on a display, and one is not and both are very close in competition, then if the detailed underside one is done correct and clean, then it wins. If you want your model to be seen underneath, then elevate it



When an AACA member has his or her car judged - it is touched. When entering a concours - cars are touched, sat in, started, and the evaluation is VERY hands-on and stressful for the owner.

This is not an INTERACTIVE show. This is a STATIC model display contest. I glue my wheels on because I don't play with my models.

The thought I have is this - If you wanna compete and you wanna win - Having your finished model touched and quite possibly destroyed by accident is part of competition.

I'm not sure what you are smoking, but you must be out of your mind. My last model had over 1500 hours invested it in and you are telling me that part of competition is to have some lame brain destroy it?

What is nice - should a car get damaged - you get to use those parts in another kit or you get to rebuild the kit that has been damaged - changing or repairing things you wanted to but didn't get to in the first place.

Once again, I think you are on something


I'm really looking forward to hearing what others have to say about this subject. Please be kind - a different opinion isn't stupid - it's just different. :D

Nuf said







#47 Karmodeler2

Karmodeler2

    MCM Avid Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 427 posts
  • Location:Flying above the world.

Posted 16 January 2010 - 12:22 PM

I don't know why anyone needs to touch a model to judge it. After all it's a STATIC display model not an INTERACTIVE display model. It sould be the responsiblity of the builder to display the model for the biggest bang of the buck. It is the responsiblity of the judge to judge what he or she sees and not have to going looking for the super detailed rear end cover bolts with washers.

I donno, I think ever contest I have ever been to that was the rule, including the one where I have one of my models dropped. NO TOUCHING but some people can't seem to resist picking them up anyway.

They should have all there fingers broken.


Cal,
I could not agree with you more. Well put!!!! Now let me know when we can get to "snappin' " cause there are a few fingers I would like to snap!!!
David

#48 Chas SCR

Chas SCR

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 716 posts
  • Location:Michigan
  • Full Name:Chas Cochran

Posted 16 January 2010 - 12:30 PM

I gone to a lot of shows and really know of 1 that gets right down and pick's a car apart and I love this part of the Judge's doing there job. I have no troulbe of them lifting up my car to see if there is clue or some wax left over on the bottom of the car, or if some thing is missing. The GSL Judges are one of the top of the line people who do nit pick and I have no troulbe in this.

Last year from 1st to 5th in Street Machine was award by only one part each from car to car. Each person ( and yes my self) missed a part. To figur how who place it came down to what part was going to hurt the car more if it was a real car and make it not able to drive. Just think 1 part did all of this and not one of the top 5 cars had the same part missing.

Also if I can fly out to SLC and the car makes it there in one piece and yes if it gets damage in travel the Judges take a sight on this and do not nock it down for this. Also there is a box to check if you do not want your car picked up.

#49 Guest_Johnny_*

Guest_Johnny_*
  • Guests

Posted 16 January 2010 - 12:36 PM

I haven't entered a contest in a coon's age. But I used to enter in them frequently as a kid and a few as an adult!Never a National event just local hobby shop car show type contests!
I have a second place trophy. A tiny thing to some that I won at a local Hobby Shop when I was in 7Th or 8th Grade!
I have no problem with a judge carefully picking mine up to look at the bottom side!
Only ever remember them doing that at two contests. One man used a handkerchief and the other had on white cotton gloves!
I have had on model stolen, and three damaged at contests one unrepairable when a lady had a diabetic seizure and fell on a table collapsing it! I was more concerned for the woman than any of my models!
Sure it is a bad feeling but no reason to stop attending!
I quit as my building waned and work and everyday life got in the way!
I may enter in some local contests this next year and see what happens! I don't expect to win just like I never did at real car shows. I'm there to see what others have done, get new ideas and to have fun meeting others that share the hobby!
Let's not take things so serious guys! it just takes all the fun out of it! :D

#50 Modelmartin

Modelmartin

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,836 posts
  • Location:No matter where you go...
  • Full Name:Mr. Yuk

Posted 16 January 2010 - 04:37 PM

Let's not take things so serious guys! it just takes all the fun out of it! :D


It seems that the ones who are getting too serious are the ones who don't enter contests!

I take my building seriously and can compete nationally. I love it and have lots of fun doing it. I don't take myself too seriously. I think it is the LHS and club contests where most of the drama takes place.

#51 weasel

weasel

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 879 posts
  • Location:southern Ohio
  • Full Name:Dick Wessel, hence weasel...

Posted 17 January 2010 - 09:28 AM

i gotta agree with Andy on all points... having judged numerous contests, there're times when 2-3 3-4 models are in contention, they all have nice paint, good build quality, etc... so, it comes to the underside..seams gone?? detailed?? and on and on...you gotta pick them up!!

i would be EMBARESSED if something fell off one of my builds...i DO like the idea of the elmer's glue tho'...lol

anyway, i think that a judge is gonna handle the model as if it was his/hers anyway[i know I do..]...so, what's the problem??

#52 LoneWolf15

LoneWolf15

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,304 posts
  • Location:Pittsburgh Pa.

Posted 17 January 2010 - 10:49 AM

Being that my name was the first to get dragged into this .....

Anyone that has viewed the work of Jeff Sauber , Clay Kemp , Ted Lear , John Teresi ,Bill Bergen, etc ,up close and personal , will quickly come to the conclusion that their models are works of art , not toys ! Hundreds of hours are spent creating these pieces. The money spent , I won't even mention , that is their business !





One would not walk into a fine arts gallery and ask to fondle the Rembrandts or Van Goghs , now would they ? It is the same at a model car show , hands off . These models were put on display to be viewed and judged as they sit on the tables , nothing more ! Contestant did'nt use a display or mirror to get the frame up for the judges to view ? Oh Well !, more power and points to the individuals that did .

Last year , I had a hood chipped ,a scoop knocked off , a rear view mirror and part of a roll bar knocked off with a flashlight . I spent an hour reattaching the frame of my ' 40 Ford sedan , plus three side mirrors. This all occured at the Nationals in Columbus. Each of the cars had a Do Not Touch check in the proper box. For some ,this is a power trip , they figure the rules don't apply because they're judges.

While I do not put myself in the same category as a builder like the aforementioned gentlemen , I do build some very nice models. They are mine , and I work very hard on them . They are built to be taken back apart if need be, and are handled by myself in such a manor. When transporting show cars , accidents do occur! I can take the model apart , repair it and put it back together without any further damage to the body, frame , or interior. All the more reason for someone else to not be touching them !

One of these days , someone is going to screw up royal with the wrong individual's model. They are going to be dragged out into the parking lot and beaten silly. Me , I'll just stand there and watch as I laugh myself silly ! You got what you deserved ! Inherent risk only exists with racing the 1:1 cars. Model cars should be safe, just sitting on the table looking pretty for everyone to view and admire.

For those that think this is overboard , so be it . As far as I'm concerned..... I'd rather climb into a phone booth with a full grown grizzly , wearing pork chop panties then mess with one of Harry's Pocher kits. I believe it would be far less painful !

Donn Yost

Lone Wolf Custom Painting

#53 Aaronw

Aaronw

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,506 posts
  • Location:North Coast of California
  • Full Name:Aaron

Posted 17 January 2010 - 12:10 PM

Lot's of opinions here, but there is a BOTTOM LINE ( At least to me Posted Image ) when entering a contest.

(1) If you don't like what the people do that run the contest - SIMPLE- don't enter.
(2) If winning comes before having a good time, then you're building for the wrong reason - GET ANOTHER HOBBY.

LASTLY, this is about the umteenth time this topic has come up over the years, with everyone sharing their opinions, including those never ever close to a contest ????Posted Image , and the same exact opinions always surface from a new group of people, then the topic goes away and we go on with our modeling as if this topic never came up Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image.

Not saying it shouldn't be discussed, or beat to death again Posted Image , just funny how some things never change,
INCLUDING CONTEST RULES AND JUDGING Posted Image .



It goes both ways though, I am reading all the time about how contests are not seeing the kinds of numbers they used to. Contests that don't consider why this is happening will continue to shrink until they are two old guys judging each others cars.

My issue with touching is only partly based on potential damage, it is also based on fun sucking nit picking and if an award comes down to who painted their sway bar better, some people should re-evaluate their priorities.

Now I'm not saying the guy who kit bashes an old 1960s metal axle chassis kit, with a more modern detailed chassis should not get some credit for that, but it becomes his responsibilty to show he did it and did it well. However the guy who built the kit as is but perhaps spent his time detailing the interior and motor should not be knocked out because he did not go hog wild on the minimally detailed kit chassis. Sure as a tie breaker the guy with the detailed chassis should get the edge, but touching a model should be an exception not the rule.

Just me, but if judges have to check out the underside of a model, it is kind of like an art critic walking up to a painting and basing his critique on the backside of the canvas, that is not the point of the display. At what point are judges going to ask for the keys so they can hear the exhaust note of the motor?

#54 Steven Zimmerman

Steven Zimmerman

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 839 posts
  • Location:Meadville Pa
  • Full Name:Steven

Posted 17 January 2010 - 12:20 PM

I agree with Mister Yost here. I put way too much time and energy into my models to have some yay hoo pick them up at a contest -(I watched a judge nearly rip the door off a beautiful street rodded truck at the IPMS regionals in Cleveland last year,then when he DID get it open,he about wore out the hinges playing with the door)...... My stuff may not be the best on the table, but the LAST thing I want to do is have to repair something I have hundreds of hours in because it was mishandled by some one. I always display on a mirror with the model 'elevated' above that mirror There are some really nice and relatively cheap displays out there that break down flat and can easily be stored for travel........Another thing that drives me nuts--nearsighted people with ball caps on,looking closely at models on the contest table.....I don't know HOW many times I've seen somebody bump a model with their hat bill when they bend over to look at something jes' a 'lil closer.....

#55 James W

James W

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 577 posts
  • Location:Salem, Oregon, USA
  • Full Name:James

Posted 17 January 2010 - 01:18 PM

When I started entering contests, I built for them.

I made sure my models were not just pretty on a shelf but could be picked up and looked at without stuff falling off.

The moment your model leaves the workbench it is at risk.

If you think you can display a model at a show hundreds of miles away from home with hundreds of people in attendence and not be at risk...

I always get scared of models on display bases being hit by arms and hands going for the other cars on the table.

#56 Jon Cole

Jon Cole

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,422 posts
  • Location:NH, USA
  • Full Name:Jon... although my parents used to call me "KNOCK IT OFF!"

Posted 17 January 2010 - 02:22 PM

If it's there, it's going to be judged. If it doesn't agree with you, don't enter. Very simple.

Good point on the baseball hat, I can see where that would be a concern.

The judge 'forcing' the door open; if that was my model, I would be ticked off also. Thankfully it was not severely damaged. Having a "Do Not Handle" box is pointless if judges don't respect that.

Our club has a "shelf" class the rules state no handling of the model, it is judged as placed. Perhaps taking advantage of such a category could help those who want their model left alone.


#57 Karmodeler2

Karmodeler2

    MCM Avid Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 427 posts
  • Location:Flying above the world.

Posted 17 January 2010 - 03:39 PM

..... I'd rather climb into a phone booth with a full grown grizzly , wearing pork chop panties then mess with one of Harry's Pocher kits. I believe it would be far less painful !

Donn Yost

Lone Wolf Custom Painting


Donn,
would that be you wearing the panties or the bear?......I'm confused!!!! :)

#58 seeker589

seeker589

    MCM Avid Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 497 posts
  • Location:Lancaster, PA

Posted 17 January 2010 - 04:33 PM

WOW!!!!! ;) :D

Could someone please help me clean up these apples!!! I upset the Cart!

One thing we all have is passion - we wouldn't be here if we didn't. This thread has brought that out. I am very sorry if any of my posts upset anyone.

The things we create hold part of us in them - to be sure! To fully avoid any upset on either the Judges or the Entrants part is to display a model so it shows all the parts you want judged. Be it mirrors, stands, rotisserie or combination there-of. Not having even judges touch models is the only solution to the possibility of damage to a model.

The Mirror Mr. Yost has his models displayed on in his You Tube videos and his website (which is quite inspirational) would be the perfect size - add some risers to one side or both and the viewer can view the car at all angles. then the judge can turn the mirror carefully or just move around the model as it sits on the table.

I can see that overlarge displays - while very eye grabbing - can also take up too much room on the display tables. Governing this would be impossible - we have to be self policing.

Mr. Karmodeler2 - I have never and will never smoke anything - EVER. That is something I'm passionate about. Also - intentionally destroying a model at a show is sick - I was implying the risks we all face in our daily lives - from getting up in the morning - driving to and from work and doing our daily tasks - they all involve risk. When we take models to shows - it involves risk to the models - that is all. I was not implying intentional damage.

If I had 1500 hours in a model - I'd be really pissed if someone damaged it. I would have to remove myself from the area to calm down - I'm afraid that immediate interaction with the perp would get our of hand right quick.

I do not condone at ANY time that a spectator should touch a model at a contest or show - EVER-EVER!!!!!

I thank you all for your input and contributions to this thread.

#59 LoneWolf15

LoneWolf15

    MCM Ohana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,304 posts
  • Location:Pittsburgh Pa.

Posted 17 January 2010 - 04:37 PM

Me , David , Me! :D

This goes along with the adage..... Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water, someone slaps porkchop panties on you and shoves you in the shark tank !

Besides , if the Griz is wearing panties , I think I could take him , the big sissy ! ;) Putting a scratch in the paint work of one of Harry's Poccher builds would lead to very dire consequences for the offender. I'd rather tackle the bear in the phone booth , thank you very much !

When it comes to the show tables , the Georgia Satellites said it best...... "Don't hand me no lines and keep your hands to yourself "

Donn Yost

#60 seeker589

seeker589

    MCM Avid Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 497 posts
  • Location:Lancaster, PA

Posted 17 January 2010 - 04:42 PM

Donn,
would that be you wearing the panties or the bear?......I'm confused!!!! :D


I can see the Grizzly bear fashion show now -

Donn Yost is looking dashing in this years new fashion sensation - the Pork Chop Panties - Available at Victoria's Secret in the meat-britches section. Oh and what do we have here?! A very muscular and tall Grizzly bear chasing Donn down the catwalk wearing a Chicken Breast Bustier with matching thong. He's eying up Donn in those panties!

Oh, Gawd!
Now you guys have my imagination thinking of homosexual Grizzly bears in thongs! I need therapy! ;)