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Walk, then Run


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#21 ra7c7er

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 08:56 PM

Coming from a new modeler. I understand whole heartedly what you are saying. Sometimes it's hard not to try and do what many of you guys do. Those wild customs look amazing and I would love to try and copy them but I know it would only lead to frustration and failure. About the only custom thing I do right now is different wheels and maybe an engine swap but only if it is an easy fit and I can find wheels and tires that easily fit the model.

Edited by ra7c7er, 24 May 2011 - 09:57 PM.


#22 Danno

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 09:42 PM

Well said, well thought out, Rob ... Donn ... Mike.


Edited by Danno, 24 May 2011 - 09:44 PM.


#23 diymirage

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 11:28 PM

Rob,


Example .... Someone asks about which airbrush they should purchase . Answer .... Buy an Iwata ! Really ? A dual action , top of the line airbrush , coming out of the gate for a beginner ? No way ! Too much potential for frustration and failure ,along with a very large learning curve !





if im not mistaking my awnser to this question was a 15 dollar home depot brush...the same one i used when i got back in the hobby and for the very reasons you mentioned here
plus, the investment is very duable for even a young kid
(ill send it over next time someone inquires)

#24 mikemodeler

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 01:31 AM

Thanks for starting this topic as it rings true for ALL of us modelers. As someone who resisted using BMF for years, I used Lady Trial and Error on a couple of cars before I tackled a 57 Chevy, something that I needed to build confidence in before trying.

I find myself today frustrated with some of my builds even though I have been building on and off since 1972. There are days when gluing two engine blocks can take forever but that mirror like paint job is a snap!


I do hope that anyone who is in this hobby takes this topic to heart, young or old, and realizes that we all had to learn how to do the many tasks involved in building a model.

#25 MrObsessive

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 02:11 AM

Rob, I couldn't have said it better myself! I've been building over 30 years (started at 17 in 1978) and back then there was no internet, and model magazines for me (namely SAE) would not cross my path for at least 10 years after I got started.

My Dad was like yours-----------A lot of "That's nice Bill" or "Hey that's neat!", but looking back I had glue spots galore, smudged paint, badly fitting parts, you name it!

It wasn't until I got magazines such as Scale Auto Enthusiast and some others that I knew I could do MUCH better than what I was doing. It was actually a hobby shop owner who said to me (nicely) where I could do better. Of course, a lot of what I had to learn came through trial and error, but that's how we learn. Not by asking a thousand and one questions---------a lot of times just jumping in and doing it.

I didn't start superdetailing until the early '90's when I was in my early 30's and even then I was rough, I just kept at it, still keeping the basics in mind...........super clean paint, with no glue smudges or mold lines. B)

You're right about keeping the basics in check-----I can't tell you how many models I've rejected off hand when I was a judge because while the model had all the bells and whistles as far as PE parts, opening doors, and whatnot-------the model as a whole looked bad because of orange peel paint, poorly fitting doors, HUGE gaps in said opening panels and obvious mold lines/sink marks.

No one's perfect and there's no perfect model........but getting the basics right will go a long way in getting everyone's attention (in a good way!) :P


#26 Boreham

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 02:30 AM

;)
Rob thanks for your wisdom on this..
It's great to see (all the )experienced modellers acknowledging the plight of the unexperienced modellers view the WIP's and fully built models.
Speaking from an unexperienced view ,
You've nailed the frustration that is present for Beginners or Newly return to
the hobby ,seeing """hyper""" detailed builds on here ,which in some cases are ""nuts""..not just literally , setting a standard that is only for the few.

not to mention the criticisum of some of these ..much to my bewilderment..(maybe it shouldn't taken it to heart... but it's demoralising to read for a newbie..)
I look at the engine bay of my AMT 66 Mustang..and think...it missing inner fenders..and what about the plumbing..not to mention them horrid metal axles... :P so tempted to glue that hood shut!!
I've gotta do loads to get this looking right....not to mention paint the body a 3rd time... B)

I look at the tutorials and appreciate those who take the time and effort to provide this..
Maybe a bit of order in the tips and Tutorials would be beneficial..
with pinned topics...and or sub area’s ...possibly discussed or written by the more experienced guys ..to avoid the same questions coming up every 3 weeks..

<<<<<Basics>>>>>
Dry fitting (Sub assemblies, engine, interior, chassis and stance,)
Paint (prep , primer, Paint, Polish) with sub sections on each for trouble shooting)
Assembly (final assembly of sub assemblies ,gluing in clear items )



Oh by the way thanks for the inspiration

Edited by Boreham, 25 May 2011 - 02:35 AM.


#27 Foxer

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 03:07 AM

I think I'm just way too hard on myself as I can see when some trim I hand painted went off the line and , sometimes, I'll fix it. :P My parents always gave good comments when I was young, but I knew exactly what I did despite having no magazines or fellow modelers to compare to. My local hobby shop finally had a contest when I was 16 in 1962 and I got to see what was possible .... my splotched candy paint didn't compare to what I saw there, but I DID know it looked bad before that.

It's good when people offer their guidance and experience here and I hope that never changes. Not everyone uses their language skills to make it sound helpful so we must remember most ARE trying to help. B)

#28 SuperStockAndy

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 04:34 AM

I agree Rob.

My dad also got me into building. He told me that when I was a little kid I destroyed his USA-1 monster truck.... B)

Luckily though, he DOES tell me if I've done something wrong, so I can fix it and make it right.


Andy :)

#29 Scale-Master

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 06:01 AM

I have been watching this since last night... I see a lot of good advice being offered.
As one who has offered advice to others, I have to admit to sometimes being a bit gun shy about doing so from being admonished for daring to constructively point out flaws in other people's builds.
It does no real good to praise poor work, yet it happens all too often.

How is one supposed to become a better builder when he is told what he is making is already good?
What incentive is there if you are falsely told you are doing great?
How many of us have seen a gushfest of praise for a model we clearly can see and know is sloppy?

It may just be an innocent case of one builder's standards being lower, so he offers a complimentary post, or maybe he's buddies with that builder and is offering polite atta-boys.
But another builder with higher standards may see the flaws and point them out constructively, and I have seen that person get jumped on for trying to help.
The travesty is when the one trying to honestly point out the flaws and offer advice on how to improve is chastised (incorrectly) for putting down the builder or the model. That is just not constructive all around, and hinders the free exchange of good ideas and the possible improvement of some builders, new and seasoned.

I have noticed some builders do not want to build any model the way it comes out of the box. That is fine, part of the lure of this hobby is to build what you want, customizing. But if the grasp is beyond the reach of the builder, do others owe that builder honest advice as to how to achieve the desired results? Sometimes this constructive criticism is met with an attitude of "it is good enough for me" from the builder.
How are we to know if they are just putting it out there to show, or if they really want feedback? (Honesty or just ego stroking?)
Point being, all we can or should be is truthful. And we should be allowed to share our opinions without fear of being shouted down for them if someone else simply has a different viewpoint.

I have seen a nice trend of threads like these running their course without a lot of drama, this looks like another one that should benefit from that attitude.

#30 58 Impala

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 06:03 AM

I tend to be my own worst critic,I have been building models for around 47 years but I never rebuke any tips or constructive criticism. There are some tremendous builders out there, but no matter how good someone is there is always someone a little better. Rob you mentioned people should try and build box stock as clean as possible. As a matter of fact I was a judge at a local IPMS show last year (automotive class) and one of the nicest cleanest builds on the table was a Revell 48 Ford Woody Wagon and it had no aftermarket details at all. I was extremely impressed.

#31 Greg Myers

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 06:33 AM

Maybe using the "PM this Member" button a little more often would help. Putting the criticism right out there for everyone to see may be too harsh.:)

Edited by Greg Myers, 25 May 2011 - 06:34 AM.


#32 DRG

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 07:14 AM

I agree with Greg Meyers completely.
The other day Harry said something that I was compelled to remark about.
I sent him a PM and stated my thoughts, he explained his reason, I responded to that.
Very polite, very courteous. No flame war,no problems.


#33 Greg Myers

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 08:21 AM

I have a sudden urge to go to the "Under Glass" section and look at some models.:lol:

#34 Chuck Most

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 08:22 AM

Hand in hand with the 'tone' thing, some guys just need to be a little bit more careful in how they choose their words. I know I've posted a few things I've had to go back and edit, because I realized somewhere between hitting 'post reply' and reading the post later that "Wow... that could be misinterpreted... ;) ". I do see a few examples of that every so often, but the remark is either taken as it was intended, or the original poster clarifies the statement later on. Thankfully, out and out 'bashing' is exceptionally rare, but constructive criticism (emphasis on 'constructive' here) is plentiful, and for the most part, I think people are taking it as pointers on improving, not outright ridicule. And that is as it should be. :lol:

#35 Harry P.

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 08:24 AM

Often the person posting a model seems to get over-defensive unless comments are 100-percent positive, despite often posting "tell me what you think" or "comments welcome" along with the photos. I would say more than half of the dust-ups here start with that general road map: Someone says comments are invited, but quickly makes it clear that they really meant "compliments only." When that happens, the person making the comments is almost always singled out as the bad guy, even though the original post suggested honest reaction was encouraged.


I've said this many times before, but this seems like a good place to repeat it:

If you post photos of your work on a public forum, that work is fair game for any other member to comment on... positive or negative.

If you are the thin-skinned type or can't accept anything other than "attaboys" you shouldn't be posting photos of your work in the first place. To post photos, and then to get upset or "offended" if someone says something that doesn't meet your expectations, is unfair to all the other forum members.

#36 Steve Keck

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 08:45 AM

I’ve been following this discussion as well and I feel it is worth the trouble to log into the forum to comment.

I agree with Rob.

There have been comments here about contest building. I am not addressing that. If contests are your thing then mastering the basics will put you on the right path to trophies.

I lurk here all the time and I, too, read the atta’boys, ‘good job’ and ‘great paint’ where it doesn’t exist. To give false praise is an injustice at the least and an insult at most. I won’t do it. Many times I’ve seen the work and read the praise wondering if the praise-giver had his tongue in his cheek while typing. Sarcasm can be easily overlooked when disguised as praise. I hope that isn’t the case. If I do take the time to log on to comment it will be for praise earned or to offer constructive help, constructive criticism. If I can’t offer a solution or a way to a better result I don’t say anything.

I’m still learning new things here on the MCM Forum. I wish I new better how to prevent ghosting before Mark Taylor made it so simple and clear in his tutorial (which every one should read). I think a section for just tutorials separate from tips and techniques would be helpful.

#37 Terry Sumner

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 09:33 AM

Hand in hand with the 'tone' thing, some guys just need to be a little bit more careful in how they choose their words. I know I've posted a few things I've had to go back and edit, because I realized somewhere between hitting 'post reply' and reading the post later that "Wow... that could be misinterpreted... ;) ". I do see a few examples of that every so often, but the remark is either taken as it was intended, or the original poster clarifies the statement later on. Thankfully, out and out 'bashing' is exceptionally rare, but constructive criticism (emphasis on 'constructive' here) is plentiful, and for the most part, I think people are taking it as pointers on improving, not outright ridicule. And that is as it should be. :lol:

Boy Chuck you got that right! I reread my posts and change words constantly to try to avoid any misinterpretations. But sometimes no matter what you write someone will misinterpret. That's just the way it is when writing and not being eye-to-eye as others have already stated. It's just a fact of the internet world I guess...

#38 Danno

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 09:40 AM

I’ve been following this discussion as well and I feel it is worth the trouble to log into the forum to comment.

I agree with Rob.

There have been comments here about contest building. I am not addressing that. If contests are your thing then mastering the basics will put you on the right path to trophies.

I lurk here all the time and I, too, read the atta’boys, ‘good job’ and ‘great paint’ where it doesn’t exist. To give false praise is an injustice at the least and an insult at most. I won’t do it. Many times I’ve seen the work and read the praise wondering if the praise-giver had his tongue in his cheek while typing. Sarcasm can be easily overlooked when disguised as praise. I hope that isn’t the case. If I do take the time to log on to comment it will be for praise earned or to offer constructive help, constructive criticism. If I can’t offer a solution or a way to a better result I don’t say anything.

I’m still learning new things here on the MCM Forum. I wish I new better how to prevent ghosting before Mark Taylor made it so simple and clear in his tutorial (which every one should read). I think a section for just tutorials separate from tips and techniques would be helpful.




Good job! Great comment!


































;)

#39 Chuck Most

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 09:40 AM

I once told a resin caster in a PM, who was considering doing a kit already offered by another caster, to still consider it. The other caster's kit was poorly done, and I told the caster I was adressing he could do better. When I said "You could do better", I realized I should have added "than that other caster" to the end! So- another PM to explain what I meant. :lol: In that case, it turned out okay. He responded back by saying something to the effect of "Yeah, it's okay, I knew what you MEANT. ;) " But sometimes, the misunderstanding still happens.

#40 sjordan2

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 10:13 AM

I share the concerns mentioned here about the interpretation of comments. One of the worst parts is that one's constructive comments can get severely twisted out of shape. Once upon a time, not too long ago, I posted a thread wishing that people who started an "On the Workbench" thread would follow through on their projects, but many have never finished the builds they started, and eventually abandoned the thread. Frustrating to get into a thread that goes nowhere. So I commented that many of the best builders here managed to complete their projects and not leave us in suspense.

Yet, this was reinterpreted by another member (who is conspicuously absent these days) as saying I had called someone a "talentless hack," leading others to believe I had actually said that. But I never said or even implied such a thing, and I have never attacked the talents or quality of any builders here, either individually or as a group. If I have ever been harsh, it has been in response to trolls who have made very nasty, incendiary and insulting posts, and that's how past flame wars have gone on and on. My bad.

But I'm seeing a somewhat better response to constructive criticisms these days, regarding suggestions like a build could use some clear coat or a little masking would help trim paint look cleaner, re-think overscale wiring, etc. The builder responses I'm seeing lately appear more appreciative. So maybe it's getting easier to make constructive criticism. Do you think?

Edited by sjordan2, 25 May 2011 - 10:25 AM.