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#21 CadillacPat

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 05:52 AM

Thanks Harry, but the people who will WILL, and the people who won't WON"T

Just a quick note before crashing for a few hours, I'll come back later but I don't force my knowhow, I just put it out there for those who will use it.
I see a tad of negative speculation from a couple of guys but no substance of experience.
This is why I post pics, and tell how I make things, because, I ACTUALLY DO
I would like to see pictures (as I post) from these same people.

3 of my 80 cfm fans are are pushing 240 cfm at the base and back of the Booth, strong enough to leave piles of powdered paint on the outside patio.
AirBrushing sometimes 6hrs in an evening (taking breaks for the Compressor) and usually a couple of hrs every night for 13 yrs and I've yet to ignite the upper atmosphere.

I don't think some of the speculators are aware of the small Air/Petroleum product ratio emerging from the gun,
Nor have they taken into account that AirBrush or RattleCan passes are very short bursts,
Or the fact that a spark will not ignite these mixtures as they blow past,
Or, are all fans really prone to catching on fire as frequently as proposed by these few? Somebody tell Obama!!!!!!!!!!!
Many many things here to consider and 13 years proves this all for me and others that use my Table Top Paint Booths.

It's just like teaching school, you give them the information and some will learn and some will resist.
Some will take the info and run with it to their advantage.

In a $200 mail order paint booth you are getting about $50 of real value as the rest is in advertising and profit, so please consider that.
The Paint Booth company is not in business to do you a favor.
For my purposes doing as much as I do, I need the power of a strong Paint Booth that is easily maintained, not a toy made of plastic or thin metal.
Most people don't paint anywhere near as much as I do and a little lightweight Booth may be all they need.
I like to build my tools for the long term so they don't break down in the middle of a paying project.

There is no right or wrong here, I just have to have tools that operate very well., everybody else can do as they please.

I can't help being reminded here of the story with Henny Penny, Turkey Lurkey and Ducky Lucky, The Sky is not falling!!!!!!!!!!!

CadillacPat

#22 Geordi08

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 03:48 PM

The other thing to think about is the health part. If you get a spray both that vents back into the room your in, while the filters help, there is only so much they can do, so one that can be vented will be much better. Yes these can be built by yourself, but if 'worse case' it does explode, the insurance is probably not join going to cover any expensese. The odd are slim, but is it worth the money over the long haul. For those who made their own, and have had no problems, great, but that's not for everyone, I agree with mikemodeler in the long run its worth the price. Regardless of which brand, your lungs will thank you.

#23 mikemodeler

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:12 AM

The other thing to think about is the health part. If you get a spray both that vents back into the room your in, while the filters help, there is only so much they can do, so one that can be vented will be much better. Yes these can be built by yourself, but if 'worse case' it does explode, the insurance is probably not join going to cover any expensese. The odd are slim, but is it worth the money over the long haul. For those who made their own, and have had no problems, great, but that's not for everyone, I agree with mikemodeler in the long run its worth the price. Regardless of which brand, your lungs will thank you.


Not mentioned in these posts but alluded to above is the venting of the booth, which is important. It is also necessary to wear the proper respirator so you can protect your lungs and be around for a long time! Regardless of how well your booth vents, protecting your lungs with a dual stage respirator only makes sense. These can be picked up at big box home centers or auto parts stores for $20 or less, so it is cheap insurance for your health.

I am sure there are some who feel that wearing a respirator is overkill considering the amount of paint fumes created by modeling compared to painting a 1:1 car but the toxins are still there and hazardous nonetheless.

#24 Yahshu

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:45 AM

I built my own, some old scrap steel & ducting from work, a microwave fan wired up by a sparky, bought a small floro light, put it all together, works great, total cost $10 for the light & a 6 pack for the sparky.
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Posted 12 April 2012 - 03:44 AM

i ruled out bathroom fans becaues most nearly all are not vapor proof..it needs to be right ..your playing with a 1/2 stick of dynamite more or less..if i had 200.00 ided buy new

#26 RobRus

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 05:06 AM

Hey guys, I was a 1:1 car painter for about 20 years and have used everything from a house fan in the wall to a water filtered, downdraft spray-bake booth and I have seen a few spray booth fires in my time.

The thing you have to worry about is not the fumes but the paint dust collecting in the booth, fan and ductwork. A very small spark will turn your booth into a fire that even a large fire extingusiher will not put out. What you end up with is a jet like ignition with the air feeding the flame. I witnessed one massive fire in the exhaust system of a booth that would hold 2 semi truck tractors end to end. We dumped about 8 large fire extinguishers into the exhaust and still couldn't get it out. The fan motors finally burned out and the whole booth went up in flames. By the time the fire department got there one wall and the roof were fully engulfed.

I have seen 3 booth fires and one of them was a $15,000 DeVilbiss booth so home made or commercial makes no difference if you do not clean out the overspray dust. Any spark (not just from the fan motor) will set paint dust into a blazing inferno.

Trust me, this is a very scary thing to be around and you do not want to have one in your house, it isn't just a little fire that you can put out easily so do yourself a favor and take the time to clean your booth on a regular basis and don't be lax about it.

I have worked in a lot of different booths and some of the best ones I have used were nothing more than a cement block room with a fan in the wall. Although the downdraft, water filtered spray bake booth was by far the best I have ever used. The water filter literally extracts any dust that would normally go through the ductwork and fan so there is no need to have to clean out the dust.

So it isn't the fan motor or the fumes you have to worry about or wether you buy an expensive booth or make it yourself, it is how clean you keep it that is a direct relation to having a fire.

One word of warning... If you do have a fire do NOT shut off your fan, try to get it under control while the fan is still sucking the fire out of your house. If you shut the fan off the fire will be inside your house.

And, Always use metal ductwork, anything else will burn through and start your room on fire.

Seriously, you do not want to find out how scary a booth fire really is.

Take the time and watch this video segment on 60 Minutes.

http://video.search....web&n=21&tnr=21

#27 Art Anderson

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 06:55 AM

Hey guys, I was a 1:1 car painter for about 20 years and have used everything from a house fan in the wall to a water filtered, downdraft spray-bake booth and I have seen a few spray booth fires in my time.

The thing you have to worry about is not the fumes but the paint dust collecting in the booth, fan and ductwork. A very small spark will turn your booth into a fire that even a large fire extingusiher will not put out. What you end up with is a jet like ignition with the air feeding the flame. I witnessed one massive fire in the exhaust system of a booth that would hold 2 semi truck tractors end to end. We dumped about 8 large fire extinguishers into the exhaust and still couldn't get it out. The fan motors finally burned out and the whole booth went up in flames. By the time the fire department got there one wall and the roof were fully engulfed.

I have seen 3 booth fires and one of them was a $15,000 DeVilbiss booth so home made or commercial makes no difference if you do not clean out the overspray dust. Any spark (not just from the fan motor) will set paint dust into a blazing inferno.

Trust me, this is a very scary thing to be around and you do not want to have one in your house, it isn't just a little fire that you can put out easily so do yourself a favor and take the time to clean your booth on a regular basis and don't be lax about it.

I have worked in a lot of different booths and some of the best ones I have used were nothing more than a cement block room with a fan in the wall. Although the downdraft, water filtered spray bake booth was by far the best I have ever used. The water filter literally extracts any dust that would normally go through the ductwork and fan so there is no need to have to clean out the dust.

So it isn't the fan motor or the fumes you have to worry about or wether you buy an expensive booth or make it yourself, it is how clean you keep it that is a direct relation to having a fire.

One word of warning... If you do have a fire do NOT shut off your fan, try to get it under control while the fan is still sucking the fire out of your house. If you shut the fan off the fire will be inside your house.

And, Always use metal ductwork, anything else will burn through and start your room on fire.

Seriously, you do not want to find out how scary a booth fire really is.

Take the time and watch this video segment on 60 Minutes.

http://video.search....web&n=21&tnr=21


In all honesty, while I know that many modelers are on a budget (as am I!), why invite trouble? A spray booth should be a "one time buy/build", so why not invest the $$, get it right from the get-go? Squirrel cage blowers are readily available, in sizes small enough to do the job if you want to build your own booth, but if you lack either the space, or the time & skills to build one, it really makes sense to bite the bullet, buy a top quality ready-made booth!

For my money, the $$ I spent on my Pace Peacemaker has been very well worth it: Mr Pace is a professional sheet-metal fabricator--Pace spray booths are made from galvanized 20-gauge sheet steel. He uses only first quality squirrel cage blowers, which put the motor OUTSIDE of the air stream, so even the sealed motor never sees the overspray from airbrush or rattle can; and the booth uses a commonly available rippled paper filter (Walmart for one, carries this exact filter year-round!), and it's set up to use a commonly available 4" clothes dryer vent system. If you have a window nearby, just make a "plug" to fit in the window (my apartment has sash windows, so I bought a particle board shelf at Home Depot for like $10, shortened it to fit the window frame, bought a hole cutter to make the round hole in it to install the dryer vent outlet--I will hang on to the hole cutter, as eventually, I will have to make another window plug!). The filters for this booth run perhaps $7-$8 for a replacement.

In the bargain here: I get to paint indoors, 12-months out of the year; absolutely NO paint smell in my apartment (and I live in an apartment in an older house, which has a single central heat and air conditioning--I can tell what my neighbors are fixing for dinner!), and NOT a bit of paint overspray to gunk things up as well.

Yeah, it wasn't cheap to buy, but if I use the thing for just 10 years, my cost per year for it will be about $30 a year, and that's not at all bad! Oh, and did I mention that the thing is whipsper quiet? (The old Biddy directly below me, when asked, declared she never hears it, nor does she smell it, and SHE complains about EVERYTHING!)

But the bottom line here is safety-- Fire is a very present hazard whenever one sprays any flammable paint (look at your aerosol cans of paint, even your shaving cream) the propellent more than likely is butane, the same stuff as in a Bic cigarette lighter--so safety should be a top priority--model car kits, your home and its contents, and YOU yourself--none of that looks very good as charcoal!

Art

#28 Art Anderson

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 06:58 AM

Not mentioned in these posts but alluded to above is the venting of the booth, which is important. It is also necessary to wear the proper respirator so you can protect your lungs and be around for a long time! Regardless of how well your booth vents, protecting your lungs with a dual stage respirator only makes sense. These can be picked up at big box home centers or auto parts stores for $20 or less, so it is cheap insurance for your health.

I am sure there are some who feel that wearing a respirator is overkill considering the amount of paint fumes created by modeling compared to painting a 1:1 car but the toxins are still there and hazardous nonetheless.


Mike, I understand your concerns, but with a proper spray booth, vented out of doors, you should NEVER even smell a hint of the vapors, and of course, a proper booth will have a filter to capture the particulates (overspray). Now, if I never see any particulates, and if I NEVER smell more than just a hint of the solvents, then it seems to me that a mask is just overkill. If it ain't in the air where I am, it ain't gonna bother me, not now, not ever.

Art

#29 RobRus

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 08:52 AM

Art, I would respectfully disagree. You may not think you need one because you can't smell the paint but again, the dry dust is just as harmfull as the vapor. I very rarely did anything without at least a good particle mask. For the cheap cost of disposable masks it should be the first thing you do when you work with paint dust and overspray.

The way I see it, the cost of a box of masks is worth the peace of mind I get (and the fact that I am almost 60 years old and can still ride my mountan bike 30 miles without stopping).

But then again a lot of the painters I worked with took your point of view and I am sure most of them never had any breathing problems.

#30 Art Anderson

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:00 AM

Art, I would respectfully disagree. You may not think you need one because you can't smell the paint but again, the dry dust is just as harmfull as the vapor. I very rarely did anything without at least a good particle mask. For the cheap cost of disposable masks it should be the first thing you do when you work with paint dust and overspray.

The way I see it, the cost of a box of masks is worth the peace of mind I get (and the fact that I am almost 60 years old and can still ride my mountan bike 30 miles without stopping).

But then again a lot of the painters I worked with took your point of view and I am sure most of them never had any breathing problems.


Rob,

In case you missed what I wrote: I get NO overspray dust whatsoever in the room, PERIOD! All the overspray gets captured by the air filter, PERIOD.

And, BTW, I am almost 68, and my mountain bike is on track for more than 13,000 miles this year so far.

Art

#31 crazyjim

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:06 PM

Great exchange of info happening here. I'll stick with my Pace unit.

I don't have any kind of bicycle but could easily do at least 50 miles - as long as it's all downhill. :D

#32 CadillacPat

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:29 PM

Absolutely amazing,
Art, you are telling people there is no reason to wear a Respirator and,
Rob, You are giving reports on how you blew up two 18 wheelers in your paint booth.
Did yall forget we are talking about AirBrushing Models????????????????????

I can't read any more of this.
I am glad to see some of you guys taking the bull by the horns and designing and building your own Paint Booths,
Beyond that the scare tactics I see being posted are ridiculous and unfounded
.
I thought there would be a huge interest here in AirBrushing because on many of the AirBrush sites I go to there is an interest in building Models.
This discussion is not on Paint Booths big enough to drive two 18 wheelers into nor are we discussing the type of equipment needed to paint them.

I've posted the information I have from experience, take it or leave it, your choice.

Please, no more scare tactics or off subject rants.

"The facts Mam, just the facts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!", (Joe Friday)

CadillacPat

#33 RobRus

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:39 PM

Sorry the discussion doesn't conform to what you started the thread for.

This is the second time I have been put down on this forum and I only have 27 posts. I am not giving mis-infomation and I can tell you from experience, fire is nothing to take lightly.

I do not make things up and what I posted in my above post really did happen.. You can beileve it or not.


I get it guys... only the "old timers" can post here.


I will find another more friendly forum to visit.


See ya.
Bob


P.S. To the moderators. You can delete my ID here I don't feel very welcome.

Edited by RobRus, 12 April 2012 - 01:48 PM.


#34 RobRus

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 01:51 AM

First. @ Cadillac Pat, I was mistaken that you started this thread about spray booths when in fact it was geordie.

I do know a lot about the subject so I do have valuable info to give. He wanted a discussion about spray booths and this is exactly what he got. You may not like the fact that other people are safety conscious (which clearly you are not) but that is part of the topic that geordie started. The reason you make or buy a spray booth is to control the overspray so you don't breath it in, that is what the other part of this discussion is about. All important info about spray booths.

You said:

Rob, You are giving reports on how you blew up two 18 wheelers in your paint booth.
Did yall forget we are talking about AirBrushing Models????????????????????


NO I did not say that. You should re-read what I said. I didn't blow up anything. We had a ductwork fire in our booth that was big enough to put two tractors end to end... (not the trailers and there was nothing in the booth thank god). The fire was caused by a body man flicking his ash from a cigarette into the ductwork and igniting the dust.

My whole point of passing that info on was because it isn't the vapor that will cause a fire.

IT IS THE DUST!!! Clearly something you don't have a clue about since your booth is so dirty I am surprised you have not already burned your house down. The size of the booth makes no difference, if you have a fire it will burn and burn very fast. And it only takes one little spark.

No one has ever said "Oh yea, my house burned to the ground.... but it was only a small fire.

This information IS relevant to the topic whether you like it or not.

Just because you have been using your booth for 15 years and not had a fire does not mean that everyone should forget about safety.

Either breathing in the dust or setting it ablaze it is all about what a spray booth is about.

So nothing here was "Off topic" as you tried to point out.

Maybe you are upset because everyone didn't say "Wow... that Cadillac Pat is a really smart guy and if he is not worried about safety then no one else should be...

That is a really bad advice to give anyone. Safety should be the very first thing someone thinks about when installing or building a spray booth.

Notice I am not taking sides on home made or purchased booths, both can be very good, and both are subject to dust buildup which will burn.

After a number of PM's from some nice guys on this forum I am not going to leave. I won't let a few jerks drive me away.

I am not trying to cause a fight with you but if you take that attitude with people, there are some of us that can give it back and this is one argument you can not win... How can you tell people not to think about safety?

Yea... maybe you should take your own advice.... Just the Facts Man....

Edited by RobRus, 13 April 2012 - 01:53 AM.


#35 JunkPile

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 04:07 AM

Play nice kids!

#36 Guest_Johnny_*

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 04:26 AM

This a topic that has be discussed at length here many many times and it always ends the same.
There are two extremes and we have seen both ends of the spectrum and the answer is somewhere in the middle.
There are over reactions that go to the extreme, and I have to say that I always was told you can never be too safe.
On the other hand I have also been told not to give into to extreme over reaction.
All very good points of view have been posted and a person has to do no more than look them over and apply a little common sense!
No reason for anyone to get mad. Just differing points of view like we all have on anything that may be discussed.

#37 CadillacPat

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 05:21 AM

Okay Rob,
So your whole "story" is nothing based on your own paint experience, it is based on a story you heard of some guy who threw lit cigarettes into ductwork.
Why are your fellow employees walking around throwing lit digarettes wherever they like?????
If you deliberately set the Booth on fire then OF COURSE it will burn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have to tell you, having a hissy fit and threatening to quit (then coming back to rail even more) does not add any credibility to your tale of total destruction.

When you came back with your name calling that told me all I need to know about your true experience with this subject.

Take a break, relax, light up another cigarette.

CadillacPat

#38 MrObsessive

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 05:23 AM

This thread is about to hit the cyber byte bucket................... :rolleyes:

#39 Jantrix

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 05:44 AM

Yeah Bill is right. Rob you need to lighten up a bit here. Safety is important but getting all worked up isn't helping.

Lets just whittle this down to a simple sentence that Rob is trying to convey.

"The overspray dust build-up in an exhaust duct can be flamable as well as the fumes."

Good advice. Noted. Lets move on shall we?

Edited by Jantrix, 13 April 2012 - 05:44 AM.


#40 RobRus

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 06:53 AM

Pat, I guess you really can't read... And I didn't call you a name did I? If you mean the Jerk reference, that isn't anything that has not been proven out in this thread.

I am not going to wast another keystroke on someone like you.

@ Jantrix,

You are exactly correct, I do need to lighten up, I just closed my own 3d modeling forum down becasue of guys like this Cadillac Pat. I came back into plasitc modeling after 12 years only to find more of the same here. I guess you just can't get away from them...

I apologise for showing my frustration I usually keep it in check but some times.....

And yes. I was explaining from experience what spray booth dust will do and that it is actually much more dangerous than the fumes as far as igniting a fire.

I actually am on the side of building your own. My booth is home built and it works pretty well. The main trick in creating a good booth is not to have to little or too much airflow. Too little and you will smell it and too much and you will see it in your paint jobs.

I would suggest you do a search on the internet for designing your own booth. There are a lot of ideas and good info out there along with the formula to calculate the CFM for the size of area you are working with.

A good nights sleep and a fresh outlook is all I needed.

Cheers,
Bob