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#21 Harry P.

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:27 PM

I don't remember the specifics, but weren't there several cases (at least) of a built-up box art model (a photo of what was supposedly in the box) that included parts (like custom wheels) that were not in the box? Wouldn't a photo of the parts trees on the side of the box have shown the buyer exactly how many sets of wheels were actually in the box? Or whether there was a "custom" intake setup included? Or custom seats? Or whatever? I don't see why you would argue against showing a buyer what he's buying!

Maybe "back in the day," when 95% of model car kit buyers were little kids, a slightly, uh, "interpretive" illustration or misleading build was perfectly fine on the box... maybe it even helped sell a few kits. But with the bulk of the hobby now comprised of adults, and the days of the $2 model kit long gone, I don't think showing a buyer what he's actually buying with his $25 bucks (or more) is too much to ask. I'm not saying do away with fanciful box art illustrations. I'm saying also include the "straight dope" somewhere on the box, too.

#22 midnightprowler

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 01:41 AM

A photo of the real car on top, model on the sides, parts trees on the bottom of the box, not shadow pics, actual pics.

#23 Art Anderson

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 06:57 AM

I don't remember the specifics, but weren't there several cases (at least) of a built-up box art model (a photo of what was supposedly in the box) that included parts (like custom wheels) that were not in the box? Wouldn't a photo of the parts trees on the side of the box have shown the buyer exactly how many sets of wheels were actually in the box? Or whether there was a "custom" intake setup included? Or custom seats? Or whatever? I don't see why you would argue against showing a buyer what he's buying!

Maybe "back in the day," when 95% of model car kit buyers were little kids, a slightly, uh, "interpretive" illustration or misleading build was perfectly fine on the box... maybe it even helped sell a few kits. But with the bulk of the hobby now comprised of adults, and the days of the $2 model kit long gone, I don't think showing a buyer what he's actually buying with his $25 bucks (or more) is too much to ask. I'm not saying do away with fanciful box art illustrations. I'm saying also include the "straight dope" somewhere on the box, too.


Harry,

Bear in mind, if you will, that back in "....the days of the $2 model kit..." that two bucks was very much the equivalent of $20-$25 dollars today (1/25 scale model car kits back 50 years ago had an MSRP of $2.00--something us older guys surely do remember very well).

Frankly, would not detail photo's of a box art buildup, showing closeups of say, the completed engine bay, the interior, the chassis be far more informative? Seriously, if one thinks about it, photo's of the raw parts trees, when reduced to a size that fits on say, the sides of the common, standard sized model car kit box (thinking AMT, Revell, Moebius kit boxes here) would be so small, the details so tiny as to be more "busy" than truly informative. Consider also that 50 years ago, there were virtually NO legal notices printed on model car kit boxes. Fast forward to today: Every licensor will require some legal notice "used under license from" or (fill in the blank here) used under license from (again, fill in the blank), or such notices as "Jeep is a registered trademark of Chrysler Corporation"--not to mention the politically correct multilingual text virtually required nowadays. I'm looking at the excellent box art for the Revell Kurtis Midget as I write this.

The top and ends of the box have color pics of the Offenhauser powered midget, those show completed models, in the colors and markings offered on the decal sheet and called out in the painting instructions. One side of the box shows a finished midget (the same one that is on one end of the box), a closeup of the opened engine bay, a shot of the PE sheet of details, a shot of the two types of hitches provided for whichever type of tow vehicle, a pic of the main version of the midget shown on the boxtop ON the trailer which is part of the kit, and the remaining end of the box, and a drawing of a Revell 48 Ford station wagon with hitch and midget on the trailer included.

The other side panel of the kit box is all text: Features of the kit printed in English, Spanish and French which also includes a brief historical blurb about the Kurtis Midget, Next to that is another box of text, giving the colors of paint needed to paint the blue and white midget, again in three languages. Beneath that is text giving the required legal notice as to who produced the kit and denoting Revell's copyright claims to it; A very clear statement that the box "Contains ONE plastic model kit, in three languages, the UPC bar code, and the legally required "country of origin" also in three languages. On the bottom of the box are more legal notices, in three languages, and explanation of Revell's "Skill Level System" again in three languages, a very important legal disclaimer warning about small parts being a choking hazard (very important to have that, as I am sure any lawyer would state!). Also there is a notice of copyright from Revell in Elk Grove Village IL, further notice to the consumer to "keep details for future reference (again in three languages), a statement of distribution in Europe through "Revell GmbH & Co KG and their address in Germany. Also printed there is a notice about where to obtain customer service, and one indicating Revell's website.

Now, all of that leaves virtually NO ROOM for any of the things you suggest--any photo's or artwork showing the parts trees would be so small as to be more confusing than informative, frankly.

The purpose of box art on a model car kit, jujst as with the artwork and text on any blister card or box for any product you and I see in retail stores is to get that product to shout out to you and me, "Take me to your home!", tempered of course with all manner of legally required or certainly recommended notices and disclaimers. As one who spent nearly 30 years either directly in, or certainly involved to some degree, in hobby retailing, this particular box art does a very good job of presenting the enclosed product accurately yet attractively, and gives clear notice in readable print that it is an unassembled model car kit. (by the way, the two builtup midgets pictured SHOW that there are two types of intake systems, twin carburetors AND Hilborn fuel injection, which takes care of depicting the options available inside the box.).

I don't see much more to ask than what this kit box shows, frankly.

Art

#24 Lunajammer

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 08:40 AM

Yes, and then there was this... "art."

Shows photo of actual finished model and still shows you almost nothing but laughable Photoshopping. (Someone out there got to say, "Hey, I did this!")

Posted Image

Box art is advertising and the first rule of effective advertising is it has to reach you at some emotional level. Does the real photo the Funnier Farmer model get you all jazzed to tear into the box and start gluing? What about the photo below? I'm all for showing the nuts and bolts of the kit on the side panels and bottom, but give us the fantasy of possibilities on the box top.

Posted Image

#25 HOLMES55

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 04:12 AM

Interesting, but I believe "urban legend".

Thanks Art for pointing this out, It seems the "Truth in packaging Law" was passed in 1966 By Lyndon B Johnson.
I noticed that there are some new releases that use Box art on the front of the box.
Polar lights recently released the 33 Willys Ohio George Gasser with this on the front
Attached File  polar lights.jpg   74.57KB   2 downloads

#26 jbwelda

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 10:31 AM

i doubt very much any "truth in packaging" or "truth in advertising" has anything to do with box art. ever been to McDonalds? how does that Big Mac hold up to the photo of it on the walls of the place? it doesnt, not at all. so i dont see how having a photo of a real car on the box would make one liable for any sort of consumer lawsuit based on truth in packaging especially if it is accompanied by a disclaimer that the photo is of a real car, or of a built up model for that matter, even if one did BMF the chrome on it. I think someone is dreaming here and as for all the lawyers in california just waiting to file some lawsuit, they wont if they wont win and in the case of model box art i would have to guess that the chances of winning some sort of lawsuit based on consumer protections would be about 1 in 100 and youre not going to find a lawyer to take that case on unless youre paying him up front regardless of outcome. lawyers just arent that stupid contrary to the opinions of some here.

#27 Craig Irwin

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 06:07 PM

It's only been ten or so years ago that AMT issued a 57 Chevy Hardtop model with a Sedan on the box art, I know a couple of guys that were pretty upset with that one!

#28 Art Anderson

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 07:30 PM

It's only been ten or so years ago that AMT issued a 57 Chevy Hardtop model with a Sedan on the box art, I know a couple of guys that were pretty upset with that one!


More than a couple Craig! A lot of us called AMT Ertl in person on that one. In July 2004, I found out why that happened:: RC2, then the owner of the AMT brand and tooling, put product development into the hands of a lady (trust me, Mary tried, and she was cool!) who had absolutely no clue as to cars! This is a perfect example of what happens when corporate management comes into ownership of a company about which they neither know nothing about, nor do they care--if they even know enough to care! Don't press me further for my opinion--I don't relish being banned from these forums!

#29 Monty

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 08:16 PM

I don't remember the specifics, but weren't there several cases (at least) of a built-up box art model (a photo of what was supposedly in the box) that included parts (like custom wheels) that were not in the box? Wouldn't a photo of the parts trees on the side of the box have shown the buyer exactly how many sets of wheels were actually in the box? Or whether there was a "custom" intake setup included? Or custom seats? Or whatever? I don't see why you would argue against showing a buyer what he's buying!


Here's the most recent example that I can think of.
Posted Image

This model cannot be built as depicted on the box art by using only what you find in the kit. I bought one, naively assuming that it would have MPC's Cragar SS wheels and that the decal sheet would have two or three different colors of stock Mopar stripes (black & white, possibly red). There are no Cragar SS wheels and no stock Mopar stripes. The kit did have some nice Centerline-type wheels, but the decal sheet was mostly made up of ugly blue & green custom/street striping.

Assuming someone like Keith Marks even made correct GTX decals, they'd probably cost at least $10.00 plus shipping, so I wasn't terribly happy with AMT/Round2/whoever.

Edited by Monty, 01 October 2012 - 08:17 PM.


#30 Rob Hall

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:01 PM

A couple others AMT goofed about 10 years ago IIRC was a reissue of the '76 Nova street machine that showed a stock Nova on the box and a '69 Charger Daytona--both showed builds on the boxes w/ wheels that weren't included in the kit.

#31 Longbox55

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:13 PM

In the case of the Nova, the ENTIRE KIT was different!

#32 Dragline

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:43 PM

Monogram showed their kits for many years. it's why I bought a great many of them



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#33 Art Anderson

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:07 AM

Interesting, but I believe "urban legend".

Thanks Art for pointing this out, It seems the "Truth in packaging Law" was passed in 1966 By Lyndon B Johnson.
I noticed that there are some new releases that use Box art on the front of the box.
Polar lights recently released the 33 Willys Ohio George Gasser with this on the front
Attached File  polar lights.jpg   74.57KB   2 downloads


OK, on the premise that a Federal law was passed, and signed by Lyndon Johnson in 1966, it STILL took another 10 years for model companies to embrace the idea of putting pictures of a built example of the enclosed kit on the boxtop. As has been pointed out in several posts in this topic, most of the Japanese manufacturers stayed with box art illustrations, ranging from simple, to the almost iconic Tamiya box art paintings. I don't seem to recall any complaints made audibly about either that, or the switch to photographs.

I would submit, that any lawyer looking into virtually any model car kit produced today, would be hard-pressed to find any discrepancy between the boxtop and the contents inside, unless the kit in question was an Xmobile instead of the advertised Ytireburner. As long as an illustration shows the content of the kit box correctly, and does not show a feature or features that cannot be built from the kit inside--then I rather doubt any lawyer would even take up a case alleging fraud.

As an interesting sidelight: Who among us complains if we open up a newly reissued AMT kit from out of the prehistoric past, only to find a number of parts "re-included" when sections of sprue were un-gated? Of course, with any old tool suddenly reissued, there can be errors made--most of them I've seen were tires that didn't fit, although a few instances of kits having completely wrong chrome trees in them, but even those have been rather rare--and when called on the error, the manufacturer has diligently tried to rectify the situation.

There is a lengthy Wikipedia on the "Truth In Advertising" issue--well worth reading.

Art

#34 Art Anderson

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:34 AM

A couple others AMT goofed about 10 years ago IIRC was a reissue of the '76 Nova street machine that showed a stock Nova on the box and a '69 Charger Daytona--both showed builds on the boxes w/ wheels that weren't included in the kit.


Rob, and yes...

Those were glaring errors on the part of not only the folks at Racing Champions-Ertl in Dyersville IA, but also a serious lack of management expertise and oversight at RC2's headquarters in Oak Brook IL!

Racing Champions, when they bought out Ertl, which included the AMT kit line, let go way too many people who truly knew and understood what was in all that AMT and MPC tooling, replacing them with lower level folks (albeit very good people!) who had little if any understanding of just what was in all that tooling (nearly 3000 different tools by their own claims. In 2005, after RC2 had laid me, along with all but 4 of the staff of Playing Mantis, I was offered a small retainer to help AMT/Ertl come up with reissue assortments, not a one that came to fruition due to their lack of even basic knowledge (the product manager at that time was a very nice lade, whose expertise was in their doll and action figure line (go figure that one out!!!). They supplied me with complete tool lists, but they had no idea where those tools were, what condition they were in, so on and so forth.

It's little wonder that glaring errors in packaging VS the product inside happened--it truly was a case of the "blind leading the blind", and I dropped out of that after 2006, just not interested in dealing with that sort of indifference. It was even worse at RC2's Chinese manufacturing campus--those people simply would not listen. Communication (VERY essential when dealing across cultural and language barriers, especially with the ill-informed folks in Dyersville) is essential if anything is to get done. Little wonder that Learning Curve (which is what RC2 is known as today) were probably more than happy to wash their hands of all that tooling, which is now owned by the former owner and founder of Playing Mantis, Tom Lowe, founder of Round2.

This is not to attempt to address inaccurately mocked up and tooled models--every model company that has ever existed has had their share of those over time. Dave Metzner at Moebius took a pretty big risk, for example, in posting up pics of the tooling mockups of the first of the Hudsons and the '55 Chrysler C300. The comments of course came quick, thick and fast--but everyone on this set of forums has seen the ultimate result--both cars came out looking pretty darned good, if you ask me! And in the bargain, the box art does not misrepresent any of the three car kits (or for that matter, the International Lonestar) one bit--what you see on the boxtop is what you get in the box. Sure, little effort was given to show all the pieces, but for the reasons I mentioned earlier--a box art showing all those parts, along with renderings of the real thing or photo's of the built up model would have been so "busy" as to perhaps make those kits a much harder sell than they needed to be.

Art

#35 sjordan2

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:22 AM

This week I received an older Testors/Italeri kit of a Mercedes 540K (recently shown in under glass by Erik Olijnsma - The Creative Explorer), which has one of the best solutions I've seen:

There is an outer box with a large beauty shot of the built kit on top, plus many built detail shots on the sides and bottom, all in color. The box opens at an end flap, and you pull out an interior box with the kit contents.

#36 Art Anderson

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:31 PM

This week I received an older Testors/Italeri kit of a Mercedes 540K (recently shown in under glass by Erik Olijnsma - The Creative Explorer), which has one of the best solutions I've seen:

There is an outer box with a large beauty shot of the built kit on top, plus many built detail shots on the sides and bottom, all in color. The box opens at an end flap, and you pull out an interior box with the kit contents.


Of course, Italeri kits come in much larger boxes than say, a standard AMT, Moebius or Revell kit. Bigger box, more room for information on it, but bigger boxes take up more space on hobby shop shelves, which can be a tradeoff.

Art

#37 sjordan2

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 04:06 AM

Of course, Italeri kits come in much larger boxes than say, a standard AMT, Moebius or Revell kit. Bigger box, more room for information on it, but bigger boxes take up more space on hobby shop shelves, which can be a tradeoff.

Art


The same packaging concept could be applied to any size box (and is used by thousands upon thousands of products). The idea is that using all of the outer part of the box provides a larger canvas for more color pictures of what's in the box and how you can build it.

This is accomplished in one run through the press on one side of the box. Box assembly might add a small cost, but this is so common that I don't think it would be a big deal. If cereal boxes can be printed this way, so can model kits, which are going to have a 2-part box anyway. I'm sure many other model kits have already been done this way.

But, then again...maybe some kit companies DON'T want you to have that much information on the box.

Edited by sjordan2, 04 October 2012 - 05:21 AM.


#38 moparmagiclives

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 04:27 AM

I got an email from revell, I'm betting the foose cars will look nothing like his drawings.

#39 Longbox55

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:02 AM

I got an email from revell, I'm betting the foose cars will look nothing like his drawings.

That's ok, the real car doesn't look like the drawing either! :lol:

#40 Harry P.

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:12 AM

The same packaging concept could be applied to any size box (and is used by thousands upon thousands of products). The idea is that using all of the outer part of the box provides a larger canvas for more color pictures of what's in the box and how you can build it.

This is accomplished in one run through the press on one side of the box. Box assembly might add a small cost, but this is so common that I don't think it would be a big deal. If cereal boxes can be printed this way, so can model kits, which are going to have a 2-part box anyway. I'm sure many other model kits have already been done this way.

But, then again...maybe some kit companies DON'T want you to have that much information on the box.


Exactly! Every box top, no matter how big or how small, has 5 different panels where graphics can appear.