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1/25 Revell '70 Plymouth HEMI 'Cuda 2'n1


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#661 edward smith

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 03:33 AM

I think these images say a lot in reference to the lines between the real and model. To tell you the truth, this model looks more like a 68 Camaro than a 'Cuda. The model is from a good friend of mine.

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#662 Erik Smith

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 03:44 AM

I think these images say a lot in reference to the lines between the real and model. To tell you the truth, this model looks more like a 68 Camaro than a 'Cuda. The model is from a good friend of mine.

 

The picture of the model is distorted due to a short focal length and distance to the camera - see how the opposite side showing through the window and the front fender show up more?  So, not a great comparison.  

 

A member on the board did a pretty close overlay of the kit and a side view pic, and most of the contours are very close.  The front and rear are a little stubby (and that depends on which photo - one shows the front dead on, another a little short) and the roof slants a bit too much, but overall, from the front of the hood to the back of the trunk, it's very close.



#663 Brett Barrow

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 04:29 AM

The 1:1 photo is very close to orthographic, it's a very good reference shot taken from far away with a long lens, which lessens any camera distortion.  The model shot couldn't be worse, it's taken from up close with a very short lens which maximizes distortion.

 

 

To be honest, that 1:1 picture comes to closest of any I've seen so for to matching the shape of the model.  For a while I thought it was short in the overhangs and maybe a little thick through the middle vertically, but seeing that 1:1 shot makes me think they got closer than I thought at first. 


Edited by Brett Barrow, 17 January 2014 - 04:30 AM.


#664 Danno

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 05:20 AM

Agreed.  A lot of the distortion is in the eye of the beholder.  Kit looks pretty good!



#665 cotto

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 07:55 AM

I don't know guys, I took the liberty of posting the same pictures but using the Sublime Green images from the links and I definitely see big differences on the body. I think that the black in conjunction with the vinyl top on the black model kind of creates a better contrast and keeps the errors of the lines to a minimum. Bad picture or not, this body is not correct, there are still a lot of issues.

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#666 RodneyBad

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 08:43 PM

I don't know guys, I took the liberty of posting the same pictures but using the Sublime Green images from the links and I definitely see big differences on the body. I think that the black in conjunction with the vinyl top on the black model kind of creates a better contrast and keeps the errors of the lines to a minimum. Bad picture or not, this body is not correct, there are still a lot of issues.

Excellent photos..

Yup, Revell missed it..

Again..



#667 midnightprowler

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 11:46 PM

I disagree Jay and Rodney, looking at your pics, there are small diffrences, but not glaring ones.



#668 tim boyd

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 02:29 AM

I disagree Jay and Rodney, looking at your pics, there are small diffrences, but not glaring ones.

 Lee....thanks and I agree with you.  

 

The most important point here is that to do an entirely valid photo comparison, as several of you pointed out above, you need the same camera, the same lense and lense setting, and the same camera angle for both the 1/1/ and the 1/25th scale 'cudas.   The above photo comparisons lack this continuity and therefore are interesting, but do not provide the basis to draw a definitive conclusion. 

 

If and when someone does this exact camera/lense/angle comparison, the most likely conclusion will be that none of the models - the MPC, JoHan, or Revell - are 100% correct replicas of the 1/1 car, but all of them are reasonably close.  

 

Yes, the Revell body has some errors - most (but not all) of which have been pointed out in this thread of posts.  But for most of us, when any of these three scale 'cudas are done and setting on the shelf, they say "'70 'cuda" when you look and handle them.  (Well, the JoHan says '71, but you get my point).

 

Just weighing in here, "representing the opposition"...

 

Cheers....TIM


Edited by tim boyd, 18 January 2014 - 02:33 AM.


#669 Art Anderson

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 04:20 AM

 Lee....thanks and I agree with you.  

 

The most important point here is that to do an entirely valid photo comparison, as several of you pointed out above, you need the same camera, the same lense and lense setting, and the same camera angle for both the 1/1/ and the 1/25th scale 'cudas.   The above photo comparisons lack this continuity and therefore are interesting, but do not provide the basis to draw a definitive conclusion. 

 

If and when someone does this exact camera/lense/angle comparison, the most likely conclusion will be that none of the models - the MPC, JoHan, or Revell - are 100% correct replicas of the 1/1 car, but all of them are reasonably close.  

 

Yes, the Revell body has some errors - most (but not all) of which have been pointed out in this thread of posts.  But for most of us, when any of these three scale 'cudas are done and setting on the shelf, they say "'70 'cuda" when you look and handle them.  (Well, the JoHan says '71, but you get my point).

 

Just weighing in here, "representing the opposition"...

 

Cheers....TIM

Tim, 

 

Exactly!  Having had just enough experience in product development, both in 1/25 scale models, and diecast, the only way I've found  to judge any scale model for accuracy (certainly shapes and contours) is looking at the miniature in as close to the angle of the camera which recorded the image of the real thing that one is trying to use.

 

Even with picture-to-picture comparisons of just the real car--different cameras, at different angles to the subject can tell different stories, given the often complex shapes of a real car body.  And, when studying the model against the real thing--try closing one eye, so that the model appears to you more-or-less in two dimensions, simply for the reason that a camera has but one "eye" (one lens) while we humans are born with two eyes, giving the ability to see things with "binocular" vision.

 

Art



#670 FASTBACK340

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 04:53 AM

Not that I memorized every point made in over 650 posts, but why are the throttle bores splayed 45 degrees off in those horrible carbs? They have a single barrel front & rear w/ 2 on the center sides!

 

Thank goodness the shaker will cover that lump.  <_< 



#671 Erik Smith

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 04:58 AM

Not that I memorized every point made in over 650 posts, but why are the throttle bores splayed 45 degrees off in those horrible carbs? They have a single barrel front & rear w/ 2 on the center sides!
 
Thank goodness the shaker will cover that lump.  <_< 


Accurate, good looking carbs are few and far between in all kits...and 90% of bad and good get covered!

#672 tim boyd

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 05:30 AM

Tim, 

 

Exactly!  Having had just enough experience in product development, both in 1/25 scale models, and diecast, the only way I've found  to judge any scale model for accuracy (certainly shapes and contours) is looking at the miniature in as close to the angle of the camera which recorded the image of the real thing that one is trying to use.

 

Even with picture-to-picture comparisons of just the real car--different cameras, at different angles to the subject can tell different stories, given the often complex shapes of a real car body.  And, when studying the model against the real thing--try closing one eye, so that the model appears to you more-or-less in two dimensions, simply for the reason that a camera has but one "eye" (one lens) while we humans are born with two eyes, giving the ability to see things with "binocular" vision.

 

Art

Art...good point about closing one eye when comparing actual shapes vs. pictures of same.   

 

You just reminded me of a technique sometimes used in the 1/1 scale automotive design studios when comparing designs - which is to look at the designs upside down or rotated 90 degrees.   The eyes pick up differences that are unseen in more familiar views.  Hmmm...maybe I should do that exercise in this case and see what pops up. 

 

TIM 



#673 gtx6970

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 05:31 AM

I disagree Jay and Rodney, looking at your pics, there are small diffrences, but not glaring ones.

 

I gotta agree here.

Having been around mopars all my life. And just recently did a ground up restoration on a 1970 Hemi Cuda .

 

The biggest complaint I have with the revell kit is too pronounced wheel lips ( they look too much like wheel flairs )  , weak tail light surround moulding ( easily recitied with strip stryene ,,not that I think I should have to on a new tool kit ) and the contorted body line above the rear wheel lips. ( not an easy fix imo )  

 

Am I so dis-appointed with it  that I'll  send them back and hord my original MPC issues ? No

But I am glad I hung on to my MPC issues

 

 

869631DSC01912.jpg

 

Oddly enough,, no one has mentioned the windshield washer reservoir ( white plastic piece in the lower left corner of the engine compartment ) is incorrect for a 1970 E body. 1970 E bodies it whould be pretty square on top ,not have the rounded corner.

 

Sorry, everyone is picking on this kit and being a life long die hard mopar nut I had to mention it,, as in the 1/1 world this would be considered blasphemey .


Edited by gtx6970, 18 January 2014 - 05:37 AM.


#674 FASTBACK340

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 05:53 AM

Accurate, good looking carbs are few and far between in all kits...and 90% of bad and good get covered!

 

 

I know… I know…. but the point is:

 

 

In the `60's Revelll would cast engine blocks with cranks and realistic representations of pistons in various stroke depths in the bores. Details 99% of viewers after assembly never saw either, but they got it "right". I just find it puzzling that such obvious "non-interpetable" details are gotten wrong 50 years later.  Distributor terminal count, carb. barrel layout, exaggerated wheel lips, etc.  To me, this all shouldn't be noticeable after the consumer pulls off the shrink-wrap. You mean to tell me, there isn't ONE car-guy in the entire process that does't see these things before the the guys in the suits yeah-yeah it into production? Or do the suits brush them off?  The distributor is the biggest detail that speaks the loudest, as least to me. It can't ALL be the corporate "get it out and make money" mindset. Doesn't anyone see this along the way? If the side marker lights were vertical would that be dismissed too?

 

Just making some observations. I know that there are people here way-more connected to this project than me, and I mean no disrespect, but remember I represent the guy your selling to. I still think it's a great kit, but why do these things get through?

 

Just saying….



#675 sak

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 03:50 PM

I am.guessing that a large part of the market are still people buying them for children..of whom, most dont add detail like spark wires and problem dont know a cylinder or how many of them are in a Hemi.

#676 FASTBACK340

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 02:29 AM

<sigh…> Your right, it just may be that simple. Why bother, who would notice?


Edited by FASTBACK340, 19 January 2014 - 04:03 AM.


#677 tim boyd

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 05:05 AM

 

 

I know… I know…. but the point is:

 

 

In the `60's Revelll would cast engine blocks with cranks and realistic representations of pistons in various stroke depths in the bores. Details 99% of viewers after assembly never saw either, but they got it "right". I just find it puzzling that such obvious "non-interpetable" details are gotten wrong 50 years later.  Distributor terminal count, carb. barrel layout, exaggerated wheel lips, etc.  To me, this all shouldn't be noticeable after the consumer pulls off the shrink-wrap. You mean to tell me, there isn't ONE car-guy in the entire process that does't see these things before the the guys in the suits yeah-yeah it into production? Or do the suits brush them off?  The distributor is the biggest detail that speaks the loudest, as least to me. It can't ALL be the corporate "get it out and make money" mindset. Doesn't anyone see this along the way? If the side marker lights were vertical would that be dismissed too?

 

Just making some observations. I know that there are people here way-more connected to this project than me, and I mean no disrespect, but remember I represent the guy your selling to. I still think it's a great kit, but why do these things get through?

 

Just saying….

John...good points, all. 

 

Ideally we'd get a direct response from someone inside the companies, but I don't expect that is going to happen any time soon. 

 

As an outsider looking in, perhaps I can add some perspective that will hopefully be more correct than not...

 

First, the model companies I know of today are VERY small, tight-knit organizations today.  The remaining industry volume and sales revenue for model car kit sales just can't support larger or even moderately sized organizations.  So in the situations I am aware of, the "Suits" as they are sometimes call here, are heavily involved in the creation and production of the kits.  In fact, the most senior person I currently know well in the model companies is a die-hard car enthusiast who has owned (and maintained, and worked on) C2 Corvettes for virtually his entire adult life and regularly travels to the Woodward Dream Cruise, Oakland (now in LA) Roadster Show, and similar car-guy events.  My guess is that he probably knows more about the insides of a carb than 90% of us who read this forum.   

 

Second, I can understand the frustration with inaccurately rendered carb venturis and seven vs. eight hole distributors, but for some on this board to discredit this entire kit on the basis of those and some very evident overdone wheel lips, strikes me as a case of possibly missing the bigger picture in this case.  As you put it, I mean no disrespect, but...what about all the stuff Revell got right with this kit?  The correct factory stock building options like the plated as well as correctly shaped Elastomeric front bumpers?  The overall appearance of the finished chassis and the interior?  The shape of separately molded, plated fishgill rocker panels or the engraving on the pistol grip shifter handle, for example?  I'll be very up front here - I built two of these kits and I still missed both the distributor and carb venturi goofs, probably because so much of the kit was right.  Could that have been what happened at Revell? 

 

Finally, all consumer products are the result of tradeoffs.  In this case, the model manufacturers have to work with Artisans that are half the world away, who in most cases have never been given the benefit of seeing in person what they are being asked to recreate in miniature.  The volumes involved can no longer financially justify having the tools created just 60 miles down the road (e.g. 1225 East Maple to the former tooling house in Windsor, Canada) any more.  The alternative would be no new kits at all.  Instead, the model companies work with their suppliers and overseas tooling houses to get these products right as much as humanly possible, and those suppliers also do their best to get it right.  Then there's the timeline.  At what point do you hit the "publish" button?  If you were the product manager, would you have held the kit up yet another 3-6 months (uneducated guess here) to fix the distributor and carb?  

 

Now it's time for me to question something.  Having spent my 35 1/2 years in the auto industry of which the last 12 were senior positions in the Design department, I agree with Chuck K. on the following - I do not understand why the model companies are not using 3D digital scans in the development of their 1950's to 1970's model car kits.  By this point in the 100 year development of the automotive styling profession, each 1/1 scale car design was the result of thousands of hours of studio designers and engineers fine tuning things like - for example- wheel well openings and fender lips.  Or in this case, the artistry of the surfaces in the '70 'cuda taillight panel cove, which no one - MPC, JoHan, or Revell - has correctly captured in their kits.  There just isn't time or money to continue to develop a 1/25th scale tool to catch all these subtle tweaks.   On the other hand, the cost of a high quality digital scan is now in the mid 4 digit range (e.g., just $5,000, more or less), and with some additional expenditures to process the scan results, and perhaps to ship, prep, and clean the 1//1 scale car post-scan.  This digital scan could at least give the overseas toolmakers a huge head start in capturing the subtle surface nuances of the original 1/1 scale designs.  It would seem to me that the incremental cost of this up front expenditure would be more than offset by not having to retool body castings to correct mistakes that were the result of trying to design a model from 2D pictures alone.  To me, personally, this is a much bigger issue than some embarrassing omissions or engraving on small engine parts. 

 

Once again, I'm struggling to find the right tonality in these remarks.   I feel that there is a great deal of misunderstanding in the hobby community about how the model car industry actually works.  As a result there are often statements made on the model car boards that are, at best, unfair to the hardworking people at these companies.  But on the other hand, and as you John so succinctly and correctly put "you represent the guy that they are selling to". 

 

Hope this adds a little bit of insight.  Others with industry contacts, feel free to step in with your knowledge and views as well, whether they agree with me or not!   TIM      



#678 tim boyd

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 05:11 AM

I am.guessing that a large part of the market are still people buying them for children..of whom, most dont add detail like spark wires and problem dont know a cylinder or how many of them are in a Hemi.

 

For this type of kit, the model companies are designing for the adult hobbyist, and from what I know the buyers are almost all adult model car builders.  

 

Children (or parents buying for children) usually go for the simpler, "snap kit" or "fast build" products today.

 

TB



#679 Luc Janssens

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 06:01 AM

 

"The cost of a high quality digital scan is now in the mid 4 digit range (e.g., just $5,000, more or less), and with some additional expenditures to process the scan results, and perhaps to ship, prep, and clean the 1//1 scale car post-scan.  This digital scan could at least give the overseas toolmakers a huge head start in capturing the subtle surface nuances of the original 1/1 scale designs.  It would seem to me that the incremental cost of this up front expenditure would be more than offset by not having to retool body castings to correct mistakes that were the result of trying to design a model from 2D pictures alone.  To me, personally, this is a much bigger issue than some embarrassing omissions or engraving on small engine parts."

 TIM      

See my post below...


Edited by Luc Janssens, 19 January 2014 - 06:13 AM.


#680 Hawk312

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 06:01 AM

 

Now it's time for me to question something.  Having spent my 35 1/2 years in the auto industry of which the last 12 were senior positions in the Design department, I agree with Chuck K. on the following - I do not understand why the model companies are not using 3D digital scans in the development of their 1950's to 1970's model car kits.  By this point in the 100 year development of the automotive styling profession, each 1/1 scale car design was the result of thousands of hours of studio designers and engineers fine tuning things like - for example- wheel well openings and fender lips.  Or in this case, the artistry of the surfaces in the '70 'cuda taillight panel cove, which no one - MPC, JoHan, or Revell - has correctly captured in their kits.  There just isn't time or money to continue to develop a 1/25th scale tool to catch all these subtle tweaks.   On the other hand, the cost of a high quality digital scan is now in the mid 4 digit range (e.g., just $5,000, more or less), and with some additional expenditures to process the scan results, and perhaps to ship, prep, and clean the 1//1 scale car post-scan.  This digital scan could at least give the overseas toolmakers a huge head start in capturing the subtle surface nuances of the original 1/1 scale designs.  It would seem to me that the incremental cost of this up front expenditure would be more than offset by not having to retool body castings to correct mistakes that were the result of trying to design a model from 2D pictures alone.  To me, personally, this is a much bigger issue than some embarrassing omissions or engraving on small engine parts. 

 

  

 

 

When I hear about model companies using a 1:1 car for measurements, I am always curious about why they are not doing this as well. I would imagine this would make kit bodies nearly 100% accurate. 

 

Has anyone seen this at Hobby Lobby yet? They still don`t have this kit in my local one.