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Question for contest judges regarding non-scratchbuilt modifications


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#21 Harry P.

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 06:42 AM

So, at a contest, two identical models both built to the same standard(hypothecial possiblity, real life unlikely) the modeler who does all his own work(scratch builder), gets an advantage over the builder who buys his stuff from a third party.


Why?

Why should builder A have an edge over builder B from the judges because builder A did more scratchbuilding? Shouldn't the finished product (the model) be the thing that's being judged... not the relative talent levels of builder A vs. builder B?

To make an analogy... if you were judging an apple pie contest at the county fair, wouldn't you judge the winner based solely on the taste, texture, appearance, etc. of the finished pie? The fact that baker A churned her own butter or grew her own apples and baker B bought her butter and apples at the store shouldn't be a factor. The only thing that should be judged is the end result.

Or am I off base?

#22 Harry P.

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 06:48 AM

To elaborate...

Let's say you're the judge. In your opinion, baker A's pie tastes no better or worse than baker B's pie.

Are you saying that you'd judge baker A's pie differently? You'd give some sort of edge or "extra credit" to baker A because she went to more trouble in the process than baker B did... even though baker B's pie turned out just as well?

Isn't that unfair to baker B?

#23 plowboy

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 06:57 AM

My opinion, for the little that it is worth is this. The balance should be tipped for the person who made their own parts reguardless of the methods used. My point here is that the type of construction is not relevant. Case in point is turned aluminum parts. They have been around for years and the person who buyes his parts verse the person who owns a lathe and turns his own is significant. Same applies to 3D printed parts. If you make them youself there is a differant skill level involved than the person who buys them off the shelf.


But, what if the bought parts look much better than the scratchbuilt parts?

#24 paul alflen

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 06:59 AM

HARRY HAS IT RIGHT! EXAMPLE-DOES THIS 1963 ZIP-O-MOBILE LOOK AND FEEL LIKE THE REAL THING ,? YOU JUDGE THE MODEL CAR ,NOT ON HOW THE BUILDER GOT THERE,BUT HOW HE USED THOSE PARTS TO REALISTICALLY REPRESENT THE REAL THING IN SCALE, NO MATTER WHAT IT IS!

#25 Scale-Master

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:05 AM

But (using Harry's analogy) what if Baker A made her pie from apples she grew and harvested and Baker B used processed apples? Hmmm? Both taste exactly the same.

Just because one person had to put more effort in to be equal does not mean they automatically should have the scales tipped in their favor does it?
Another perspective is the one who was able to get the same quality results with less work might be a better craftsman therefore shouldn't they get the benefit?

That is where blind anonymous judging to award the best piece is the fairest, assuming it is a contest for that. Once you start factoring in who did what under what circumstances (handicaps or special skill sets) it ceases to be a contest of the best built model and becomes something more convoluted.

#26 dimebolt

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:20 AM

Now there's a man who I agree with. B)

Me too man.
Gotta make yourself happy first and foremost.
I post my builds on a bunch of forums for example. I don't do it because I'm looking to gain approval from anybody. I do it because of a number of reasons. I love seeing other people's work, and like to contribute mine as well. And I've gotten tons of great ideas and feedback on my builds by doing so. The way I see it is, the judges cant see it on my shelf. I'm the one who has to be ultimately happy with it, and look at it everyday. Build for yoursef, and you will be alot happier in the end. If somebody else likes it. Well then that's just a really cool bonus.
Corey

Edited by dimebolt, 16 October 2012 - 07:20 AM.


#27 sjordan2

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:32 AM

But (using Harry's analogy) what if Baker A made her pie from apples she grew and harvested and Baker B used processed apples? Hmmm? Both taste exactly the same.

Just because one person had to put more effort in to be equal does not mean they automatically should have the scales tipped in their favor does it?
Another perspective is the one who was able to get the same quality results with less work might be a better craftsman therefore shouldn't they get the benefit?

That is where blind anonymous judging to award the best piece is the fairest, assuming it is a contest for that. Once you start factoring in who did what under what circumstances (handicaps or special skill sets) it ceases to be a contest of the best built model and becomes something more convoluted.


In general theory, I agree with you - if the end result is the same, what does it matter? But it seems to me that the idea of 3D printing or scratchbuilding or aftermarket is to produce something that is either better or different than what's in the kit, or not included. (So the apples-to-apples comparison is more like apples to oranges :P .) It's not putting in more effort to be equal, it's putting in the effort to be better.

#28 Nate

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:39 AM

It all has to do with execution. If someone loads a model up with aftermarket and scratch-built parts, but it looks like garbage and another person builds a superb box-stock model, I would give higher points to the box-stock. It's ALL execution.

Edited by Nate, 16 October 2012 - 07:40 AM.


#29 Harry P.

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:41 AM

It's not putting in more effort to be equal, it's putting in the effort to be better.


That's the point. You put in the effort (scratchbuilding, PE parts, whatever) in order to get the best final result.

And that--the final result--is what should be judged, not the process that it took to get there.

Is the model a realistic representation of the real thing? Or if a custom or phantom, is it built cleanly?

Is the paint well done? Does the model sit on all four tires? Are there any obviously wrong or out of scale items? Are there glue smears or misaligned parts? Are panel gaps consistent and in scale?

All of those things are fair to judge, but whether the builder used a scratchbuilt or an aftermarket seatbelt harness is immaterial. What counts is what the end result looks like, not how the builder got to the end result.

#30 Guest_G Holding_*

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:42 AM

Fit and Finish....say that 3 times quickly....

Edited by G Holding, 16 October 2012 - 07:42 AM.


#31 sjordan2

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:45 AM

Fit and Finish....say that 3 times quickly....


fittenfinish,fitfish,gefiltefish. Whew.

#32 johnbuzzed

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:04 AM

"Scratchbuilt" and/or "fabricated" does not guarantee quality; nor does "aftermarket". It's all in the fidelity (and yes, the fit and finish) of the final product. This is a topic that could be debated for a long time.

#33 Terry Sumner

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:07 AM

I wonder how many of you fellas who have been voicing opinions on this have been consistently judging contests? Myself, I've been judging at IPMS and non-IPMS contests for 20 years...since around 1991 or 92. And I will tell you from my experience that it matters not one bit where a part came from, whether it is plastic, resin, photoetch or 3D... What matters is the final quality of the build...period.

A modeler can spend all kinds of money on resin parts etc...but if they aren't installed properly...meaning no glue marks, fingerprints, misalignment etc etc..it doesn't matter a bit as that model won't win. Likewise for paint. If a car model has noticeable orange peel in the paint, no matter how many dollars the guy has put into aftermarket parts, 3D or resin, it's dead in the water at the get-go! Or if there are decals on the car and they are all silvered underneath, that model is a goner too. Lot's of car modelers aren't all that familiar with the proper techniques for laying down decals so they look painted on. Some guys will stick decals right on top of a flat black hood and wonder why they don't win when the decals are silvered like crazy.

And 3D parts aren't any kind of guarantee that they are good. The inherent process of making a 3D part means the part is built up in layers. From what I've seen these 3D parts need some finishing work done to them to make them acceptable in surface finish.

I kind of get a kick out of guys who espouse the old..."Don't build for contests, build for yourself." Well for me, building for contests IS building for myself. Contests are the single best way to hone your skills to build much better models. If it weren't for all the contests, the art of model building today would be no where near as advanced as it is presently. And having the opportunity to talk with a judge about what they observed right or wrong on your model is the best way to learn how to improve. If you want to be a hermit and just build models without any interaction with other like minded individuals, that's fine. But to me that's a cancerous opinion and I wish you guys wouldn't tell other modelers to do that. You do them no favors by trying to get others to shy away from competition.

That's just my opinion...others of course will vary....

#34 Chas SCR

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:20 AM

Over all look of the car should win no matter what aftermarket or 3d deal you doing. You stil have to paint it finish it and put it on the car and make it look right as a builder. Now for paint with all of todays stuff that is out there to work with there should never be orange peal and flat out no use of clear coat. Them two things should never happen and it still goes on so much to the point that the builder needs to step up and learn.

#35 johnbuzzed

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:53 AM

I am a contest judge. I enjoy building for and competing in contests. I also like to build for my shelves; those models do not have to be of contest-quality.

#36 plowboy

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:09 AM

Now for paint with all of todays stuff that is out there to work with there should never be orange peal and flat out no use of clear coat. Them two things should never happen and it still goes on so much to the point that the builder needs to step up and learn.


Seriously?? So, you don't use a clear coat on your builds?

#37 Jantrix

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:20 AM

Sorry guys. The amount of effort that went into a model should NEVER be a consideration in a model contest (or any contest for that matter) ONLY the quality of the finished product. Period. It doesn't matter if the parts were milled, cast, printed or created by fairies in the magical land of Honalee. Only the execution of those parts as part of a model matter.

#38 peter31a

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:55 AM

Sticking another 2 cents into this discussion. I think the amount of effort/scratchbuilding/3Dprinted parts thing would only start factoring in when the judges have narrowed the field down and are trying to decide the top three. For example let's pick custom category: You have 5 vehicles that have flawless paint, no glue smears, no fingerprints, great bare metal foil, all 4 wheels are touching the ground, etc - you can't find fault with any of the basics of model building. That's when they then have to start looking at what else has been done to the model. Is this custom basically box stock versus a one that's chopped, chanelled, fabbed parts etc. That's when level of effort comes into play.
That's why when entering a contest it's important to fill out the form and point out the extra's you've done to a model. Because as much as you would like every model judge to be a walking data bank of every model kit ever produced and of every real car produced, it's just not possible. They are human and are doing the best they can to come up with fair results.

#39 johnbuzzed

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:04 AM

In those rare cases of all else on a build being equal, I would agree with Peter- a winner has to be chosen somehow.

#40 Ace-Garageguy

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:14 AM

So maybe this should transfer back up to 1:1 too. How many cars would be eligible to compete in top shows like the Riddler if there was a stipulation that all the parts had to be made old-school, on non-CNC equipment? Or how about carved from billets with nothing but chisels and files? Those of us who can actually use a milling machine or a lathe the old-school way, or even carve something with chisels and files and grinders would like to know.

PS. I just took a second-place in a small contest with a heavily-modified model with a ton of scratch-built stuff including a roll-cage. Heavy mods including a 4" scale chop and paint that's close to perfect and LOTS of custom, partially-scratched stuff. The winner was a box-stock build that was very very nice, but nowhere near as time-intensive or ambitious as my entry, and certainly not showing off so many differing skills. Even the winner was surprised his entry beat mine. I was just grateful for any recognition.

The moral is, contests are judged by humans, and whatever appeals to the judges most will win (unless there's a standardized grading-sheet employed religiously by ALL contest officials, with weighting for various items, demonstrated skills, etc.)

Edited by Ace-Garageguy, 16 October 2012 - 10:25 AM.