132 replies to this topic

[Scale-Master]

I can see both sides of it. 

While accuracy is a great goal to strive for, the mechanics of how to engineer something to be functioning also has its draw.  I still think you should take the path that gives you the most enjoyment/challenge. 

Trying to please an unknown group of people who might want a copy should be second to making what you want, IMHO...

[NormL]

Oh, you mis-understand, I was always going to finish the working model come hell or high water.  That's one of those "can I do it?" things.  Besides I have way too many hours into it to just drop that aspect.  I guess I was trying to find out if others were viewing that aspect as cool as I do or they were more along the lines of "yeah that's cool, but, when is the model coming out?"

Edited by NormL, 10 January 2013 - 08:44 AM.

[Chuck Kourouklis]

Well, seems to me that if you felt up to it, maybe you could offer two versions, the functional one you've already developed, and maybe the static one with all the details in scale.  Of course, the more enterprising builders probably won't have much trouble working up things like their own fixed springs or suspension arm mounts, so you arguably have a fine base model just as it stands.

 

As for the argument on how the eye perceives scale, and why a perfect reduction doesn't look right (except for all the ones that DO, yours notably among them), I think what you're seeing is really more an aggregate reaction to a number of forums in which this subject comes up.  'Round here, I guess, you're more likely to find it when new kits are discussed and proportion problems come up.  The Revell '70 'Cuda discussion in "Kit Reviews" doesn't hit on it dead-center, but kind of runs closely parallel.

[Lownslow]

This design is to the Shapeways design standards for White Strong and Flexible (WSF)  http://www.shapeways.com/materials/strong-flexible  WSF is a laser sintered plastic that is 100% nylon, so, most anything that you are used to will work.  The issue will be a laser sintered plastic is left very porous and really should be sealed before painting.  It has a rough course texture and just absorbs paint.  When doing the fenders I found that I could be very rough with it.  I had printed each front fender as 12 pieces that I glued together (this is because Shapeways apply idiotic length rules for long 3D objects).  I used super glue to glue them into shape and the pieces absorbed a ton of super glue.  I then took the fenders and bondo'ed them and sanded any imperfection out.  I also used the bondo on the back side to make them strong enough for casting.  Primer to 400 grit and cast.  WSF is very strong if the part is engineered to have internal reinforcement and if printed thin enough very flexible, just a great material.  I have also found that heat absorption ridges need to be strategically added to longer prints

i dipped my WSF parts in future to stop them from absorbing paint

[mysterj1]

Have been reading through this and trying my best to keep up with the technicalities thereof...amazing work!

 

For those who don't know, the Atom is simply a FLABBERGASTING vehicle...I came across this a few years back and have been wanting an Atom of my own...

[NormL]

I didn't post the stuff that went into making the first print here, well as I wasn't here then.  If you are curious about it prior to what I show here you can see it on AtomChat http://arielatomchat.com/forums/thread1178.html  A little more incite and some bitching.

[MachinistMark]

This is so freaking cool!

 

but, better not let Cadillac pat see this thread or hell try to have you burned at the stake for being a witch..

[Bernard Kron]

Thanx for starting this thread and thanx to all who have participated for their intelligent comments thus far. Like all technologies, 3D printing started with its limitations quite apparent and has gradually addressed and resolved them. I'm sure this will continue and the technology will deliver hansomely on its promise.

 

NormL, your discussion underscores two themes which have been with us in the world of plastic kit auto modeling at least for the last 50 years, fidelity of function and fidelity of representation. Of the two, fidelity of representation has invariably won out over fidelity of function. One of the first things most plastic kit scale modelers abandaon, generally with little or no regret, is rolling wheels, even though almost all kits try to accomodate this. Other functional details which are almost always ingnored are things like opening doors, trunk lids, etc. More advanced modelers enjoy adding them to models but most modelers rarely if ever complain that kits are missing these features. Yet other functional details like working headlamps, sprung suspension, and even "steerable" or "posable" wheels are hardly missed at all. On the other hand, fine, thin body panels are appreciated, as are sharp crisp edges, and strong, well engineered joints. So "concessions" which put structural integrity, ease of assembly and proportional accuracy over functional detail pretty much rule the day in the world of scale automobile modeling.

 

The major limitation of 3D printing as of as recently as a year ago was, as I understood it, printing resolution and how it affected surface smoothness and porosity and fineness of detail in very small parts. 1/25 and 1/24 scale result in very small parts so coarse media and printing resolution was, and may still be, a real "deal breaker" in our world. Is that still the case or are affordable high resolution printing and superfine media merging now as a real possibility? Your comments anout the porosity issue of your 1:1 parts for your Atom were very revealing in this regard.

 

Thanx again. I will be following this discussion closely.

[NormL]

Since I don't paint or work with models, my opinions on applicability are fairly useless.  I can tell you if I was trying to do an accurate representation, I would not be utilizing just one printer.  For true representation with current tech, I do believe you have to use several methods to achieve the goal.  I would be using WSF for the main body and structure due to cost and strength, I would be using FUD (Frosted Ultra Detail) http://www.shapeways.../frosted-detail for detail glue on parts due to the very high detail but highly brittle.  FUD is a deposit style of printing and I have seen some extreme detail from this that I would find hard to believe would not meet detail standards (this was not a Shapeways print).  Shapeways deposit style does have some great detail look at the tiny Atom next to the penny on page one of this thread, but, I have seen the flawless repeat of the detail of the face of a coin.  I would love to have access to an SLM machine for sintered metal, the detail and strength being another big bold step, ... i.e. I think might still be NASA only.

Subject change ...

Getting bored awaiting the model.  Here are some detail pictars of how I am envisioning the systems working.  If it works, very cool!  If it doesn't ...





The idea is that you would push in the rod by the tire which in turn pushes a plate and shaft to the right.  The drive shaft gear is on the shaft and will be forced into contact with a very large granny gear on the storage shaft.  Dragging the car backward will now "load" the spring.  This will spin the storage shaft and start walking it to the left until a pawl engages the top lever and the shaft will not rotate anymore.  This should now be sitting in a locked state until the top lever is activated.  If there is enough flexibly in the plastic printed spring when the lever is released it should spin the drive shaft and the car should move forward.  It may not move, dribble forward or do a burn out, ...lots and lots of ifs .....

 

I also got a feeling reading the 3D printing thread, that some of you are awaiting that printer for your shop before you jump in.  Tech is changing way to quickly for any printer purchased not to trounce any laptop in devaluation.  That is why I use Shapeways, their 900K laser sinter machine is fine, I wait a week but I don't get 84 easy monthly payments.  Otherwise you may be waiting a while and as I said above, several different printers may be necessary to do what you need.

Edited by NormL, 10 January 2013 - 07:37 PM.

[Lownslow]

Youre gonna love Form 1 thats the printer im aiming for this year

[crazyrichard]

reading all of this makes me feel 3-d printing is awsome .. but for me i would say i like the idea more for making parts like wheels and suspension to ad to a kit maybe.. i love a printed finished model but it kind of lacks a soul .. its like when people build a bike (just an example) with all waterjet parts and clean as ...it looks great .. but then park a handbuild bike next to it .. whow what a difference .. not flaming 3-d printing at all , i think its a great thing with lots of potential ... but its not something i would like to get into i like cutting plastic and making stuff by hand and putting in time with your hands that said its def very cool to watch and see ... dont get me wrong

[NormL]

Too much is being made of 3D printing, at the end of the day, it is just another tool in the tool shed.  Will it replace injected plastic?  I am not seeing it yet, as the cost will never be less.  There will be those that use the tool now and others that wait to implement, regardless it is here to stay.  Richard, I think you did hit the nail on the head as there is a substantial learning curve to get to the point where you can design and entire car and print it.  The learning curve is much less for parts and that is undoubtedly where it will blossom. 

 

You mentioned wheels.  I did the Team Dynamic Pro 1.2 wheels on the Atom in about an hour.  I went to the scan cloud and took a cross section of one spoke of the twelve, just a jpg screen shot.  I took that jpg and embedded it into a CAD program and traced the outline.  I then went to the Pegasus tires that I could source and determined the dimensions the wheels had to be, this was with blatant disregard to scale as I was matching something.  I then scaled my spoke cartoon to the radius of the Pegasus tire.  The cartoon was then revolved 360° into a 3D solid that you would recognize as a wheel blank having the shape of the wheel without any cutouts.  Back to the scan cloud and measure the cutouts and apply them to the wheel blank and now it is really starting to look like the wheel.  However, ... more compromise time, ... the spokes have to be a minimum of 0.7mm to be printable in WSF and that can't go on for very long as that does not dissipate printing heat.  I decided that since they were holding the weight of the entire model, I would be cautious here and made my minimum 0.9mm instead.  So the net effect is the outer points of the wheels are compromises as are the proportions, but, they don't look that bad.  I then just went to the car with a verier caliper and measured the depth and other attributes of the lug areas and did those cutouts too.  Fillet the edges, done.  OK, a person working out of their house is not going to have access to a scan cloud, so, you end up throwing a straight edge over the wheel and measure the out and downs, ... same effect.  Maybe it would have taken an hour and a half without the scan cloud.  This is all something that could have been done in the open source Blender for free.  My point being the design of parts is here now.  Car bodies, that is a different issue and requires that you have the scan cloud or you are willing to ultimately compromise on reality.

 

As far as the porosity and other printing issues, let's go back to it is a tool in the tool shed, ... learn how to work with it.  The printing manufacturers are not going to pander to you for a while as they have bigger more lucrative fish at the moment.  Sealing it cannot be a deal breaker.  Having to sand it smooth, again that cannot be a deal breaker.  I am into the challenge of the design, so, I am going for something different.

Edited by NormL, 11 January 2013 - 06:26 AM.

[crazyrichard]

what i do like is that you can design parts and print parts that are not available , stuff with hard shapes .. so def has a lot of potential for the future

[NormL]

I designed some cones to go around my model once I get the final print.  This will annoy the people in the office more than usual, LOL.  Next time I print I am going to order a set.  So, I guess I am going to paint after all.

 

http://www.shapeways...8707f72608c0ac3

 

 

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[NormL]

[NormL]

OK, stupid question, ... does someone make things like pneumatic jacks and jack stands in 1/24th?  My desk diorama needs more stuff.  I was thinking I would print a working jack for the frame, but, my measurements tell me it would have to be 1/12th scale not to have a lot of concessions.  Just a static thing at 1/24th.  If not, I will go ahead and do the 1/12th and then scale it down, I kind of like the dual articulation point challenge to make the jack pad stay flat.

Edited by NormL, 13 January 2013 - 11:48 AM.

[NormL]

Well I decided that my diorama needs to be 100% printed.  So I got started during the Seahawks game, ... sad right now.  Anyway got the easy stuff the outer frame and wheels done.

[NormL]

I am not setting any speed records as i am watching football mainly, LOL.  I still need to make the two sides stable with each other, create the arm, the spring and the handle stops.

 

The gaps on this 1/12th scale version are 0.5mm.  I wish I had some of your metal skills as adding a few shims and this would work quite well.

[NormL]

OK, finished.  The same pic's work for the 1/12th and the 1/24th as they will use different materials.  1/12th scale in WSF and 1/24th in FUD

 

I don't know where my tray is for my jack.  I use the jack for the Atom and I can't get it under the car with it on.  I must have placed it somewhere I could not forget.  I am going to have to find it as my other cars do need it.

[Lownslow]

nice i got something really cool in mind for my shop