132 replies to this topic

[NormL]

This morning before heading into the garage I got side lined making some new 1/24th garage stuff.  Got the individual wheel lifts done, the lock should work and they should slide correctly and of course the casters should spin and the wheels should rotate.  Need to finish the holder.

 

Edited by NormL, 10 February 2013 - 10:45 AM.

[Bennyg]

Fantastic stuff. Ben

[NormL]

Thanks Ben,  I got it done between gluing sessions.

 

 

I thickened it and modified it where I thought would be necessary.  I am concerned that the main holder spar will need some gusseting, but, I want to print one to test.

[NormL]

Does anybody know if there is a Cobalt SS LSJ 2.0 engine that is already available that I could place in this frame?  How about Recaro seats, although the Atom ones were special narrow ones?

[lanesteele240]

Do you think the big kit companies are scared of this Technology yet?
They should be

[NormL]

Well it is time for a paradigm shift in philosophy.  So far, I have printed "en bloc" as a fully functioning unit.  It came out cooler than I ever thought it would, but, the material it is printed in is to hard to work with.  Impressive as a printed object, but, in the end that is what it is.  After looking at the superb detail available with the FUD material from Shapeways as demonstrated in these pictars ..


I want to print it in FUD...

A big thank you to Bernard Kron for the pictures I can't seem to take.  Another big thank you to Bernard for his review and assessments of the prints.  I asked Bernard to look at the prints for painting and/or finishing purposes.  Basically, because I know nothing about painting model cars having only painted 1:1 in the last thirty years.

The good of the project so far:
1. Wheels rotate, suspension and steering works
2. Print is very strong and takes a 1:1 human foot before considerable damage is done
3. A printed engine storage system that is so very close to working,  So close I am calling it a success and I am just tired of printing it.
4. Flexibility of the material was fun to design to.
5. Printed as a fully functioning unit, no assembly other than tires
6. An outstanding desk ornament!

The bad:
1. Material does not sand, is porous and is very very hard to bring to a surface that can take paint.
2. Suspension joints and steering system are inaccurate so that they could be printed with articulation.
3. WSF minimums made the gaps for articulation huge
4. Really really hard to paint a fully assembled model.
5. Detail is not good when compared to FUD
6. Printer leaves orientation marks

With all that said, I am going to reconfigure the print for detail and for FUD printing.  The detail of the stupid little jack is hard to believe when it is sitting in your hand and it too is fully functional!  This will mean that I will have to rebuild the suspension, the steering, wheels and hubs.  After many conversations with Bernard I realize there is merit to something that is not just an engineering exercise.  I am talking about printing the model as a kit or a pile of parts, as many as I can cram into the printing box, tub, seats, cowls and the engine and transmission.  I am going to work towards a strength and gap test piece in the next few weeks.  The next model will focus on accuracy and sacrifice articulation, ... OK, that was hard to type.  Yeah, it has occurred to me that I could print a working engine in FUD, pistons, rods, crank the works in 1:24, ... Must stop thinking this direction.  OK, I will get it all out, I could print so the seat brackets are adjustable, the engine rotates (although that would be lost on the completed model), the steering works, the hood and cowl can be removed, the wheels rotate and still maintain accuracy with FUD.  Suspension will not happen because you can print FUD to be flexible, but, it stress fractures very easily (springs would break)

Bernard turned me onto scale hardware and I am thinking that I will try the first print to accept bolts in the flanges so that the wheels will be bolted on.  I may not have the flange depth for this, we will see.  

I need to find a Cobalt SS engine locally to laser scan for modeling.  If it is at a junk yard, I want to scan a couple of other engines for modeling too, if they will let me.  I would love a VW V10 diesel, but, they are kind of rare, might have to settle for a Cummins as I like those too.  

I am actually excited about making a "kit" for the Atom in FUD. It will not be cheap, I am thinking that by the time I have all of the panels, seats and other parts done it will be right around four times the cost of the current print.   I was also thinking of printing a "pole" of bearing material that would be driven into the bearing areas for an even tighter gap control on the suspension joints.  Bernard has the jack that was printed and has a legitimate concern about will painting the jack fill the bearing areas and stop articulation.

[Mooneyzs]

Norm.... This is totally cool what all you are modeling in CAD and printing. What cad software are you using and do you mind if I ask which 3D printer this is that you are printing these parts on. Is it also Ok to ask what the price range for this printer is as well. The jack is totally cool looking forward to see what else you will come up with

[NormL]

Chris, I do not own a 3D printer, i use a printing service.  I do own a 8'x4'x2'high bed CNC, ...lol, but, no printer.  I asked the printing manufacturer a question regarding printing and they thought I was a potential customer and so I know the laser sinter printer is in excess of 900K.  I have no idea how much their FUD printer costs.  There are several printing services, but, mine are printed at Shapeways.com  If you look on their site you will see the two materials that I speak about the White Strong and Flexible (WSF) and Frosted Ultra Detail (FUD)

 

The jack http://shpws.me/n83F

The functional Atom http://shpws.me/nhGG

 

I model in Inventor and I mainly use Cyclone for laser scanning and point manipulation.  like anyone that deals with laser scanning I use a ton of different software depending on what I am trying to accomplish.

[NormL]

I got the wheel dollies today.  Not my most successful first try.  The frame sags and I kind of thought it would, but, I wanted try try it looking something like a full sized one.  The fix won't be that bad.  The wheels roll and rotate just like they are supposed too, but, both long gaps fused, the main slide and the rollers.  Obviously the gaps need to be increased in cases of large contacts.  The holes in the shaft printed fine, but, the mechanism for locking the shafts is frozen.  The accuracy and detail is awesome, I need to understand gap tolerance just a little better




The Atom print is new to me too and it is like this one was printed with a higher heat or something it is very hard to get the moving parts moving on this one.  Much different than the other prints.

[NormL]

One more boring shot ...

[Chief Joseph]

Excellent work, even with the limitations in the material and process.  

[Mooneyzs]

Chris, I do not own a 3D printer, i use a printing service.  I do own a 8'x4'x2'high bed CNC, ...lol, but, no printer.  I asked the printing manufacturer a question regarding printing and they thought I was a potential customer and so I know the laser sinter printer is in excess of 900K.  I have no idea how much their FUD printer costs.  There are several printing services, but, mine are printed at Shapeways.com  If you look on their site you will see the two materials that I speak about the White Strong and Flexible (WSF) and Frosted Ultra Detail (FUD)
 
The jack http://shpws.me/n83F
The functional Atom http://shpws.me/nhGG
 
I model in Inventor and I mainly use Cyclone for laser scanning and point manipulation.  like anyone that deals with laser scanning I use a ton of different software depending on what I am trying to accomplish.

Norm.... Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I wasn't sure at first if you had a personal printer or not. I have purchased many parts from TDR Innovations who has their parts printed by shapeways. Very nice products. That's cool you use inventor to draw up your parts. I use Solidworks to draw mine up. I thought it would be cool to have a personal 3d printer but may be easier to send them out to get printed. Lol

[NormL]

I thought about buying a Formlab, but, the tech is just changing so fast.  Spend 3K to 5K and end up with one style of printing and then want that one over there in six months.  I am doing that with too many other technologies to add another even moving faster one.  The two week wait does ....

[NormL]

I love stress testing.  Today I took the dolly models and since I got liquid out of them when i unpacked them I was thinking that the frozen parts were actually being held by the same substance.  I took a lighter for no more than a couple of seconds under each of the rollers and then tried to roll them, ... they all broke free.  So then I started working on the main slides.  Again with a lighter I could not get them free without a lot of heat turning the little handles brown and breaking half of them.  Too much mass to heat with a point source.  It did answer my question, yes, there is still some of the binder wax on them.  I am going to have to come up with a better heating source than the point source I was using.  Time to go read the Shapeways forums ...

 

After reading their forums it might be as easy as soaking them in isopropyl alcohol to loosen them up.  I am going to give that a try

Edited by NormL, 11 March 2013 - 01:30 PM.

[Ace-Garageguy]

How about ultrasonic cleaning with a solvent that will dissolve the binder wax? Just a thought.

 

Fascinating to watch the progress here....very nice work.

[NormL]

That is a great idea.  That is the next step in static alcohol does not work

[NormL]

After soaking for several hours everything is breaking free, but, the slides.  I really like the ultrasonic idea, but, I want this to be something someone can order and not have to buy a bunch of stuff, besides I don't have an ultrasonic cleaner

The slides are the beefiest parts in near proximity, so, I am guessing the gaps for the larger bearings on the FUD Atom print need to be a bit bigger.  Essentially, rod ends and steering gear will work from the print, larger surfaces such as brake discs against calipers may have to be soaked and the bearing inside the wheels will just have to be bigger.  I suppose that the models could always be baked, I will have to look up the melting points

I am thinking that I will size the shocks to a specific brand of pen and the spring will just be stolen from it and cut to length.  I will have to figure out what size is needed and go to Office Depot and look like a complete tool with my vernier caliper.  I will just print the rest as a kit that floats in the rest of the model

[NormL]

How about ultrasonic cleaning with a solvent that will dissolve the binder wax? Just a thought.

I got movement of all of the parts with the exception of the main slides within an hour of soaking.  I broke off some of the rollers for a closer inspection and found that the viscous liquid was still present even tough I could spin them.  I cleaned off the rest of the viscous liquid and yes they worked much better, although they were broken to get access.  I see that an ultrasonic cleaner is going to be in my tool kit soon .... 

 

After an all night soak the parts were more brittle and had an exterior white deposit.  The main slides are still not free.  Do not soak all night as the parts are definitely weaker.  I know from the broken parts that the slides did print as separate items, the problem then is getting the viscous liquid out.  I am going to look at melting points and see if I can boil the liquid out.

[NormL]

FUD softens at 80°C, so, ultrasonic and tests with alcohol and Dawn dish soap it is!

[NormL]

Soaked the jack for 20 minutes even though it was completely functional.  Well, ... the liquid must have helped hold the setting for the clicks as it does not hold up a car anymore.  It does move a whole lot smoother.  You used to have to move it to where you wanted it by hand and then place the model on it, it now functions as a real jack as I can move it under the car and then raise the car with it.  I am going to have to ask Bernard if he has painted the one he has and how that affected its function.