68 replies to this topic

[CadillacPat]

Thank you, Terry, for that post. So far, the only valid reason listed in this thread for not having one here is Tom's comment about the possibility of loss of advertising revenue for the magazine. I guess what I find distasteful is the perpetual "we can't do that! we're not a store!" excuse, when it's really just a matter of personal preference. Just say "we don't know how to do it without drowning ourselves in it so we won't even try" and let that be that. Anything else is an insult to our intelligence. Maybe that flies fine with some...

 

But I digress. Plastic, here I come.

 

I have to pick this one apart here,

This is all so silly, so what, you can't buy and sell, so what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

quote:   So far, the only valid reason listed in this thread for not having one here is Tom's--------

Does this mean that all other reasons are invalid befause they are not your reasons????????

Doesn't this demonize everyone else and ridicule their opinions????

 

quote:   I guess what I find distasteful is the perpetual "we can't do that! we're not a store!" excuse,-----

Okay, so you feel that is distasteful.  I find licorice distasteful but it's no big deal to me.

 

quote:   Anything else is an insult to our intelligence----------

Again wih the selfdetermined thoughts of a supposed majority of the site.  I'l be the first to say I am not included in that "our" group.

If that really insults your intelligence you must have had a heart attack when Beyonce did her halftime "show",  Now that was an insult to anyone who has intelligence..

 

If I wanted to sell something, as I have with those who have PM'd me, I would never expect a site to be accountable for the transaction.

Nor would I raise a public fuss if the deal went south.

If anyone needs a special portion of the site to Buy and Sell stuff, it is because they do not want to go to the trouble of setting up their own site for that purpose.

It is always easier to get on someone else's gravytrain.

 

CadillacPat

[Psychographic]

> This way the people who run and control this site would know if they have a bad egg on the site.

 

yeah a bad egg. problem is, which one is the bad egg? you cant just take someones word that they are jesus and the other person satan. more often than not there is a problem on both ends. and moderators cant be expected to dig through everything to figure out who is at fault, even if they wanted to. not that i think that should lead to no selling, i just think that when problems arise its incumbent on the involved parties to either figure it out or eat the loss themselves, dont start p*ssing contests on the forums or even worse try to get an "authority" figure involved. but thats not the way of the world, so many people need "mom" around to help them when things dont go their way even though thats largely a problem only between the two parties...so we end up with more "zero tolerance" rules and everyone suffers. way to go whiners.

My point was if a the mods get multiple reports of bad deals concerning one person it's pretty obvious you have someone who's scamming others out of merchandise.

[mikemodeler]

My point was if a the mods get multiple reports of bad deals concerning one person it's pretty obvious you have someone who's scamming others out of merchandise.

 

To your point David, about the only thing the moderators could do is limit the offender's ability to post or belong here. There isn't much Harry, Casey or Gregg can do about transactions gone bad. I am not a seller on eBay or too familiar with eBay rules but my understanding is that you can lose your privileges if there are enough complaints.

 

Most of us have figured out how to deal with the rules. 

[Psychographic]

 

To your point David, about the only thing the moderators could do is limit the offender's ability to post or belong here. There isn't much Harry, Casey or Gregg can do about transactions gone bad. I am not a seller on eBay or too familiar with eBay rules but my understanding is that you can lose your privileges if there are enough complaints.

 

Most of us have figured out how to deal with the rules. 

From my original post.

 

"This should only be done once with the knowledge that you are only notifying them of the problem, nothing should be expected of the moderator."

[mikemodeler]

From my original post.

 

"This should only be done once with the knowledge that you are only notifying them of the problem, nothing should be expected of the moderator."

 

If nothing is expected of the moderator, why bother them in the first place? As they have noted, they get a ton of PMs and sorting through those that are just "notices" keeps them from other things, including contributing to this forum. 

 

Not looking for an argument, but when it comes to selling or trading, the rule I go by "is only part with a kit or money if you can afford to lose it". I don't expect someone else to fix a bad deal for me. I have had my share of good and bad trades and I keep a list of those for future reference. 

[Harry P.]

Let me explain this again, so everyone (I hope) understands it.

 

Someone posts this: I just saw a really cool resin body for a "57 Chevy conversion. Check it out at Joe's Resin Shack.

 

Or someone has this in their signature line: Check out my cool new resin at Joe's Resin Shack

 

Those could be considered "selling" by some, I guess, but I would say they're more like "advertising." A reference or referral as to where to go in order to buy something is ok to post, because any actual sale is not taking place here, but on another site.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I have my new "57 Chevy resin conversion kit in stock now. To buy it send a check for $XX to Joe's Resin Shack, 123 Main Street, USA.

 

That is selling on the forum. If someone posts a thread that allows for a product or service to be bought directly here on the forum without needing to go anywhere else to buy it, that is considered selling on the forum and is not allowed. We don't want to be held accountable or responsible for a sale gone bad, a dissatisfied customer, or any other potential problems selling here would inevitably bring on, whether justified or not. I can see the PMs already... "I bought this kit on the Model Cars forum and I got ripped off. Model Cars owes me my money back."

 

Buying and selling is not one of the functions of this forum. We already have enough problems with angry or dissatisfied traders, we don't want to add angry or dissatisfied buyers and sellers, too.

 

A referral or a reference to a product or website is ok. Placing an ad that allows for direct buying of the product right here on the forum is considered "selling on the forums" and is not allowed.

 

I don't know how I can possibly explain it any more clearly. If anyone still doesn't understand the difference between selling and referrals, PM me.

[mikemodeler]

In May of last year I posted that I had some kits I wanted to sell and to contact me via PM as I was not going to sell on the forum per the rules. My post was taken down within hours. I sent a PM to Gregg and he explained to me his rules and how the forum was run, which I accepted as he pays for it and I am a guest.

 

Other members here post about the products they have for sale and use links to purchase said products and that is acceptable to the moderators.

 

 

I fail to see the difference in the two scenarios above but will consider this my last post on this topic as the horse is being prepared for the dog food canning process.

[LoneWolf15]

Just my opinion ....

We are skating on thin ice here with a chance of hurting the aftermarket industry . Harry explained the rules quite clearly . Casey stated that in his opinion , there is a razor thin line involved with this subject between advertising and promotion which I agree with , up to a point .....

Being a member of the aftermarket cottage industry , I pay for advertisement , whether it be through the magazines , my website , or the online forums . Without it , I'd be dead in the water. Even more importantly , however , is other individuals who purchased my DVDs , promoting their worth in the magazines , on the forums , YouTube , chat rooms , etc . This is what fuels the motor for a business and keeps the lights on and the doors open !

Every chance I get , I praise an individual's product that I find worthy of it , here's why . By doing so , I help that individuals sales grow , which allows them to garner the funds to create even more products for the aftermarket industry . This also helps the hobby itself , by informing other individuals of said products worth , they purchase them , more funds for more product development . Simply put , I'll have more options to work with , and more toys to play with , be they tools , kits , parts , paints , etc !

Revell comes out with a new kit , the resin industry comes out with a different body to go with said kit . Bob Dudek machines a specific set of wheels and head light buckets , while Slixx puts out a new set of decals that enables us to build three different drag versions of Revell's new offering . The industry is a circle that feeds each and every part of itself through promotion via the Internet , forums , and magazines .

If an individual or company cannot afford to advertise , how better to help them and the hobby expand and grow by simply promoting through word of mouth or the keyboard via the forums .

Need aluminum machined parts ? Go see Dudek ! Braided line ? Go to Charlie at Pro Tech ! Badge decals ? Keith Marks , he's the best ! Resin parts ? Eddie Fluck , The MADD Modelers of Detroit , RMR , Competition Resin , etc . Am I advertising here ? Nope ! I am not making one red cent off of them by doing this , I am promoting their excellent line of products . By doing so , I am helping their business and our hobby grow , as should we all !

We have seen quite a few worthwhile companies and products disappear over the last few years for a variety of reasons . The last thing I want to see is this forum or a rule change being the demise of even more ...... Think about that !

[sjordan2]

Well stated, Donn, and I think everything you said seems to fall under the category of fair comment and the guidelines Harry described. I'd like to hear reponses from people who had posts or threads removed because of the "selling" aspect, and to reproduce the content of the removed posts so we can see what isn't allowed.

[mikemodeler]

Donn, 

 

I have been a huge promoter of your DVDs ( bought both of them) and have directed people to them when they ask for help with their painting skills. I appreciate what you have done for the hobby with them and agree that you do not have an advertising budget like Revell to promote them.

 

However, you state that promoting is not advertising and I fail to understand that. In my promotion of your DVDs I was specific as to how to contact you for ordering of your DVDs, a type of subtle advertising, no? If I wanted to make sure that I did not "advertise" Donn Yost's DVDs, then I would have simply said "there is a forum member here who has produced some helpful DVDs, try to find out who that is" and that could not be construed as being an advertisement.

 

Bottom line, in my book, is that you produced a DVD to share with the hobby and put a price tag on them, thereby "selling" them. I understand that the sale of the DVD has not allowed you to retire or buy that vacation home in the Cayman Islands, but the fact of the matter is that you created a business once you sold the first one, even if it was to cover your costs.

 

My argument is that I want to sell some of my model kit collection and re-invest that money back into this hobby. I do not have a hobby shop or hobby related business, just a model builder and collector like most of us. What I find troubling is that if I want to sell my kits, I am told to go to eBay or a local show while cottage industry types get the benefit of selling, albeit discreetly, on the forum.

 

My issue isn't with you or any of the many resin casters or other cottage companies, it is with the double standard that I perceive to exist here. I accept the fact that Gregg has chosen not to have a "marketplace" for active selling, but see so many instances of "walking that fine line" that it irritates me from time to time.

 

Rant over, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

[sjordan2]

Just my opinion ....

We are skating on thin ice here with a chance of hurting the aftermarket industry . Harry explained the rules quite clearly . Casey stated that in his opinion , there is a razor thin line involved with this subject between advertising and promotion which I agree with , up to a point .....

Being a member of the aftermarket cottage industry , I pay for advertisement , whether it be through the magazines , my website , or the online forums . Without it , I'd be dead in the water. Even more importantly , however , is other individuals who purchased my DVDs , promoting their worth in the magazines , on the forums , YouTube , chat rooms , etc . This is what fuels the motor for a business and keeps the lights on and the doors open !

Every chance I get , I praise an individual's product that I find worthy of it , here's why . By doing so , I help that individuals sales grow , which allows them to garner the funds to create even more products for the aftermarket industry . This also helps the hobby itself , by informing other individuals of said products worth , they purchase them , more funds for more product development . Simply put , I'll have more options to work with , and more toys to play with , be they tools , kits , parts , paints , etc !

Revell comes out with a new kit , the resin industry comes out with a different body to go with said kit . Bob Dudek machines a specific set of wheels and head light buckets , while Slixx puts out a new set of decals that enables us to build three different drag versions of Revell's new offering . The industry is a circle that feeds each and every part of itself through promotion via the Internet , forums , and magazines .

If an individual or company cannot afford to advertise , how better to help them and the hobby expand and grow by simply promoting through word of mouth or the keyboard via the forums .

Need aluminum machined parts ? Go see Dudek ! Braided line ? Go to Charlie at Pro Tech ! Badge decals ? Keith Marks , he's the best ! Resin parts ? Eddie Fluck , The MADD Modelers of Detroit , RMR , Competition Resin , etc . Am I advertising here ? Nope ! I am not making one red cent off of them by doing this , I am promoting their excellent line of products . By doing so , I am helping their business and our hobby grow , as should we all !

We have seen quite a few worthwhile companies and products disappear over the last few years for a variety of reasons . The last thing I want to see is this forum or a rule change being the demise of even more ...... Think about that !

 

 

 

 

Here's what works and is approved by the powers that be...

 

MY QUESTION: If Donn Yost replied to a post saying something like "I totally disagree with the prejudice against enamels in favor of lacquers because I have worked with enamels for decades and find them much more versatile. I've even compiled my experience into a series of DVDs with detailed information that you can find here:

 

http://www.oldmansmodels.com/"

 

The answer is, that's okay as long as no transactions are occurring on the forum, but only on the referenced website in the post, without pricing or detailed purchase information on this forum.

 

Edited by sjordan2, 14 February 2013 - 01:08 PM.

[Harry P.]

My issue isn't with you or any of the many resin casters or other cottage companies, it is with the double standard that I perceive to exist here. I accept the fact that Gregg has chosen not to have a "marketplace" for active selling, but see so many instances of "walking that fine line" that it irritates me from time to time.

 

The fine line is this: If someone makes a post here and includes all the information needed in order for a person to actually buy that product right here, without having to go somewhere else to make the purchase, that is "selling on the forum" and is not allowed.

 

If the post is a referral or a reference or a link to a product... in other words, if you have to leave this forum and go somewhere else in order to make the purchase, then that is not considered "selling on the forum."

 

There's a difference between selling and advertising. I agree, it may be splitting hairs to some, but it's a hair that has to be split. I mean, we have to have a specific definition as to what constitutes "selling on the forum" and what doesn't.

 

That's how I define "selling on the forum."

 

Most members here who are also aftermarket suppliers, like Donn or Charlie at Pro Tech and many others, are cool with the no selling rule... and they don't take advantage of the "advertising" side of things. If any particular aftermarket supplier were to get obnoxious and start posting a ton of "buy my stuff at www.xxxxxxxxxx.com" type of posts all over the place, then obviously I would let them know that they needed to cool it. But as long as it doesn't get out of hand, I think I agree with Donn's thought, that the more we know about the various products and services out there, the better is is for the hobby, both buyers and sellers. After all, one of the purposes of a forum is to share information.

 

Again, the reason we don't want actual selling taking place here is the inevitable problems it would cause... buyers and sellers having a problem with a sale. As long as the actual transaction takes place at the seller's website or online store, and not here, we're ok.

 

I know that some of you disagree with my definition of "selling on the forum," but someone has to define it. Unless I hear otherwise from Gregg, my definition is the one we'll use.

[G Holding]

Easiest way is NO links or anything. Period.  Then if a link does show up...it can be removed or SELL ADVERTISING SPACE.

 

I see Donn's paid ads on the other forum, thats how everyone gets a level playing field.

[sjordan2]

Easiest way is NO links or anything. Period.  Then if a link does show up...it can be removed or SELL ADVERTISING SPACE.

 

I see Donn's paid ads on the other forum, thats how everyone gets a level playing field.

 

Seems to me that one of the advantages of a forum like this is to pass along information about where our fellow modelers can find resources they need. This suggestion would ban mention of eBay or online stores by either a helpful member or a seller that uses another site. I think Harry has explained everything very well.

[Aaronw]

Everytime this comes up I shake my head. Nobody cares what you do in PMs or email except for illegal behavior like threatening another member.

 

Have a car model to trade, and somebody PMs you that he doesn't have any of the kits you want but does have a nice, crisp U.S. Grant ($50 bill) that he would trade for it. Do you really think Harry or Casey are going to come crashing through the window like Batman if you accept that "trade"?

 

 

If you "trade" cash for a model or part and get took, so sorry but that is a risk of buying selling anywhere but in person (and sometimes even then). If there is no selling on the site, and you buy or sell something through PMs then you really have no business bringing it up on the site.

 

The trade section is bad enough with people openly negotiating back and forth. Beyond here is what I have, and here are some ideas of what I want for it, the only other posts should be PM sent or requests for more info which doing openinly makes sense because anybody interested might want to see the reply.

 

 

That is the real point of the no buying and selling rule, the mods do not have the time or the ability to play Judge Judy when there is a dispute and really they shouldn't have to. If they are getting as many PMs over bad trades as they say they get, I'm surprised that section has remained open.

[mikemodeler]

Well said Aaron. 

[Casey]

Do you really think Harry or Casey are going to come crashing through the window like Batman if you accept that "trade"?

 

Who wants to be the first to find out??!!! 

 

 

 

 

[Kris Morgan]

Being the owner of an aftermarket company, I really tried to stay out of this so I would not offend anyone. If I do offend you, I am sorry. The key thing to remeber here is that this is a free site for us to enjoy.. The rule is what it is.   I will not act as if I have never sold anything to members here or, made trades. Infact the members here have been quite supportive. Use the PM feature. It really is that simple. Add a link to your site if you have one, it really is that simple. I may or, may not agree 100% with all the rules here or, any other site I visit. However, I am in no position or, have any interest in starting my own forum.

[martinfan5]

This is a case of, read between the lines.

[Johnny]

It's just soooo exciting.   Not!!!

 

I'll be elsewhere doing something probably a whole lot more interesting on race day.

Plan on doing a lot of model building & fishing on Saturdays and Sundays this year!