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The Wreck


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#21 Longbox55

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 05:38 PM

Restricter plate racing at it's worst combined with a very prevalent  "I'll do anything it takes to win" attitude that too many drivers now have.

Wouldn't be surprised to see the heads of Nascar sitting before Congress soon.

I beleive that some of the "I'll do anything it takes to win" attitude can be blamed as much on the Green-White-Checkers rule as much or possibly even more than restrictor plates. There's been avoidable accidents on non-restrictor plate races caused by that driving attitude combined with a G-W-C finish. Not saying you're wrong, far from it, only that there's other contributing factors.

My personal take is that instead of G-W-C, there needs to be at least 4 laps of Green, plus the White flag, to give the feild a chance to settle in, and to keep those drivers whe just "have to win no matter what" a chance to cool their jets and not do something stupid. Daytona and Talledega are the obvious places to do that type finish at, but also on the short tracks, where a G-W_c finsih isn't even enough racing to make it worthwhile to do it that way.



#22 martinfan5

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 06:03 PM

I beleive that some of the "I'll do anything it takes to win" attitude can be blamed as much on the Green-White-Checkers rule as much or possibly even more than restrictor plates. There's been avoidable accidents on non-restrictor plate races caused by that driving attitude combined with a G-W-C finish. Not saying you're wrong, far from it, only that there's other contributing factors.
My personal take is that instead of G-W-C, there needs to be at least 4 laps of Green, plus the White flag, to give the feild a chance to settle in, and to keep those drivers whe just "have to win no matter what" a chance to cool their jets and not do something stupid. Daytona and Talledega are the obvious places to do that type finish at, but also on the short tracks, where a G-W_c finsih isn't even enough racing to make it worthwhile to do it that way.


But lets remember that what happened today was coming to take the checkered flag, this has nothing to do with the G-W-C, of course race cars drivers will do anything to win, not saying thats a good thing, and its not like this is anything new, all race car drivers from all over the world have at times the will do anything to win attitude, I will agree that the G-W-C only adds to it , to a point

#23 JunkPile

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 06:20 PM

I don't think anybody wants to see a driver or fans injured.  But many, many fans like to see a good wreck.



#24 Longbox55

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 06:32 PM

But lets remember that what happened today was coming to take the checkered flag, this has nothing to do with the G-W-C, of course race cars drivers will do anything to win, not saying thats a good thing, and its not like this is anything new, all race car drivers from all over the world have at times the will do anything to win attitude, I will agree that the G-W-C only adds to it , to a point

Absolutely. I won't disagree with you or Johnny at all on this. It's a combination of things that justs add up to race finishes like this.

I should mention, I didn't actually get to see the race live (working) but heard about it when I got home. The link posted earlier in this thread was the first time I saw the footage. That first lap really looked like they would pull it off without incident. Even most the last lap looked good. And then it all turned to, well, you know. Not the first time we've seen something like this, certainly won't be the last.



#25 martinfan5

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 06:50 PM

Absolutely. I won't disagree with you or Johnny at all on this. It's a combination of things that justs add up to race finishes like this.
I should mention, I didn't actually get to see the race live (working) but heard about it when I got home. The link posted earlier in this thread was the first time I saw the footage. That first lap really looked like they would pull it off without incident. Even most the last lap looked good. And then it all turned to, well, you know. Not the first time we've seen something like this, certainly won't be the last.


You made some valid points about the desire to win, and doing anything to win at all cost, and 99 out of 100 times the results is some torn up race cars, but today, it was different, fans got hurt, but I am not wanting to blame the drivers just yet, I need to go back and watch the wreck to see what really happen. We saw the desired to win all week long, going back to Monday and Tuesday with the Modified and K&N sereis race's battle on the beech on the back stretch, but that was with speeds around 100mph.

There is a fine line when it comes to doing anything to win, and its hard to say what happened today was someone trying to hard to win, I did not see the interview, but the driver that caused the wreck did take the blame, and knows that he is at fault, and the driver was last year Sprint Cup Champion Brad K, again, thats what I am hearing and been reading.

I was in suspense for the last 10 laps, they wrecked every lap, but were able to save it every-time, it was some amazing driving going on, and some great saves as well, but the luck just ran out.



#26 rel14

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 06:53 PM

Cool,, not only was i at the race,, But i was in it,, I can hear some people braggin about,,
There all going to be OK,, last i heard it was 32,, Think about the hot water, and oil all over,,
Lord ya know that burns,,not counting a 700 pound engine bouncing around,,,

#27 martinfan5

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 07:04 PM

Cool,, not only was i at the race,, But i was in it,, I can hear some people braggin about,,
There all going to be OK,, last i heard it was 32,, Think about the hot water, and oil all over,,
Lord ya know that burns,,not counting a 700 pound engine bouncing around,,,


You were in the race , or do you mean you were at the race?

Lets break it down,
14 fans were taken to the in field care center for treatment
12 fans were transported to Halifax Medical center, out of those 12 , 5 were non trauma and not related to the last lap accident, 7 of them were related to last lap wreck, two are in critical condition, and one is a minor
6 fans were transported to Halifax Port Orange Medical center
And 1 fan was transported to one other Hospital with unknown condition,

 



#28 mikemodeler

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 07:12 PM

Lets not forget that the talking heads on TV feed the fire when they talk about "The Big One" at Daytona and Talledega. Earlier this week the talk was about a woman sitting on the pole, after today it will be about safety and the fans getting hurt.

 

As sad and unfortunate as today's event was, it is a part of racing and the risk you take when you buy a ticket. Those injured fans and drivers are in my prayers tonight and I hope tomorrow's race is without any similar incidents.



#29 wrecker388

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 07:22 PM

 

What does that have to do with anything?

 

The guy tried to make a move, and we saw the result. It can happen in any auto race when there are cars on the track jockeying for position. What in the world does the engine technology have to do with it?

Harry is right, I first thought of the flip at Talladega in the 1987 that brought on the restrictor plate.So there obviously weren't any restrictor plates.



#30 cavespeedway

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 07:42 PM

don't blame the track, or the racers,nascar needs to git rid of this green,white,checkered bs. this race should have been over after the big wreck with 5 to go.if a race is 300 miles it's over at 300 miles you dont add miles to create excitement or drama.



#31 wrecker388

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 07:45 PM

don't blame the track, or the racers,nascar needs to git rid of this green,white,checkered bs. this race should have been over after the big wreck with 5 to go.if a race is 300 miles it's over at 300 miles you dont add miles to create excitement or drama.

Yeah, almost every time that there is a G-W-C they always wreck at least one more time.



#32 martinfan5

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 07:48 PM

don't blame the track, or the racers,nascar needs to git rid of this green,white,checkered bs. this race should have been over after the big wreck with 5 to go.if a race is 300 miles it's over at 300 miles you dont add miles to create excitement or drama.

You did not watch the race did you ?,  this was not a Green , White , Checkered incident, this was on the last scheduled lap of the race.

 

The "big one happened on lap 115(5 laps remaining), the race was red flagged , and the race restarted with 3 laps

remaining.

 

The Green , White , Checkered finished is used only when the race is going to go pass the the scheduled number of laps,  and there are three trys at getting the race to finish under green flag conditions,  if at any time the caution comes out on the white flag lap during the G-W-C the race is over, and the winner is who ever is leading at the last scoring loop passed and or video replays showing who was the leader at the that point on the track, at the time of the caution being thrown on the white flag lap


Edited by martinfan5, 23 February 2013 - 07:59 PM.


#33 wrecker388

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 07:49 PM

You did not watch the race did you ?,  this was not a Green , White , Checkered incident, this was on the last schduled lap of the race.

The race should have ended at 4 to go. I was watching and remember the way it use to be without  G-W-C, it just ended. If it wasn't a G-W-C it sure seemed it.


Edited by wrecker388, 23 February 2013 - 07:51 PM.


#34 Guest_Johnny_*

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 07:51 PM

Johnathon, not to argue but Smith admitted to blocking and starting it in his interview and to the dismay of many said he will do the same thing tomorrow if that's what it takes to win.(not exact quote) That sir is disturbing and seems to be a growing attitude in the sport today!

 

I wonder if he knows that his statements make him a very big target for a sharp lawyer?

 

Got a feeling this will be an ugly civil suit in the end.



#35 martinfan5

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 08:03 PM

Johnathon, not to argue but Smith admitted to blocking and starting it in his interview and to the dismay of many said he will do the same thing tomorrow if that's what it takes to win.(not exact quote) That sir is disturbing and seems to be a growing attitude in the sport today!

 

I wonder if he knows that his statements make him a very big target for a sharp lawyer?

 

Got a feeling this will be an ugly civil suit in the end.

You are right,  when I posted that, I had not went backed and looked at the wreck,  you are right, that he took the blame, I skipped a lot of the driver interviews, and I remember reading that online or twitter that Brad K took the blame, I was wrong on that one ;)  . I was trying to catch up on what was going on, as I was about an hour and a half behind in watching the race, so by the time I got to end, it was already long over



#36 martinfan5

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 08:07 PM

The race should have ended at 4 to go. I was watching and remember the way it use to be without  G-W-C, it just ended. If it wasn't a G-W-C it sure seemed it.

The GWC has nothing to do with what happend today, and why would the race end 4 laps early for a wreck?, no one was hurt in that wreck.

 

So are saying that anytime a wreck happens, the race should be called at that point? regardless if its on lap 5 or 495,  and no, it never use to be that way, NASCAR has for the most part always let the race go to the its schedule distance.

 

I understand it may seem like it was GWC, but no, it was one more lap then a GWC ;)

 

Here is an update on the two fans that were in critical condtion, this is from Speed channel twitter feed

NASCAR on SPEED@NASCARonSPEED

Reports say 2 fans in critical condition have now been stabilized w/ no life-threatening injuries. More»@SPEEDCenter, 8:30a ET. #NASCAR


Edited by martinfan5, 23 February 2013 - 08:26 PM.


#37 JMChladek

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 08:40 PM

I've had a growing fear something like this might happen since April 2009 when Edwards' car got catapulted into the catch fencing at Talladega. This tight pack BLAH_BLAH_BLAH_BLAH really sucks big rocks IMHO because we currently have the situation where one car starts to spin and if a second and third (and in some cases a fourth) car hits it right, it IS going airborne. I remember Bodine's truck crash as well since I caught the tail end of it live when watching it on TV and I knew it was bad when the announcer said "we'll be back in a moment" with a slightly choked up voice. A lot of us thought Geoff had died that day. Fortunately he didn't.

 

The old crashes from before restrictor plates were mainly due to one car starting to go backwards and the body acting like an airplane wing, picking up the car and flipping it. The roof flaps have more or less made that obsolete these days as about the only time a single car gets airborne is because it hits a rut in the grass. So as I see it, IF something can be found to get the cars to separate so you don't have a tight pack chain reaction crash like this (or at least lesson the likelihood of it) so much the better.



#38 Chas SCR

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 09:08 PM

Are you guys really kidding me and saying the growing attitude in the sport today is not the same from day one? Get real, if you think this can not happen the same way at 100mph as it did at 200 then you are kidding your self the same. This week there has now been 4 cars ended up in stands from East Bay on the dirt all they way up the coast line to Daytona now.

 

It will not change a thing as this was just a one of them type stuff every thing did there jobs and the bad thing is the tethers that was to hold the wheel on the frame was with the frame in some ones lap. The cars are built for safty of the drivers and one of the bad things is going to the bump stop chassis design this also has a Z frame at the front of the fire wall. This does not help in making a car safe compare to the older sold straight frame from the firewall out. Things are going to happen and if you do not like it or think it will not happen then you need to quit watching it or thinking about it.



#39 Psychographic

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 01:13 AM

I don't understand why blocking is allowed. It's not racing and it's dangerous. I've  got so much more to say about this, but I'm not getting too involved with another conflict thread.

 

From the stands.

 

 

Why is this in the NASCAR MODEL section and not the general section? It has nothing to do with models.


Edited by Psychographic, 24 February 2013 - 01:17 AM.


#40 2002p51

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 02:55 AM

 

What does that have to do with anything?

 

The guy tried to make a move, and we saw the result. It can happen in any auto race when there are cars on the track jockeying for position. What in the world does the engine technology have to do with it?

 

Harry, the restrictor plates keep the cars bunched up because there's no more throttle response left to give drivers the ability to get away from each other. They all have to drive wide open and if they lift even the slightest amount, they loose so much momentum that it takes several laps to get back where they were.

 

The problem is that without some sort of engine restriction these guys would be doing over 220 mph. So what do you do?

 

Here are pictures of the aftermath, there are pics that show some of the injured fans and some blood on the steps/seats

http://www.gettyimag...lProduct=Sport#

 

As a thirty year race photographer, I would not have shot some of those photos, and I sure as heck wouldn't have published them. No respect, no class, and very poor ethics.

 

Thank you Martinfan5 for clearing up most of the misinformation in this thread.

 

As for my take, there is no way you can build a race track that is 100% safe for the fans no matter what you do. The next time you are at a major race track read the fine print on the back of your ticket. Basically it says that we're glad you here but you should know that bad stuff can happen to you here and you accept that possibility just by buying this ticket.

 

There are 2-1/2 miles of catch fence around that track and Larson's car found that one 3 foot section, the crossover gate, that was the weakest. What are the odds? Had the car hit almost anywhere else, the damage and injury would have been much less.

 

Believe it or not the catch fence in this instance did it's job. The car, or at least most of it's mass, was stopped and projected back down on to the track.The engine and most of the front clip were stopped right at the fence, in the "buffer zone" between the fence and the first row of seats where spectators are not allowed to stand. Sure that one tire and hub assembly flew up 7 or 8 rows and lots of little pieces of debris and hot fluids injured people. But think of what it might have been like if that fence was not as well designed and strong as it was. We'd be talking about multiple fatalities this morning instead of recoverable injuries. And don't take this as my making light of the gravity of the situation, because I'm not. I'm just trying to inject a little perspective.

 

It sounds cliche, but this really was a freak, unpredictable event that nobody could have planned for. NASCAR, the race track, and the designers of the cars, walls, and fences, have done everything possible to prevent a serious accident like this. Or at least to minimize the result. But in spite of their best efforts, the old saying the "Stuff Happens" is relevant. Stuff happens and stuff will always happen.