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Why aren't all model kits awesome?


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#181 Casey

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 11:35 AM

 

Silver engine is from the 2006 1/25 Revell Dodge Magnum SRT8. Can't be a V-10, as it's only got 4 exhaust ports per side and the instructions state it's a "6.1liter Hemi".

 

Sorry, I left out the  :D , as my comment was stated in jest. It does look about right for V-10 length, at least compared to the V-8 above it.

 

It comes back to the "How close to perfect do you want it to be?" idea, which always reminds me of: "Speed costs money. How fast do you want it it be?"

 

How perfect a kit do you want, and how much are you willing to pay for it? Unfortunately for us, it really doesn't matter, as we are in no position to either create our own mass-produced kit by the thousands nor able to directly influence a company such as Revell as far as kit design and production is concerned. That puts the burden of perfecting the kit on ourselves, once we buy the kit and it's in our hands. The sliding scale of "acceptable error" is different for each company, each model, and each customer/end user, so can we realistically expect a narrow range which all would agree upon?  -_-

 

I understand Brett's "fudging" comment, and while it goes against the "true to scale" mentality to increase the size of an engine so it appears to be in better proportion with the rest of the kit, sometimes it's in the best interest of the business to do so. Maybe not other businesses, maybe not even the business in question's direct competitors, but for the business making the decision, it might be, even if it's for strictly monetary reasons.



#182 Ace-Garageguy

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 11:40 AM

Sorry, but what percentage is "ALL"? Last time I checked it was 100%.

 

 

My phrase "All the parts in the same scale" DOES NOT MEAN THE SAME THING AS YOUR PHRASE "100% dead-nuts accurate", now does it ? Come on, does it ? Really ?


Edited by Ace-Garageguy, 09 March 2013 - 11:42 AM.


#183 Ace-Garageguy

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 11:43 AM

I guess I'm just too stupid to grasp the concept that doing something wrong is the better business decision.



#184 Art Anderson

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 11:43 AM

IT DOESN'T TAKE ANY LONGER TO MEASURE CORRECTLY THAN IT DOES TO MEASURE WRONG. ECONOMICS IS NOT THE ISSUE. IT'S SLOPPINESS, PURE AND SIMPLE.

 

EXPLAIN TO ME HOW A 4" DISCREPANCY IN THE LENGTH OF AN ENGINE HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH ECONOMICS, OR BINOCULAR VISION.

Uh, if you recall, I made that comment in relation to shapes and contours.

 

Art



#185 Ace-Garageguy

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 11:52 AM

Uh, if you recall, I made that comment in relation to shapes and contours.

 

Art

 

 

Every time I bring up the topic of GROSS, un-acceptable in-accuracies, the topic goes off in the direction of "artistic license", "fooling the eye", "ecomomics of business", etc. etc. I was responding to the general lack of dealing with the topic I was stressing, which for some reason a lot of folks refuse to acknowledge.

 

Minor in-accuracies and tooling-necessities are fine. I have to make how-good-is-good-enough decisions for my own work, juggling multiple factors, daily, hourly. I get it. If I make a 4" mistake, that's not good-enough, and it shouldn't be good-enough anywhere.

 

As it stands, I've got an engine from the Dodge Magnum kit that's useless to me, because in my tiny little myopic rivet-counter mind, it's trash and I won't use it in anything. I build SCALE models, or pretty damm close. SO, I'll have second and third thoughts about ever buying a Revell release again. I paid twenty-something bucks for the damm kit, which said it was 1/25 scale. They lied. Only some of it is.


Edited by Ace-Garageguy, 09 March 2013 - 11:59 AM.


#186 Casey

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 12:10 PM

Every time I bring up the topic of GROSS, un-acceptable in-accuracies, the topic goes off in the direction of "artistic license", "fooling the eye", "ecomomics of business", etc. etc. I was responding to the general lack of dealing with the topic I was stressing, which for some reason a lot of folks refuse to acknowledge.

 

I think (gosh I HOPE!) we all would agree that gross inaccuracies are something we all agree should not be acceptable in a bi-scale car kit, and I will use Monogram's 1/24 scale '69 Camaro Z/28 as the whipping boy in this case:

 

Mono69StreetCamaro-1.jpg

 

 

Nobody can honestly deny the body in this kit is innaccurate. Nobody. It's fact. That said, once we get past the gross inaccuracies, it's gets tricky, and I think that gray area is where we're at in this discussion. When it comes to things like the roof crown on the Moebius '56 Chrysler 300B, where does that fall for each of us on the acceptability scale?



#187 Ace-Garageguy

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 12:24 PM

If the box-art photo of that poor little Camaro is accurate, in MY mind, it's about as good as a Palmer kit, as far as building a scale-model of the real car goes. I can also see it could be useful as the basis of a custom, a funny-car, something....but not as a scale-model of a production Camaro.

 

And I'm sure it's just fine for a lot of average, casual modelers.

 

But I think if we, as the more knowledgeable builders and critics of kits, if we fail to harp on glaring errors when they're made, with the hope that someone in the management loop is listening, we're doing a dis-service to the hobby and the industry.


Edited by Ace-Garageguy, 09 March 2013 - 02:27 PM.


#188 Greg Myers

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 12:34 PM

If the box-art photo of that poor little Camaro is accurate, in MY mind, it's about as good as a Palmer kit, as far as building a scale-model of the real car goes. I can also see it could be useful as the basis of a custom, a funny-car, something....but not as a scale-model of a production Camaro.

 

And I'm sure it's just fine for a lot of average, casual modelers.

 

But I think if we, as the more knowledgeable builders and critics of kits, fail to harp on glaring errors when they're made, with the hope that someone in the management loop is listening, we're doing a dis-service to the hobby and the industry.

and ourselves.



#189 Craig Irwin

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 01:25 PM

When I first got back into modeling about 25 years ago the first 2 models I bought were the Monogram 69 Camaro and 56 Chevy because I had owned actual ones. Both were so inacurate I put them back into the box unbuilt. It's only Revells new 69 Camaro comming out that talked me into a second try in modeling. Wrong don't make it with me, but I have improved to where I can fix most things that bother me.



#190 MAGNUM4342

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 01:30 PM

Wow! If the pic of that Camaro is accurate it looks to me almost as if it were photographed through a fisheye lens. With the exception of a huge honkin blower thru the hood it could almost be a zinger!



#191 Brett Barrow

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 01:53 PM

 

 

Every time I bring up the topic of GROSS, un-acceptable in-accuracies, the topic goes off in the direction of "artistic license", "fooling the eye", "ecomomics of business", etc. etc. I was responding to the general lack of dealing with the topic I was stressing, which for some reason a lot of folks refuse to acknowledge.

 

Minor in-accuracies and tooling-necessities are fine. I have to make how-good-is-good-enough decisions for my own work, juggling multiple factors, daily, hourly. I get it. If I make a 4" mistake, that's not good-enough, and it shouldn't be good-enough anywhere.

 

As it stands, I've got an engine from the Dodge Magnum kit that's useless to me, because in my tiny little myopic rivet-counter mind, it's trash and I won't use it in anything. I build SCALE models, or pretty damm close. SO, I'll have second and third thoughts about ever buying a Revell release again. I paid twenty-something bucks for the damm kit, which said it was 1/25 scale. They lied. Only some of it is.

What do you want me to do?  I know Ed Sexton at Revell, head of R&D, you want me to find out who was responsible for that error in the Magnum kit and see that they're properly flogged for the mistake?  

 

Seriously, you've got people in the business trying to explain the business side of things.  Sorry if that's not good enough for you. I just sell these things for a living, sorry if the folks who actually are employed in the industry don't take it as seriously as you do.

 

You want to point out that the emperor has no clothes? Go ahead. Just don't get pissed off when 99.9% of the rest of the board says "we know that and we don't care".



#192 Greg Myers

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 02:05 PM

Brett, maybe if you'd tone it down a bit. You come across as a know it all. Give a little. There are others here that have been in this hobby a long time in one from or another with just the same knowledge and expertise as you purport to have. ;)



#193 lordairgtar

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 02:09 PM

 

Stamp and coin collecting are hardly "dead or dying" hobbies. They're probably among the most popular hobbies in the world.

 

Collecting dust, on the other hand... not a lot of people into that, but as far as cheap hobbies go, you can't beat it!

Or saving ear wax



#194 Craig Irwin

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 02:15 PM

Think about Revells 70 AAR 'Cuda, two botched attempts that were torn apart on the forums and in print. Finaly we get an all new tool all of these years later. I can only guess that "poor sales" of a subject that should have done well may have inspired Revell to try again.


Edited by Craig Irwin, 09 March 2013 - 02:16 PM.


#195 lordairgtar

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 02:31 PM

But wouldn't it be kinda cool to see an Abrams tank in NASCAR livery, or a B-58 in Reno air race markings?  I remember an article in Car Modeler waaaayy back in which a 1/32 Monogram Jeep kit was converted into an articulated vehicle; two halves with a common driveshaft.  One of the pictures showed the finished model, in civilian colors with two occupants, towing  the kit-supplied 37MM anti-tank gun.  The caption read something like: "Two true sportsman out for the hunt".  Maybe not politically correct but somewhat amusing.

 

Along those lines (and inspired to some degree by my reading of "alternative history"), I have built in my head an F-14 in early WWII US Navy colors and a P-47 in current air superiority colors- just because I can and I think it would be cool.  But I do build military subjects and do try to keep them as accurate as possible without suffering a brain hemmorhage or whatever else might happen from too much research.

 

Also, I would venture to opine that those who build 1/43 scale automotive subjects lean toward the historically accurate, much like most military modelers.

Aurora did just that. They marketed their auto kits with WWII markings. I remember building the jaguar with Spitfire type markings and camo paint.



#196 Ace-Garageguy

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 02:43 PM

Think about Revells 70 AAR 'Cuda, two botched attempts that were torn apart on the forums and in print. Finaly we get an all new tool all of these years later. I can only guess that "poor sales" of a subject that should have done well may have inspired Revell to try again.

 

Yeah. So the smart money is to get it pretty close the first time, get a strong seller from the get-go, and not HAVE to re-tool down the road when you can capitalize on GOOD tooling for the re-issues.

 

I LIKE Revell. I LIKE the recent '50 Olds. Is there stuff wrong with it? Yup. Is it plenty good-enough to make an outstanding model without having to completely re-engineer it? Yup. Close enough. There are minor problems with the '09 Challenger too, but it's a fine kit, again plenty good-enough to make a beautiful, no-excuses model. Get them all that good, I'll shut up.

 

You have to remember, I'm the guy who still likes the old Revell Model A kit (woody, sedan, pickups, etc.) that a lot of builders complain about for flash and fiddly assembly. None of that bothers me, because if you build it carefully, it's a pretty damm fine looking model (every version) and accurately gives the impression of the real thing. The engine bay is scaled correctly, so you can do engine swaps just like the real deal. The engine itself is scaled correctly, so it works in other builds the way it should. That's all I think we deserve.



#197 Casey

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 02:43 PM

Brett, maybe if you'd tone it down a bit. You come across as a know it all.

 

I can vouch for the fact Brett has inside info very few of us (save for maybe MrKnowItAll and John G from Round2, who are both members here) would ever know or have access to, and I don't think he's coming across as a KIA-- he simply knows the facts.



#198 Ace-Garageguy

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 02:53 PM

What do you want me to do?  I know Ed Sexton at Revell, head of R&D, you want me to find out who was responsible for that error in the Magnum kit and see that they're properly flogged for the mistake?  

 

Seriously, you've got people in the business trying to explain the business side of things.  Sorry if that's not good enough for you. I just sell these things for a living, sorry if the folks who actually are employed in the industry don't take it as seriously as you do.

 

You want to point out that the emperor has no clothes? Go ahead. Just don't get pissed off when". 99.9% of the rest of the board says "we know that and we don't care

 

Almost 200 posts on this thread because "99.9% of the rest of the board says "we know that and we don't care"" ?? Interesting theory.


Edited by Ace-Garageguy, 09 March 2013 - 03:34 PM.


#199 Craig Irwin

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 03:01 PM

 

Yeah. So the smart money is to get it pretty close the first time, get a strong seller from the get-go, and not HAVE to re-tool down the road when you can capitalize on GOOD tooling for the re-issues.

 

I

 

Exactly. But Revellogram knew that doing an out of proportion body to fit a chassis with the wrong wheelbase and having to fudge everything else to fit was wrong. They expeced it to sell anyway. I think the model companys under estimate how serious model car builders can be.



#200 Casey

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 03:08 PM

 

Exactly. But Revellogram knew that doing an out of proportion body to fit a chassis with the wrong wheelbase and having to fudge everything else to fit was wrong. They expeced it to sell anyway. I think the model companys under estimate how serious model car builders can be.

 

That kit definitely falls under the "gross error" category, should never have proceeded, and is probably Revell's biggest blunder in 25+ years. The new '70 Hemi 'Cuda should win a few jilted modelers back over to their side though.

 

In Revell's defense, they did correct the "chopped" roof on the Pro Modeler '69 Charger R/T kit soon after it was first released, so they do sometimes fix things, but not everything.