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People recasting stuff that you mastered without your permission


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#1 spkgibson

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 05:26 AM

I was just looking on feepay, And see the '72 Demon grill I mastered for the kit by Missing Link....Know the question I have is....Once you  are given credit for the masters, Don't you have the rights to them?....To me I find that being a thief....As I put all the work into the parts....Was giving credit for it....And now I'm seeing someone recasting it ,And trying to make money off of my work ....Can anyone enlighten me on this? I don't want to see business taking away from the resin casters out there that are reputable ....And all the hard work these people do for us.....The only person I want to see selling my stuff I master...Is the people  I send it to....Not second hand junk that some yahoo tries to make a quick buck off.



#2 dimaxion

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 06:18 AM

Although I totally agree with you Steve , this is the problem . The Vehicle Designers have the same claim to their designs and do Copy Rite these . GM is a prime example of exercising these rights . From what I read here ; GM stopped Shawn Carpenter from making old designs they 'own' . This could worsen and I think it is . GM cannot (IMHO) dump less than quality products on Consumers like in the old days . This is reflected in their sales . So , they scramble to make money where they can . Did you ever notice the "Trademark GM , Ford MoCo , Chrysler LLC. ect. on the boxes . This means licensing is being paid for : no effort on their part ? Sound familiar ? These Corporations won't even provide any developmental support as it is reported by Model Car Makers . Just : 'hand me the monies !" . To be fair : Chrysler does open it's archives and Museums for research . 

    Resin Casting , is this a place us Modelers and Resin Casters - Aftermarket Suppliers want regulations ? Exclusive regulation and properity rights ? Followed by more Taxes ? None for me thanks . 

     Some (many) items are here and then gone . Someone else makes them from someone else's work ? Not right indeed ? This has caused much Strife in our small Community . Not fair and un-scrupulos and an act of theft . How would you suggest we as a Community do this without attracting the attention of the 1:! makers . Quite frankly , I don't see another route beside this site and others just like it  to keep ourselves honest . I am open to suggestion . I , for one , don't want to see Government and Lawyers regulating this or any Hobby ! Just look at, IMHO what Sewer our Reps and Lawyers have us in today !  Thanx ..



#3 Alan

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 06:31 AM

Steve,

Nothing you can do about it. The ONLY way is to keep it to yourself. I resin cast my own masters as well, and I only share with friends I trust.

Sad to say, but if your stuff is good and you put it out there on auction sites or the WWW, you better be prepared to take what is enevitable ........



#4 kalbert

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 06:43 AM

I think you do have rights to it, but the problem is pursing them would be costly and time consuming and difficult to prove and at the end of the day would you be better for doing it? It sucks I know but it's a hard thing to pursue beyond contacting the seller and asking for a gentlemens agreement to not sell them, give credit where credit is due when they are sold, or flip you a little royalty fee there's not a lot that can be done reasonably.

 

I admit I copy parts from time to time, but I do so for my own personal use and would never sell them or try to pass them off as my own. I always include reference to where the part originated. Does that make it ok? Gad I don't know, but it makes me feel like I at least tried to be honest about it.



#5 Ben

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 06:46 AM

I feel the exact same way you do Steve! That is MY part, I made it from scratch! I don't care if it is a miniature copy of the real thing, I made it SMALLER which is a big change from the real thing. I only give my masters to one or two casters at the most and they have to be good at what they do. The part they produce is a reflection of my modeling capabilities. If they cast it poorly, the person buying it is going to think the master looked that way. Unfortunatly, there's nothing we can do about it if someone else does decide to buy a copy of our master and start casting it themselves. I just make it a point to let everyone know that my parts are only sold from the casters I specify.


Edited by Ben, 23 March 2013 - 06:54 AM.


#6 Chief Joseph

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 06:53 AM

For every one guy who has the talent to scratch build parts for a model, there are 10 guys who can go to Hobby Lobby, buy a cheap resin casting kit, make crappy copies of someone else's work, and sell the copies on eBay.

Steve, this a hard lesson that everyone in the aftermarket learns. You may have made that part, but the visual appearance of that part belongs to Chrysler. You have no right to reproduce it whatsoever unless you purchase the right from Chrysler. That pond scum who is selling a recast of your part is the worst form of life in the scale modeling hobby, but you have no legal right to stop him. In the modeling community, the best we can do is publicize the fact that your work is being recast and name the recaster. With that comes a responsibility-- you must provide proof that your piece has been recast. Sometimes that's easy and sometimes it isn't. The easiest way to show proof is to buy one of the parts, compare it to your original, and publish that comparison on the forums. Typical punishment for someone who is guilty of recasting is banishment from the online forums-- big whoop, because there's always eBay.

A friend of mine runs a garage kit company and he only does models of original works where he secures the rights from the original artists. If anyone tries to recast his models, he has legal recourse. Someone making a statue of Batman or a grille for a '72 Demon has no legal rights, just moral rights to their effort and love of the craft.

Edited by Chief Joseph, 23 March 2013 - 06:56 AM.


#7 Craig Irwin

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 08:41 AM

Was it in fact a copy of your work? I bought a resin 72 Demon kit years ago from R&R, and I would have thought what I have is a copy of a kit part.

 

I also find it interesting that car manufacturers can stop a little resin caster from making model parts, but can't stop aftermarket companys from making body parts for 1:1 cars.



#8 Ace-Garageguy

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:00 AM

It bites that there are always folks willing to appropriate someone else's work to make a quick and easy buck, but that's the way it is. There's a lot more laziness and theft than hard work, skill and talent.

 

And, I personally feel there should be a specific clause in the copyright laws dealing with the production of scale models, exempting low-production aftermarket craftsman (who master their OWN tooling, as you have) but to the best of my knowledge there isn't.

 

You CAN make customized parts that are significantly modified and slip through the cracks. The work is then your OWN design, and is recognized as such in patent and trademark law.

 

Also, sometimes, addressing a problem aggressively and in the open can work to advantage (it can also open a can of worms). If a small-volume resin-caster were to approach a car manufacturer asking for permission to make scale parts, royalty-free or with a royalty on a per-part basis that reflected the miniscule profits the resin guys make, it would be interesting to see what happens.

 

Being a factory-authorized resin producer of the part in question, then you WOULD have legal recourse to stop infringement on your work.



#9 MAGNUM4342

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:09 AM

This time the "J"'s have it. John and Joseph are both right and I can't state it any better. Getting ready to unviel my own parts company I have had to wrestle all month with three things.

1. Do I open a mainstream webpage...or do I operate like most of the aftermarketers these days and go low profile using a Fotki or Photobucket page to showcase my wares?

2. What do I do about certain parts that are being produced elsewhere as well? Do I sally forth and cast these hubcaps I have on hand, knowing full well they have been recast by another company and I risk persecution at the hands of those that think I copied thiers?

3. Articles like this popping up. Steve you have every right to be upset and voice that, but there was also an article in Q&A started just this week about the legalities of casting parts. The more articles like this that show up on google and bing, the more attention is called to the 'cottages' that provide these pieces. The more attention is called the more Chrysler, GM, Ford etc. will sit up and take notice. Eventually the landslide will bring you down and the aftermarket companies will suffer. This is why Slixx stopped doing NASCAR decals a few years back. As soon as NASCAR's licensing department got wind, the fees generated by the get-out-of-jail-free card were too exhorbitant and the company could no longer sustain production.

 

Steve I sympathise, I really do. I have spent the last few days fleshing out an all new 1970 Charger front bumper and filler set that I think is as good or better than anyone elses. The moment I sell the first one, I am in danger of not only being spotted by Dodge corporation, but of being ripped off in a copycast or design, by some jackamo out there with a twenty dollar Hobby Lobby casting kit. It's the nature of the beast.

Engrave your name and date of creation? They'll fill it in. Photograph, date and document the design? Fodder for Chrysler's lawyers. It's a half win/half win situation at best and we have to take and suffer with whatever we can make out of it until the market for our version has dried up.

 

When someone suggested Demon parts in my other thread, I let it slide by because I knew there were others out there already. There are other things I can do. One day i'll look closer at it and if I can do it better (and I usually can) I will.



#10 spkgibson

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:47 AM

When you do masters ....I always put a very small hair like flaw that's unnoticed unless you really look hard,.....Plus looking at the grill.  l am 100% positive its a copy of the one I made......I'm looking out for you resin guys doing all the work.....I'm just waiting to see what else is done like this.....Now when the 71' Demon comes back.....And Missing Link does decide to rerelease the '72 bumper/grill....Well their sales may suffer because of this kind of stuff.....I put alot of hours into that part.....And once again....One person should be casting the parts. Unless giving permission saying otherwise..



#11 spkgibson

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:00 AM

Was it in fact a copy of your work? I bought a resin 72 Demon kit years ago from R&R, and I would have thought what I have is a copy of a kit part.

 

I also find it interesting that car manufacturers can stop a little resin caster from making model parts, but can't stop aftermarket companys from making body parts for 1:1 cars.

The R&R kit is a '71, But even they put copyrights in the kits they produce, example Team R&R 1994 in a '70 Dart kit I own.



#12 Ju Ju

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:39 AM

do you or missing link have permission or copyright from Chrysler corporation to make that part in the first place ?


Edited by Ju Ju, 23 March 2013 - 11:42 AM.


#13 spkgibson

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:44 AM

do you or missing link have permission or copyright from Chrysler corporation to make that to make that part in the first place ?

No but neither does a lot of people making resin parts.....But missing the point....I don't want some moron stealing my work. 


Edited by spkgibson, 23 March 2013 - 11:45 AM.


#14 Ju Ju

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:47 AM

No but neither does a lot of people making resin parts.....But missing the point....I don't want some moron stealing my work. 

maybe that is how Chrysler looks at it too ? just saying....... ;)



#15 Sport Suburban

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:21 PM

I have a 72 Demon kit from AFX-N-Scale that I bought 5 years ago. Now there kit is a 71 body with the newer AMT 71 Duster engine compartment and a 72 grill. It is not the best but does it predate yours and could they say you stole theirs?

I'm not saying you did, but how does anyone prove that they alone made the parts and that no one else has the right to do so?

#16 Greg Wann

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:29 PM

I wonder what THE MODEL CAR GARAGE does about their photo etch copies?  Or Modelhaus for that matter?



#17 spkgibson

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:32 PM

I have a 72 Demon kit from AFX-N-Scale that I bought 5 years ago. Now there kit is a 71 body with the newer AMT 71 Duster engine compartment and a 72 grill. It is not the best but does it predate yours and could they say you stole theirs?

I'm not saying you did, but how does anyone prove that they alone made the parts and that no one else has the right to do so?

My '72 grill was made from an original MPC '71 grill a '67 Toronado custom grill....And the marker lights were made up of 14 pieces....Of styrene strips and sheet plastic....And I also added four horizontal lines in the Toronado grill.....So no I didn't steal the pile they call a '72 Demon grill....Mine is 80% scratchbuilt. And looks nothing like the AFX PART.


Edited by spkgibson, 23 March 2013 - 12:34 PM.


#18 MAGNUM4342

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:41 PM

Let's not get into a peeing match boys. Bottom line is you won't find a licensed resin piece anywhere.



#19 Ju Ju

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 02:59 PM

wasn't it missing link that made the stock hood, grill, bench seat and dog dish wheels and hub caps for the 69 nova

and then revell came along and copied all those parts ?  :lol:  :P



#20 jeffb

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 03:34 PM

only thing we can do as quality casters is wait out the fly by nighters... eventually they will fail..