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People recasting stuff that you mastered without your permission


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#21 Sport Suburban

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 03:42 PM

My '72 grill was made from an original MPC '71 grill a '67 Toronado custom grill....And the marker lights were made up of 14 pieces....Of styrene strips and sheet plastic....And I also added four horizontal lines in the Toronado grill.....So no I didn't steal the pile they call a '72 Demon grill....Mine is 80% scratchbuilt. And looks nothing like the AFX PART.


I knew you didn't, But my point was that because AFX had a kit out before yours and you made a better one. Do they have a right to be upset with you? Legally the whole resin section of our hobbie is a copyrite nightmare. I would be shocked if anything was actually pattented or copyrited.

So Shawn Carpenter has been told to stop making stuff, Has anyone else? Has Modelhaus had any trouble selling copies of promo and kit parts? I would guess 90% of their stuff is direct unmodified parts.

#22 mikemodeler

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 03:50 AM

only thing we can do as quality casters is wait out the fly by nighters... eventually they will fail..

 

True words there Jeff, but frustrating nonetheless when a poorly copied part is competing with your higher quality part and as a whole, modelers are a cheap bunch!

 

To Steve's original post, once you let that master out of your control, what happens to it is not up to you or the resin caster you sent it to, as you have found out.



#23 gtx6970

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 04:22 AM

Unless you have it trademarked ( even then it may not matter)  the moment something gets released to the general public you open it up to be copied by anyone / any time.

 

Is it right ? no, but it's a fact.



#24 southpier

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 04:32 AM

maybe that is how Chrysler looks at it too ? just saying....... ;)

 

 

this



#25 Abell82

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:32 AM

I was looking on feepay to see what your talking about....I can't/ didn't /don't.... it's not there.

 

So my first question... is/or ..was it a recast or someone selling a Missing Link part they didn't need?

 

Next would "marking" a resin piece be good or bad?? If the part is recast, the mark is still there,

There would be arguments ...this piece is defective, it has your mark..... Not my product.... has your mark....

 

Besides people complain in droves about the Manufacturers marks from AMT and Revell .

Imagine how HUGE their panties would bunch when resin casters began "marking" their products.



#26 Ace-Garageguy

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 08:18 AM

I have designed and built 1:1 aftermarket fiberglass custom parts (the masters, tooling and the parts themselves) for many years. My parts were loosely BASED on production parts and attached like production parts, so there was no copyright infringement issue. Either I (or the client I was working for) owned the copyrights. In MANY cases, my original parts were soon copied by thieving slop-jockies who were incapable of producing an original anything, but drove me out of the market because I couldn't compete cost-wise with pirated, warped junk (made from bottom-of-the-barrel resin in sloppy splash-molds taken from my parts) that didn't fit.

 

I've tried molding in a logo or an intentional mark of some kind, but that's easily filled with bondo before a pirated mold is made, and doesn't show up in a part afterwards. The only remedy I ever found remotely helpful was to laminate a business card under the last layer of glass on the inside...it would show enough to be readable, and wasn't easily duplicated by counterfeiters. We've sent out lots of 'cease-and-desist' letters, and even received some nanny-nanny-boo-boo, what-are-you-going-to-do-about-it responses. I finally got sick and tired of the whole game, and quit.

 

The only stuff I'll make these days is generally either too complicated or has too limited a market for anyone to bother copying.


Edited by Ace-Garageguy, 24 March 2013 - 02:47 PM.


#27 spkgibson

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 01:06 PM

 sorry....I'm a complete moron by getting upset over some counterfeit part of my work....I seen it on there....And so did the person I sent the parts to...But I'm wrong.....But what do I know....I spent the time making the thing......FORGET IT.



#28 1320wayne

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 01:37 PM

The bottom line here is in the hopes that we as model builders/hobbyists follow some sort of gentlemans rule in regards to not treading on exploiting someone elses hard work by making financial gains at selling others hard work without permission.

There really is no feasible way to trademark any "masters" work done when it comes to resin casting. I have been doing masters for other resin casters for many years, from simple parts to full bodies. I put a lot of hard work into everything that I do and even though it becomes very frustrating when someone else decides to take your work and claim it as their own there is no recourse against that person other than possibly making their ethics (or lack thereof) known to others such as on a public forum like this. From there it shouldn't take long for said person to develop a negative reputation and their future business dealings start to dwindle. However, when it comes to people selling on places like Ebay it becomes harder to discredit the seller as their business potential has a much larger customer base.

 

All I can add is that even though I have had it happen to me a few times you will eventually get past the the frustration and most likely the person that "stole your work" will fade away a short time later.



#29 Dave Van

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 01:47 PM

Welcome to the club. My stuff is copies all the time....and sold for more than mine and the quality is what I call 'junk'. 

But recourse....not much at this level........



#30 Greg Myers

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 02:37 PM

So someone makes a copy of your copy and you're crying about it ? No license/copy right no recourse.



#31 Ace-Garageguy

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 02:51 PM

 sorry....I'm a complete moron by getting upset over some counterfeit part of my work....I seen it on there....And so did the person I sent the parts to...But I'm wrong.....But what do I know....I spent the time making the thing......FORGET IT.

 

 

I understand entirely why you're upset, but there's probably nothing you can do about it. Ebay DOES have a "report this item" button, so if you're sure someone is ripping you off, you could try that.



#32 MAGNUM4342

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 03:10 PM

So someone makes a copy of your copy and you're crying about it ? No license/copy right no recourse.

Nooooooo, he's upset that someone has ripped off his original sculpt.



#33 mikemodeler

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:22 AM

 sorry....I'm a complete moron by getting upset over some counterfeit part of my work....I seen it on there....And so did the person I sent the parts to...But I'm wrong.....But what do I know....I spent the time making the thing......FORGET IT.

Steve,

Understand the frustration but keep in mind that even with a patent on a product, someone could change your design ever so slightly and get away with it.  My wife and I developed a couple of consumer household items and spent some $$$ on getting patents only to be told later that our protection was limited  if someone wanted to imitate our product.

 

For what it is worth, consider it flattery that someone copied your hard work. Doesn't make it easier to accept, but you have made us aware that there are poor copies out there and we shouldn't confuse them with yours.



#34 spkgibson

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:25 AM

Nooooooo, he's upset that someone has ripped off his original sculpt.

And I pulled the plug on it...So anyone who wants a '72 Demon grill .....Ask Kevin at Missing Link....If they still make them.....I have a 73 Dart Sport grill  in the works....And also a 73 Plymouth Scamp....So if you want to see them cast....Be nice......I am sure a few would be willing to cast them for me.....



#35 MAGNUM4342

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 04:42 AM

And I pulled the plug on it...So anyone who wants a '72 Demon grill .....Ask Kevin at Missing Link....If they still make them.....I have a 73 Dart Sport grill  in the works....And also a 73 Plymouth Scamp....So if you want to see them cast....Be nice......I am sure a few would be willing to cast them for me.....

"Ahem...cough,cough." :rolleyes: 



#36 sjordan2

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 06:30 AM

All copyright issues aside for this discussion (but they still pertain), who paid you for the part you made? Missing Link? 

 

If so, did they give you a purchase order? Did the purchase order state that you were doing Work Made for Hire?

 

My point is, if any or all of that is true, Missing Link would own the rights to the part you made, and the ball's in their court. However, just like any other creative work, you would have the right, ahead of doing the work, to tell them you wanted to retain ownership and cross out the "Work Made for Hire" clause with their agreement and initials. But that requires negotiating up front.

 

Don't start commissioned work without a P.O. that outlines the terms of the agreement. It's a binding contract. You can get standard forms.


Edited by sjordan2, 25 March 2013 - 06:31 AM.


#37 mr68gts

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 07:13 AM

I've bought resin and casted it before but soley for my own use. I bought a BBC from a known builder who's doing copies of peoples work in bondo. I cleaned up the casting I bought and modified it abit to my tastes and now have a mold of a 1/16 chevy BB. Will I sell them? nope. Not mine to sell. WIll I use them? you betcha!!!! If anyone asked me where I got it I would freely tell them, but I also know where the original resin one came from (Ron Andrews in this case) and the bondo one after that. I would also tell them to get one from Ron Andrews. (Or actually now I'd tell them to buy on from Mark J since his is the best to date) The only reason for me to do something of this nature is because at some point I will need multiples of them. I'm not out to make a buck. When Joe went out of buisiness (Fremont Racing) I made sure to get back my master for the Malco Gasser. I didn't want anyone using the "Master" as their own without at least asking me. I did the work. I had the money in the kits involved. Therefor I own the master. After that, if they want to make copies of the resin copy then so be it. I dont have any control over that.

Something such as a grill I would just buy several of since they really cost more to mold than to just buy it.

 

Altered States has their fuel hydro boat. Another unrightous caster (I will not mention his name) decided to cast it as A.S. no longer produced them. So what did A.S. do? Make new mold of original master and put them up everywhere for sale as the "ORIGINAL" fuel hydro. It dam near shut down the unreputable caster, along with the other unsavory dealings he had over the years. Fly by night companies will come and go. The ones that are still around have stood the test of time and alot more. Replicas and Miniatures comes to mind. Altered States, Missing Link, Comp Resins, (and some I forgot im sure).These are all companies that are reputable. They are casters that I will ALWAYS go to first and buy without question of quality.



#38 Steven Zimmerman

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 05:09 PM

I have mastered somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 model car and truck bodies that have been cast and offered for sale to the public, and probably another hundred seats, interiors, frames, dashes, hoods....etc. In most cases the master was placed in the hands of a caster, and I was compensated, either in resin copies, or cash. Once those masters were out of my hands, they were no longer my property....Someone else casts a copy, it's really not something I worry about. Now, I'm casting and marketing my own series of wheels - someone buys a set and casts them, I really have no recourse...Do I like it?....no. Am I going to lose sleep over it ? Hardly, that's just life. As an aside, I have personally heard some of the biggest names in the casting business scream bloody murder at someone possibly casting versions of their product, while quietly casting someone elses 'stuff' themselves.....I sorry it happens, get over it, go on with your life....Steve Zimmerman

#39 English Jules

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 05:18 PM

I know military modellers who take casts of kit items, for using at stowage on a truck or tank, or just to improve the kit items and for their own work.  I recently have been looking on US ebay at police car after market parts, and i can see some really poor cast items, that look like copies of someone elses poor copies of genuine items. 

 

I have a resin sidwalk water hydrant, that i got a good few years ago from the US, genuine product, but it doesnt sit flat and its pretty basic compared to the real thing i have seen in fotos.  Now if i was to update it, change it to make it more realistic in shape etc, then from what people say, i can make copies and sell it no problem.

 



#40 spkgibson

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:45 PM

I have mastered somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 model car and truck bodies that have been cast and offered for sale to the public, and probably another hundred seats, interiors, frames, dashes, hoods....etc. In most cases the master was placed in the hands of a caster, and I was compensated, either in resin copies, or cash. Once those masters were out of my hands, they were no longer my property....Someone else casts a copy, it's really not something I worry about. Now, I'm casting and marketing my own series of wheels - someone buys a set and casts them, I really have no recourse...Do I like it?....no. Am I going to lose sleep over it ? Hardly, that's just life. As an aside, I have personally heard some of the biggest names in the casting business scream bloody murder at someone possibly casting versions of their product, while quietly casting someone elses 'stuff' themselves.....I sorry it happens, get over it, go on with your life....Steve Zimmerman

Steve,

 

 

 

 

 

I have contacted Kevin about it...Same answer....The real concern I had was if the part was molded poorly....I wanted no reflection on my craftsmanship.....As I taking extreme pride in my work.


Edited by spkgibson, 04 April 2013 - 07:18 AM.