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1:8 scratch deuce


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#1 Ognib

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 10:35 AM

I'd like to say that I'm really glad to be here, in the company of some very talented & skilled modelers.

 

Also somewhat intimidated by that talent, as this my first model build since I was in my early teens.

 

I spent 30 yrs, before retiring, in auto metal shops & in my own home shop, repairing & fabbing panels & a couple of frames as well.

With that behind me, I want to scratch build this project in metal, since it's a material that I have experience with.

 

Never had a 32 & always thought they are one of the best designs ever developed, so a deuce is a logical choice for this project.

 

Since aluminum is plentiful & scraps of it are everywhere to be had for cheap or free vs brass being less common & somewhat pricy to buy, I'm researching methods & products for soldering/joining, to see if I can effectively take advantage of aluminums easy availability.

 

My plans are drawn in 1:8 from dimensions gained from Wescotts web site.

I then overlayed the drawing with tracing paper & drew it again.

32plans1_zps04f3c2ee.jpg

 

I took a piece of 1.5" x .062 aluminum angle that was laying around & cut it down the spine to make two flat pieces to work with.

After stacking 2 pieces of the appropriate length for the side rails & 4 for the top & bottom edges, I laid out my tracing paper drawings on the stacks, held with double sided tape & drilled & pinned, with 1/16 brass rod, to a 1/4" piece of pine to hold the stack securely for cutting & shaping.

frame4_zpsb26a8d31.jpg


Edited by Ognib, 28 April 2013 - 08:15 AM.


#2 Ognib

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 11:00 AM

I set the bandsaw up with a 14tpi raker blade rated for wood & soft non-ferous metals & cut the shapes just outside the draw lines.

frame6_zpscbd2a028.jpg

 

Did the final shaping on my spindle sander with 50 grit.

Since the footprint of the stacks is slender, I used a straight, square piece of maple to hold it against to insure that I got good square sides, thus identical pieces within the stack.

frame8_zps17736f02.jpg



#3 Ognib

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 11:51 AM

Making sure to transfer axle centerlines, etc to the pieces for accurate placement when joining the frame.

frame9_zpsdb8654e1.jpg

 

frame10_zps6e699629.jpg



#4 southpier

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:32 PM

this is gonna be good!



#5 comp1839

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:11 PM

aluminum.........did some one say aluminum? oh yeah, i'll be watching this. me likee, long time.



#6 Ace-Garageguy

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:23 PM

I do so enjoy watching someone work who understands what is necessary to do a good job. Very nice start, and I'll definitely be looking forward to seeing updates on this one.

 

I've been involved with unusual fabrication and tooling for all my 40+ working years, and there are some difficult issues to be overcome when joining aluminum. One, of course, is aluminum alloy's high coefficient of expansion, which makes welding and soldering of thin material especially challenging due to distortion.

 

Aluminum oxide forming on aluminum's surface when it's heated is another contributor to difficulty of joining. Dis-similar aluminum alloys sourced as scrap will also resist heat-process joining. There are various flux and non-flux using solders for aluminum alloys, but I don't have enough experience with any of them to recommend any. Of course if you're an experienced TIG welder and have the equipment, you may already have everything that you require. Some of the early, low-alloy aluminum can be welded using an oxy-hydrogen flame, similar to the oxy-acetylene process for steel (but trickier, as aluminum gives no color indication of its temperature...too hot, it just drops out of the joint).

 

Finally, due to aluminum's unusual surface characteristics, most glues and epoxies are usually less than perfect bonding solutions and tend to fail over time and with handling. The aerospace industry (which I've been involved in since the mid-'80s) has developed some special 2-part adhesives specifically for overcoming the difficulties involved with joining aluminum in structural applications, and SOME of them are available in smallish packages. All have to be mixed with a gram scale, however.


Edited by Ace-Garageguy, 24 April 2013 - 02:26 PM.


#7 Ognib

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:26 PM

Comp, LOL, we use to call it alugium.

 

Gotta say, while I've got you on the line, I've been lurking on several model sites for a few months now & I've spent considerable time studying your work & techniques.

I'm blown away, man.

 

One thing's fer sure, I gotta get myself some machine tools & take a couple of classes...


Edited by Ognib, 24 April 2013 - 02:54 PM.


#8 Ognib

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:44 PM

Ace, I've read about the characteristics of aluminum, but never encountered it for fabbing & welding, as virtually all of my 1:1 work was in steel.

So any tips & insights would be much appreciated!

I know I've a bit of study & practice to do.

I do have a lot of torch time over several years, as I didn't own a wire feed or tig until the early 90's.

Panel work was all with ox/acet & used a good miller stick with well chosen & cared for rod for my frames.

 

I did see some of Ron Covel's work back in the 80's when he was building Varners "calif star", which was alum bodied, which went on to win the AMBR trophy.

He did his panel work on it with ox/acet or perhaps ox/hyd, but done with torch none the less.

 

I've even been considering a jewlers ox/acet torch for this & see how that works.

 

Don't have very many answers yet for the aluminum thing.

If it's too troublesome, I'll just drop back & build with brass...but I gotta try...


Edited by Ognib, 24 April 2013 - 02:56 PM.


#9 Ace-Garageguy

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:16 PM

With your experience, I'm sure you can do it. If you've been doing oxy-acetylene panel work, you already have the skills...just need to work a little smaller. The coachbuilt cars in the '30s that used alloy panels were gas welded, as were later alloy-bodied cars like the Cobras.

 

I'm definitely all for seeing guys head out in new directions and do things in spite of the difficulty, and I really like your "but I gotta try " attitude.

 

The jewelers torch sounds like a very interesting idea, and I'll be fascinated to see how you work it all out. Please keep posting the process, even the parts that don't work so well first time out.

 

One of the aerospace adhesives in small packages comes from PTMW. It's some magic stuff. I'll look up the number of the product. I THINK it comes as small as pint quantities. It cures like an epoxy, is immensely strong, and can be sanded and shaped like a filler.

 

Back in the late '80s, i did a t-top conversion on a DeTomaso Pantera, and, in my ignorance, I glued the alloy frames to the steel roof panel with a 3M aerospace adhesive made primarily for composite materials and steel. After a few days the interface at the aluminum failed, and no matter how I prepared the surface of the aluminum, the joint continued to fail. That was when I began to research the peculiar bonding properties of aluminum.



#10 Kaleb

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 06:09 PM

Bingo, what is the length of those rails? They look huge.

I can't wait to see this come along. Keep it up.

#11 vintagedragfan

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 01:21 AM

nice start Ray, frame rails look great! there is a great model club in your back yard if you didn't know, KC Slammers, let me know if you are interested in coming to a meeting, again nice work!



#12 Ognib

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 03:30 AM

Bingo, what is the length of those rails? They look huge.

I can't wait to see this come along. Keep it up.

 

Tip to tip, 18 5/8"

Wheelbase is 13 1/4

 

 

 

nice start Ray, frame rails look great! there is a great model club in your back yard if you didn't know, KC Slammers, let me know if you are interested in coming to a meeting, again nice work!

 

Thanks.

Sounds like that might be informative & enjoyable.

Good way to mingle with similar interests.

More info, please.



#13 vintagedragfan

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 02:35 PM

thats cool Ray, you can check out the website for the info, KC Slammers.com, hope to see you there!



#14 Ognib

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 02:51 PM

Here's the assembly jig to hold everything to strict configuration for joining the frame pieces.

I'm using hard maple...I'm also a guitar builder & have a nice collection of maple off-cuts from neck building.

frame13_zpsa50fb48d.jpg

 

frame15_zpsff44312c.jpg

 

Top pieces "spoon" on to the bases.

This establishes the contour of the side rails.

I pinned them together vs gluing, to allow for future disassembly if needed.

frame23_zps8f683344.jpg

 

frame27_zps06c7235b.jpg

 

frame29_zpsa9161300.jpg


Edited by Ognib, 26 April 2013 - 01:15 AM.


#15 vintagedragfan

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:05 AM

excellent! looks like that is going to work out great Ray



#16 Ognib

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:40 AM

With your experience, I'm sure you can do it. If you've been doing oxy-acetylene panel work, you already have the skills...just need to work a little smaller. The coachbuilt cars in the '30s that used alloy panels were gas welded, as were later alloy-bodied cars like the Cobras.

 

I'm definitely all for seeing guys head out in new directions and do things in spite of the difficulty, and I really like your "but I gotta try " attitude.

 

The jewelers torch sounds like a very interesting idea, and I'll be fascinated to see how you work it all out. Please keep posting the process, even the parts that don't work so well first time out.

 

One of the aerospace adhesives in small packages comes from PTMW. It's some magic stuff. I'll look up the number of the product. I THINK it comes as small as pint quantities. It cures like an epoxy, is immensely strong, and can be sanded and shaped like a filler.

 

Back in the late '80s, i did a t-top conversion on a DeTomaso Pantera, and, in my ignorance, I glued the alloy frames to the steel roof panel with a 3M aerospace adhesive made primarily for composite materials and steel. After a few days the interface at the aluminum failed, and no matter how I prepared the surface of the aluminum, the joint continued to fail. That was when I began to research the peculiar bonding properties of aluminum.

 

 

I've been systematically reading through the entire big boyz archive & someone mentioned that he tigged an aluminum seat for a project.

So I'm currently looking for a small 110 volt tig unit that will effectively work with .016, which is what I think I'm going to use for body panels, to .060 for the frame...a mini tig, if you will.

The entire head of the unit would have to be mineaturized to allow getting into the small spaces of the inside of the rails, door jam corners on the body etc.

In my small, somewhat confined work space that I've set up for this project i'm beginning to think that I'd rather stay away from flamable gasses & this is pulling me away from the ox/acet jewlers torch.

A tig would be perfect in that the shielding gasses are non-flamable.

I have an explosion proof exhaust fan ducted into this room, so it's well ventilated.

 

How did your t-top project finally work out?

I assume that your persistance eventually paid off with a successful conclusion.


Edited by Ognib, 26 April 2013 - 02:04 AM.


#17 Ognib

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:44 AM

excellent! looks like that is going to work out great Ray

 

Ya, it's a good design, it holds everything nice & secure.

If I end up welding it together, will probably have to re-build the jig with a different material...not sure the maple will stand up to welding temperatures.



#18 comp1839

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:38 AM

the tig welded seat would be one of my cars, I believe. if you have any questions, ask away.



#19 Ognib

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:59 AM

I remember now.

An old style AA rail, I think, on about page 22 of the forum.

 

I'm all ears.

I'm new to working aluminum & need good info.

Is there a mini tig out there that'll fit my needs?



#20 Ognib

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 03:38 AM

Slaps self on forhead...seems as though I mis-spelled the word deuce in the thread title... :wub: